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On December 08 2010 02:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2010 01:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 00:33 ZerOfy wrote:On December 07 2010 22:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 07 2010 10:49 LagT_T wrote:
Didn't like this last cast as much as the previous ones, too much theorycrafting. i agree but it's what happens when people want to hear from top players about a patch they haven't played Where were you??! Incontrol got ganged up on.  i agreed with most of what idra and artosis were saying about the balance changes on the PTR. it's nice to have representation from different races for the discussions but it's not always for debating against each other with opposing opinions... more often it's just for different perspectives. i very often agree with artosis and idra but i'll have different reasons or a different experience that formed that opinion. and that's the strength of having guests on the show in fact i'd say that unless you've seen some posts or tweets or something indicating that there are some strong opinions in opposition to each other, you'd be better off assuming that we're not going to debate, but rather just discuss and try to describe the state of the game! I really wish you had been on that one Tyler. I think iNcontrol may have felt a little ganged up on and I think when he did, he stopped making any reasonable arguments or points. I feel like there were some points to be made that he didn't get out, and that may have made him sound like an angry kid to some people. I'm a little tired of Dan and Idra insisting that zerg takes the most apm to use effectively, and while I wouldn't debate either of them on it (they know wayyyy more than me). They are just different. Yeah you have to inject your hatches (you don't even have to look at your base), yeah you need to spread creep well, and yeah you have to micro your units. Every race has apm sinks, like, having to look away from battle almost every time you wanna make units, or having to look in your base anytime you wanna chrono something (can be done from the minimap, but anything other than the nexus takes a lot of practice). I just don't think they should be compared, because when it comes to pure #'s they just can't be. I really liked this state of the game though, probably because of the patch . Spiced it up a notch. Now I just need to find the last bit, cause for some reason I don't think the end of it made it onto my zune -_-. Also do Pro's like to participate in the PTR? Or do you just see it as a waste of your training time? I could see it being not that helpful, maybe even detrimental to your play (depending on the proposed changes).
I think the argument of "you don't play on korea, thus we have more experience" gets old really fast. Every time incontrol brings something up, you hear "oh, there are no good zergs on NA, you don't know what you're talking about". I don't see why you would keep debating versus that kind of biased defense.
Also about the pressing one button to make one unit thing, I don't get why idra and artosis were like "It's hard enough, it doesn't need more clicks". You know, as a protoss player, if I could make like 15 units from a single unit producing structure at the same time by clicking a lot, I would take that in a heartbeat.
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Yup its official. I still need to listen to that last hour. Oh well there's always tomorrow at work.
Thx for answering so promptly Tyler! I never thought about not being able to find good practice partners on the PTR.
Oh and I don't think I have heard Geoff curse in anger on Sotg, maybe in a little frustration. Its always in good fun. I really hope what he said about chat wasn't entirely true (something along the lines of Sotg not being worth it). It would never be the same without him. < so cliche its awesome
Edit: Yeah the "you don't play on Korea all the time" argument reminded me of some of Geoff's arguments as well hehehe. Its funny how opposed to phoenix they were, because of fungal. Just to see the fungal nerf reversed. I'm sure they actually saw that coming, seemed like a big change bliz just wanted to dip its toe into.
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On December 08 2010 02:48 OreoBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 02:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2010 01:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 00:33 ZerOfy wrote:On December 07 2010 22:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 07 2010 10:49 LagT_T wrote:
Didn't like this last cast as much as the previous ones, too much theorycrafting. i agree but it's what happens when people want to hear from top players about a patch they haven't played Where were you??! Incontrol got ganged up on. i agreed with most of what idra and artosis were saying about the balance changes on the PTR. it's nice to have representation from different races for the discussions but it's not always for debating against each other with opposing opinions... more often it's just for different perspectives. i very often agree with artosis and idra but i'll have different reasons or a different experience that formed that opinion. and that's the strength of having guests on the show in fact i'd say that unless you've seen some posts or tweets or something indicating that there are some strong opinions in opposition to each other, you'd be better off assuming that we're not going to debate, but rather just discuss and try to describe the state of the game! I really wish you had been on that one Tyler. I think iNcontrol may have felt a little ganged up on and I think when he did, he stopped making any reasonable arguments or points. I feel like there were some points to be made that he didn't get out, and that may have made him sound like an angry kid to some people. I'm a little tired of Dan and Idra insisting that zerg takes the most apm to use effectively, and while I wouldn't debate either of them on it (they know wayyyy more than me). They are just different. Yeah you have to inject your hatches (you don't even have to look at your base), yeah you need to spread creep well, and yeah you have to micro your units. Every race has apm sinks, like, having to look away from battle almost every time you wanna make units, or having to look in your base anytime you wanna chrono something (can be done from the minimap, but anything other than the nexus takes a lot of practice). I just don't think they should be compared, because when it comes to pure #'s they just can't be. I really liked this state of the game though, probably because of the patch . Spiced it up a notch. Now I just need to find the last bit, cause for some reason I don't think the end of it made it onto my zune -_-. Also do Pro's like to participate in the PTR? Or do you just see it as a waste of your training time? I could see it being not that helpful, maybe even detrimental to your play (depending on the proposed changes). I think the argument of "you don't play on korea, thus we have more experience" gets old really fast. Every time incontrol brings something up, you hear "oh, there are no good zergs on NA, you don't know what you're talking about". I don't see why you would keep debating versus that kind of biased defense. Also about the pressing one button to make one unit thing, I don't get why idra and artosis were like "It's hard enough, it doesn't need more clicks". You know, as a protoss player, if I could make like 15 units from a single unit producing structure at the same time by clicking a lot, I would take that in a heartbeat.
Idra and Artosis referencing Korean server experience in this situation was perfectly justified
They brought up a build that is presently only seen on the Korean server.
Incontrol was trying to claim that Infestor isn't a common counter to phoenix play based on the NA server which objectively does have the least amount of high level or successful zerg players between the big 3 servers.
Idra himself said he would love to be wrong on the phoenix build time being overpowered. No one was saying with definitive fact that it is overpowered, they were just suggesting reasons why it might be, while Inc was arguing reasons why it wouldn't be and they brought up more relevant experience, and rather concede this perfectly logical reasoning Inc chose to take offence, but that was kind of a theme for that show. Bad day maybe, who knows.
And no real point on even mentioning the second part of your post, we could go back and forth saying derp derp if I had this unit or this feature I would definitely trade. For instance I'd take the W key from Protoss for my hatches or larva, tyvm
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
you guys should listen to floor exercise he knows what everyone was thinking/doing
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Bring back PainUser, screw the haters!
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I feel like InControl should use sarcasm tags more frequently because I think he was meaning his comment seriously but he could always be screwing with our minds...
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Netherlands4511 Posts
I <3 Incontrol on SOTG and everyone should cut him some slack cuz he is a big part of why this show is awesome.
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On December 08 2010 04:17 Sleight wrote:
I feel like InControl should use sarcasm tags more frequently because I think he was meaning his comment seriously but he could always be screwing with our minds...
I don't think he was being sarcastic, because floor exercise's post was level headed and sound. At least in my opinion form watching the show as well. And everyone knows incontrol is probably the least immune to criticism from forum randoms out of all the pro's, so one can imagine the chat trolls putting him a bit on tilt for not being able to articulate his argument well.
And yeah incontrol you are awesome. Don't be affected by the hate it's only cause now you're an e-celebrity =).
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On December 08 2010 04:20 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I <3 Incontrol on SOTG and everyone should cut him some slack cuz he is a big part of why this show is awesome.
Will you ever be a guest on SOTG?
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"They brought up a build that is presently only seen on the Korean server." Like you or him or anyone knows this. Like strategies don't translate well league to league (some "good" strategies are terrible at certain low levels of play.), they don't server to server. Even Europe is different from Korea and NA. Someone could be playing that build on NA server but you might not know it because he is stuck in Plat getting 1 base roach rushed every single game, which is honestly not a bad idea when you see really good protoss players doing dumb (okay not dumb, greedy) things like pylon pylon nexus.
Maybe he was offended cause he just got back from Korea? His argument about the phoenix and the infestor was probably more based on that fact that zergs on both servers never have infestors by the time 3-4 phoenix fly into your base, if your lucky you have a bunch of queens and hydras.
Anyways for the first reason mentioned I kinda always feel like that (we play against Koreans) argument is a poor one (I will admit I felt iNc didn't do a great job of presenting an argument, not that I care), at least compared to an actual reason to why a units decreased build time effects the game. I do like your last point about arguing from race to race and it does always end up in this dumb rock paper scissors of
"but this units beats this unit!"
or
"this ability counters that"
A lot of games are like that heh. And that kind of bickering rarely leads anywhere. I feel like blizzard has done a pretty good job of diversifying the units and abilities of the races, which just naturally makes them hard to be compared side by side. That being said, its always entertaining if Grack, Artosis, and iNc bicker ^___^. Makes the work day go by much faster.
Anyways I hope I'm not just trolling you Floor Exercise. I think iNc felt like he was trapped in a corner and just didn't respond well, and I wanted to stand up for him.
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Great show, thank you.
Would it be possible to ever get WhiteRa to appear on SOTG? We can pretend that we want to know how he balances SC2 and the married life, but what we really want is just him talking in his glorious english while Day9 and iNcontrol are laughing their asses off?
On a more serious note, perhaps get Jinro after GSL3 (regardless how well he places or not), i think alot of people want to hear more from him.
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On December 08 2010 03:57 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 02:48 OreoBoi wrote:On December 08 2010 02:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2010 01:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 00:33 ZerOfy wrote:On December 07 2010 22:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 07 2010 10:49 LagT_T wrote:
Didn't like this last cast as much as the previous ones, too much theorycrafting. i agree but it's what happens when people want to hear from top players about a patch they haven't played Where were you??! Incontrol got ganged up on. i agreed with most of what idra and artosis were saying about the balance changes on the PTR. it's nice to have representation from different races for the discussions but it's not always for debating against each other with opposing opinions... more often it's just for different perspectives. i very often agree with artosis and idra but i'll have different reasons or a different experience that formed that opinion. and that's the strength of having guests on the show in fact i'd say that unless you've seen some posts or tweets or something indicating that there are some strong opinions in opposition to each other, you'd be better off assuming that we're not going to debate, but rather just discuss and try to describe the state of the game! I really wish you had been on that one Tyler. I think iNcontrol may have felt a little ganged up on and I think when he did, he stopped making any reasonable arguments or points. I feel like there were some points to be made that he didn't get out, and that may have made him sound like an angry kid to some people. I'm a little tired of Dan and Idra insisting that zerg takes the most apm to use effectively, and while I wouldn't debate either of them on it (they know wayyyy more than me). They are just different. Yeah you have to inject your hatches (you don't even have to look at your base), yeah you need to spread creep well, and yeah you have to micro your units. Every race has apm sinks, like, having to look away from battle almost every time you wanna make units, or having to look in your base anytime you wanna chrono something (can be done from the minimap, but anything other than the nexus takes a lot of practice). I just don't think they should be compared, because when it comes to pure #'s they just can't be. I really liked this state of the game though, probably because of the patch . Spiced it up a notch. Now I just need to find the last bit, cause for some reason I don't think the end of it made it onto my zune -_-. Also do Pro's like to participate in the PTR? Or do you just see it as a waste of your training time? I could see it being not that helpful, maybe even detrimental to your play (depending on the proposed changes). I think the argument of "you don't play on korea, thus we have more experience" gets old really fast. Every time incontrol brings something up, you hear "oh, there are no good zergs on NA, you don't know what you're talking about". I don't see why you would keep debating versus that kind of biased defense. Also about the pressing one button to make one unit thing, I don't get why idra and artosis were like "It's hard enough, it doesn't need more clicks". You know, as a protoss player, if I could make like 15 units from a single unit producing structure at the same time by clicking a lot, I would take that in a heartbeat. Idra and Artosis referencing Korean server experience in this situation was perfectly justified They brought up a build that is presently only seen on the Korean server. Incontrol was trying to claim that Infestor isn't a common counter to phoenix play based on the NA server which objectively does have the least amount of high level or successful zerg players between the big 3 servers. Idra himself said he would love to be wrong on the phoenix build time being overpowered. No one was saying with definitive fact that it is overpowered, they were just suggesting reasons why it might be, while Inc was arguing reasons why it wouldn't be and they brought up more relevant experience, and rather concede this perfectly logical reasoning Inc chose to take offence, but that was kind of a theme for that show. Bad day maybe, who knows. And no real point on even mentioning the second part of your post, we could go back and forth saying derp derp if I had this unit or this feature I would definitely trade. For instance I'd take the W key from Protoss for my hatches or larva, tyvm
If you listened to Incontrol, you would hear he said: early pheonix are not countered by infestor, because infestors are not out at that point. How is defending that build now impossible because infestors can't fungal air when you can't have fungal at that point anyways.
Also that was the point of my second point. It's pointless to argue over macro mechanics, so I dislike artosis and idra complaining about it because they have to click more.
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I relistened to the part of the podcast where Incontrol gets offended and he kind of has a right to be. Basically you have two of the biggest zerg whiners doing what they do best and then when InControl brings up the fact that they have no experience they say they just flip-flop and say they would be glad if it wasn't imbalanced as if that was at all relevant.
Sure Artosis and Idra have ridiculous game knowledge but calling incontrol's arguments bad just because he is not on their level is just insulting and stupid considering they are theory-crafting. Idra himself admitted it had been only a couple weeks at most since the protoss air build had become popular and then he went on to call it overpowered. It is just a shame sometimes.
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On December 08 2010 04:20 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I <3 Incontrol on SOTG and everyone should cut him some slack cuz he is a big part of why this show is awesome.
I 100% agree, he's great on the show. Some of the arguments sounded a little uncomfortable, but after listening to the cast a second time it sounds like Geoff's bad mood stemmed heavily from the chat. Looking at completely anonomous feedback in real time as you're doing something is a recipe for disaster.
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All Incontrol really said was that on the NA server, he hadn't seen that many Zerg's rely on fungal to stop phoenixes, and he prefaced it by saying that he doesn't use phoenixes in his play that much anyways.
To be honest, he was pretty reasonable for most of the cast, and was maybe annoyed with Artosis and IdrA whenever they put on their "I play in Korean so I'm more right than you" hats or read some crap on the chat.
Just another day at the office, I say.
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Did anyone happen to record the preshow?
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Is it just me or this show is lack of guests who play Terran?
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I'm just going to throw in this post regardless of whatever the current discussion is in the thread. Maybe I should just make a new thread about it (lol another shitty thread). But I really think the best model for an awesome forum that encourages the best posters to post and the shittier ones to be banned already exists. It's called Elitist Jerks and it exists for WoW so I'm kind of surprised JP has never mentioned it. Elitist Jerks is pretty hardcore in its rules for posting and I don't think all the rules will work for Team Liquid but there seriously needs to be changes for the strategy forum for SC2.
Incontrol mentioned a few casts ago that the greatest advantage the Koreans have that non-Koreans don't have is the accessibility, dissemination and discussion of GOOD information. Geographically and culturally this makes it much easier for Koreans, but at it's best, isn't that exactly what the fucking internet is there for? Every single pro-level player that has come on SotG has said they don't bother with forums or hardly ever do. Am I the only one that feels this is completely ass backwards? The top players should feel obligated to look through the strategy forum to keep up with the current treads and discussions to improve their game. How else are they suppose to congregate between major events? The rest of the world doesn't have the luxury of the same progaming infrastructure or geographic density of top level players that Korea has. Team Liquid should be a place that helps alleviate these problems, not compound them.
There is absolutely no reason that a forum like Elitist Jerks doesn't exist for a community this diverse and for a game this complex. Why did all you top players that used to post or read these forums regularly allow yourselves to be run out by droves of idiots that come up with asinine arguments like "Idra's not that good, he only made it to the round of 32 in the GSL and didn't win the whole thing lolololol I don't have to listen to him!"
Anyway that's my 2 cents. I could go into the nitty gritty. Like how I think any new thread created in the vein of "I'm a silver league player looking to improve my game" needs to be an insta-ban. That's not because I think they are a bad person or aren't serious about improving. But because that information is already out there and creating a new thread about it clutters up the forums and makes it harder for everybody else to find what they need.
This unabashed shitfest needs to end. How many Top 32 MLG players have made a new thread in the SC2 Strategy forums in the past month? If someone told me zero I wouldn't be surprised. What I am surprised about is how the community doesn't see how emulating the conveniences of Korea while not in Korea isn't a major priority. Even Day9 is totally complacent and can't see it ever changing. It absolutely should fucking change. It needs to change. I find this complacency much more offensive than all of Incontrol's rantings, racists remarks and confrontational opinions combined. I get upset about the comments about the forums every single SotG. Why the fuck aren't people more upset about this?
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Enjoyed this episode. Hugs to Artosis, that cuddly fluffbunny.
Edit: Oh yeah, about the "elite highlight posts" -- can't you just implement a system where it's possible to "collapse" a thread so it only shows pro posts? That way regular joes could interject to pad the discussion, but professional gamers could still side-step the general idiocy generated, and pretend they're the only ones participating.
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I agree with day9, they have to be careful not to turn the cast into a shitty TL debate thread. It sure was close.
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EPT
