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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 303

Forum Index > SC2 General
54608 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 301 302 303 304 305 2731 Next
RationalGaze
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom121 Posts
December 01 2010 12:54 GMT
#6041
Sweet, thought there wouldn't be one this week! Downloading...

Too bad I can't get the pre-show at work (damn firewall). Will have to get it at home later.
но ни шагу назад
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
December 01 2010 13:22 GMT
#6042
Two weeks ago iNcontrol kept saying over and over that tournaments aren't about determining the best player but are about determining the winner, and then he argues that BO1 sucks because it doesn't determine the best player.
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
December 01 2010 13:26 GMT
#6043
The finnish poem was so well read that i didn't understand a word!
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
Mac223
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway8 Posts
December 01 2010 13:26 GMT
#6044
Nothing like getting home after an exam and finding a freshly baked cake of the game ready to be devoured.
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
December 01 2010 13:44 GMT
#6045
On December 01 2010 22:26 Grettin wrote:
The finnish poem was so well read that i didn't understand a word!


Yeah, InControl totally nailed that.

Meaning he talked better finnish than me cos I didn't understand a single syllable of that poem.
And I've lived among finns for 20 something years.

Sorry Geoff but Day[9] was so much better in one of his funsies.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
December 01 2010 14:00 GMT
#6046
On December 01 2010 22:22 hugman wrote:
Two weeks ago iNcontrol kept saying over and over that tournaments aren't about determining the best player but are about determining the winner, and then he argues that BO1 sucks because it doesn't determine the best player.


The tournament doesn't determine the best player because certain players are better against other players/races, it doesn't mean a bo3/bo5 isn't a good way to determine which of a certain 2 players are better.
Starfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria699 Posts
December 01 2010 14:05 GMT
#6047
The audio quality is from this lee guy is so bad, my head hurts :/
Greek Mythology 2.0: Imagine Sisyphos as a man who wants to watch all videos on youtube... and Tityos as one who HAS to watch all of them.
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
December 01 2010 14:15 GMT
#6048
You my SOTG friends, are why I dont hate wednesdays. Keep it up and let the haters hate!
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-01 15:08:18
December 01 2010 15:07 GMT
#6049
Geoff so nearly had that extended series argument if he'd worded it right; Nony and Lee were saying that the tournament performance is taken as a whole when in fact the tournament performance is taken as a whole in certain arbitrary situations, i.e. when two players meet eachother a second time.

If, for example, 2 players meet in the loser's bracket who have not played eachother before, and one of them has lost more games than the other, then MLG correctly does not account for that. But when the two players are playing for the second time, it randomly changes and suddenly the amount of games and not series that they have won or lost becomes important.

It makes no sense; both players have lost 1 series and won x amount of series, they both deserve their spot.

Don't want to start another 50 page, dull debate though. As far as I'm concerned that's the be all and end of it. MLG counts games not series when 2 players face eachother more than once, but not in any other situation.
nehl
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany270 Posts
December 01 2010 15:11 GMT
#6050
On December 01 2010 23:15 DyEnasTy wrote:
You my SOTG friends, are why I dont hate wednesdays. Keep it up and let the haters hate!


sign
on wendnesday its podcast time. nothing else im looking forward to on wednesdays
hope you keep it up.
btw. a cast with TLO would be awesome
Siffer
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States467 Posts
December 01 2010 15:13 GMT
#6051
RE: Extended Series.

Lower bracket should be considered a separate tournament from Upper bracket. You get knocked out of one tournament and get placed in another.

At least that is how I have viewed it for the past 10 years I have played CS, WC3, and SC2.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
December 01 2010 15:21 GMT
#6052
On December 01 2010 23:15 DyEnasTy wrote:
You my SOTG friends, are why I dont hate wednesdays. Keep it up and let the haters hate!


Personally I love wednesdays now because I meet up with some friends in a nearby town and I get to listen to SotG on the train. S'awesome.
LittLeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden7973 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-01 15:25:18
December 01 2010 15:24 GMT
#6053
Hahaha I love Geoff's comments about the Awkward Stage Guy :D:D:D:D
1:28:00 and forward
☆Grubby ☆| Tod|DeMusliM|ThorZaiN|SaSe|Moon|Mana| ☆HerO ☆
Luvz
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Norway356 Posts
December 01 2010 15:25 GMT
#6054
the download link is extremely slow!
Norway ~ Home of the brave <3
gerundium
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands786 Posts
December 01 2010 15:27 GMT
#6055
On December 02 2010 00:25 Luvz wrote:
the download link is extremely slow!


Yes indeed it is. im just getting 40 kb/s down which is just sad.
xrayEU
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden571 Posts
December 01 2010 15:31 GMT
#6056
Yeah idd, go to work at a Wednesday is not that harsh because you know that an episode of SoTG will be uploaded during the day. And woooooow 177min of an amazing podcast lets the day go by so fast, thanks guys
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
December 01 2010 15:32 GMT
#6057
On December 02 2010 00:13 Siffer wrote:
RE: Extended Series.

Lower bracket should be considered a separate tournament from Upper bracket. You get knocked out of one tournament and get placed in another.

At least that is how I have viewed it for the past 10 years I have played CS, WC3, and SC2.

Ugh I can't believe I keep getting drawn back into commenting about extended series... but like, your view blows my mind. They're 2 different tournaments? At the same event, with the same players, competing for the same prize money and ranking, with structures logically linked together, etc... I can't fathom how you can see a double elim competition as having 2 separate tournaments going on.

The view that tournaments have a memory of a player's performance is actually shared by both sides of this debate. Both views recognize that a tournament remembers that a player has won or lost rounds because that is essential to a bracket. The extended series view wants to remember another thing: which players a player wins or loses against. There is no debate that if you care about who you've had to face, then playing one bo7 is better than playing 2 bo3's. (Winning the first bo3 and losing the second bo3 should obviously be regarded as an even performance between those players, but one player gets eliminated and the other goes on. No reason has been discovered for weighting the second bo3 more. Attempts at it have been mere restatements of the fundamental position of those opposed to extended series.)

What confuses me is that everyone judges a player's path through the bracket based on who he has had to play, judging more difficult paths as greater accomplishments, and yet they do not want a tournament structure that utilizes that wisdom in order to improve its ability to advance the better player. If we as subjective judges of tournament performance find memory of the identities of a player's opponents valuable, and we have one small way of implementing this information into an objective format, then why not use it?
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-01 15:40:33
December 01 2010 15:39 GMT
#6058
On December 02 2010 00:32 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 00:13 Siffer wrote:
RE: Extended Series.

Lower bracket should be considered a separate tournament from Upper bracket. You get knocked out of one tournament and get placed in another.

At least that is how I have viewed it for the past 10 years I have played CS, WC3, and SC2.

Ugh I can't believe I keep getting drawn back into commenting about extended series... but like, your view blows my mind. They're 2 different tournaments? At the same event, with the same players, competing for the same prize money and ranking, with structures logically linked together, etc... I can't fathom how you can see a double elim competition as having 2 separate tournaments going on.

The view that tournaments have a memory of a player's performance is actually shared by both sides of this debate. Both views recognize that a tournament remembers that a player has won or lost rounds because that is essential to a bracket. The extended series view wants to remember another thing: which players a player wins or loses against. There is no debate that if you care about who you've had to face, then playing one bo7 is better than playing 2 bo3's. (Winning the first bo3 and losing the second bo3 should obviously be regarded as an even performance between those players, but one player gets eliminated and the other goes on. No reason has been discovered for weighting the second bo3 more. Attempts at it have been mere restatements of the fundamental position of those opposed to extended series.)

What confuses me is that everyone judges a player's path through the bracket based on who he has had to play, judging more difficult paths as greater accomplishments, and yet they do not want a tournament structure that utilizes that wisdom in order to improve its ability to advance the better player. If we as subjective judges of tournament performance find memory of the identities of a player's opponents valuable, and we have one small way of implementing this information into an objective format, then why not use it?


But in the podcast you argue that there is a tournament performance, not just a series of show matches, but extended series is not helping judge tournament performance, it's helping judge the performance between those 2 players. If someone wins the first bo3 and loses the second bo3, yes it's an even performance, but only in the games played between those two individuals. In terms of tournament performance, one of those players has lost more series than the other guy, and he goes out.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
December 01 2010 15:39 GMT
#6059
but as long as both players are in the losers bracket, both have lost matches. the initial winner has lost to someone that the initial loser hasn't, while the initial loser has gone undefeated against more opponents than the winner. the loser already dealt with his earned disadvantage, which was having to get through the loser bracket. its not fair to give it back to him because he happened to run into the same guy again.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-01 15:56:59
December 01 2010 15:55 GMT
#6060
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