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On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more.
It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
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On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
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On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
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I like how - when it comes down to nagging organisations about the lack of growth in the non-Korean community - everybody is only mentioning the tournament organisers, and nobody the non-Korean teams who take all the money they get - whether it be from the foreign community via merchandise or from foreign companies via sponsorship - and dump it all onto the Korean scene.
And no, I am not saying that they should give foreign players more money, but if one of them would open a teamhouse and start forstering talent outside of Korea by giving promising players a chance to live and train without having to worrying about how to get money for rent or food (like catz is doing for that one dude), that would be so nice.
And I am not saying that the Korean players do not deserve the money they get. With the insane amount of hours they practise they probably earn every penny. Just pointing out that everybody only talks about tournament organisers, not team organisers.
edit: to be honest, fostering foreign talent should be the duty of the teams in the first place, not that of the tournament organisers.
edit2: also really starting to love SotG. Whatever they changed in the past few episodes, they are doing it right! :D
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On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
I bet you I would be way better at SC2 if I didn't have to work 50 hours a week. Pesky bills and student loans making me lazy. Clearly I need to sacrifice more. All rammen all the time, no work and apply for food stamps. Time to see how much my girlfriend loves me.
Seriously, I understand that some NA players are entitled, but some of them just cannot play as much as they need to and pay the bills.
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On April 13 2013 03:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". I bet you I would be way better at SC2 if I didn't have to work 50 hours a week. Pesky bills and student loans making me lazy. Clearly I need to sacrifice more. All rammen all the time, no work and apply for food stamps. Time to see how much my girlfriend loves me. Seriously, I understand that some NA players are entitled, but some of them just cannot play as much as they need to and pay the bills.
I am pretty convinced that most players in question wouldn't even be remotely able to deal with the living standard provided by a Korean pro house.
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On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans.
How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level?
That is mainly who my post was addressing.
If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy.
Suppy, is a full time pre-med student, and is good enough to get picked up by the biggest NA Esports team.
Scarlett was in high school, thats still 40 hours a week 8-3. (Thats the same fucking thing as a job in time-spent)
How are either of those different than working 40 hours a week to afford your rent/food.
I am not saying you will live in luxury.. but u can definitely get by with enough to focus on SC2.
I am sorry, but you cant convince me that its impossible to work and get good if you really try.
Artosis did it in BW, when the skill gap was MUCH higher.
Again, I am not saying every1 has the time to beat Koreans. But every1 has the time necessary to get good enough to get noticed by a western team, which can eventually lead to you getting your full-time sponsorship.
IF they can, and you cant, just accept that maybe you arent meant to be a pro-gamer, because people who had the same opportunities, succeeded where you failed. It is not any different in ANY other career in life.
They were better than you = they succeed at it.
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On April 13 2013 03:52 Whoranzone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:25 Plansix wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". I bet you I would be way better at SC2 if I didn't have to work 50 hours a week. Pesky bills and student loans making me lazy. Clearly I need to sacrifice more. All rammen all the time, no work and apply for food stamps. Time to see how much my girlfriend loves me. Seriously, I understand that some NA players are entitled, but some of them just cannot play as much as they need to and pay the bills. I am pretty convinced that most players in question wouldn't even be remotely able to deal with the living standard provided by a Korean pro house.
But we won't ever know, because there is nothing in NA that even resembles a Korean pro house for a talented player to go to. The only way they can even hope to practice on that level is to somehow get someone to sponsor them to go to Korea and get accepted to a Korean pro house. The flight to Korea alone can cost as much as my mortgage payment. Its not a crazy or entitled idea to have a place to practice has hard as the Koreans. Right now, that's not possible for more NA players, because none of the teams have that sort of system set up.
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On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans. How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level? That is mainly who my post was addressing. If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy. Suppy, is a full time pre-med student, and is good enough to get picked up by the biggest NA Esports team. Scarlett was in high school, thats still 40 hours a week 8-3. (Thats the same fucking thing as a job in time-spent) How are either of those different than working 40 hours a week to afford your rent/food. I am not saying you will live in luxury.. but u can definitely get by with enough to focus on SC2. I am sorry, but you cant convince me that its impossible to work and get good if you really try. Artosis did it in BW, when the skill gap was MUCH higher. Again, I am not saying every1 has the time to beat Koreans. But every1 has the time necessary to get good enough to get noticed by a western team, which can eventually lead to you getting your full-time sponsorship. IF they can, and you cant, just accept that maybe you arent meant to be a pro-gamer, because people who had the same opportunities, succeeded where you failed. It is not any different in ANY other career in life. They were better than you = they succeed at it.
No foreigners bridged the skill gap in BW. Artosis never even qualified for WCG. Hell, even Idra who went to train on the CJ B team still sucked in comparison to your average pro gamer. You seem to think hard work beats talent 100% of the time, but you're wrong. It just happens that players such as Scarlett, Life and Flash are all extremely talented and that's the reason they got noticed in the first place. From there they were able to put in 10-12 hours a day every day in training, but not before that.
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On April 13 2013 04:01 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans. How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level? That is mainly who my post was addressing. If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy. Suppy, is a full time pre-med student, and is good enough to get picked up by the biggest NA Esports team. Scarlett was in high school, thats still 40 hours a week 8-3. (Thats the same fucking thing as a job in time-spent) How are either of those different than working 40 hours a week to afford your rent/food. I am not saying you will live in luxury.. but u can definitely get by with enough to focus on SC2. I am sorry, but you cant convince me that its impossible to work and get good if you really try. Artosis did it in BW, when the skill gap was MUCH higher. Again, I am not saying every1 has the time to beat Koreans. But every1 has the time necessary to get good enough to get noticed by a western team, which can eventually lead to you getting your full-time sponsorship. IF they can, and you cant, just accept that maybe you arent meant to be a pro-gamer, because people who had the same opportunities, succeeded where you failed. It is not any different in ANY other career in life. They were better than you = they succeed at it. No foreigners bridged the skill gap in BW. Artosis never even qualified for WCG. Hell, even Idra who went to train on the CJ B team still sucked in comparison to your average pro gamer. You seem to think hard work beats talent 100% of the time, but you're wrong. It just happens that players such as Scarlett, Life and Flash are all extremely talented and that's the reason they got noticed in the first place. From there they were able to put in 10-12 hours a day every day in training, but not before that.
Thats not really the point. The point is that it is alot easier for koreans to be put into a position where they can work hard and succesed.
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On April 13 2013 04:09 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 04:01 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans. How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level? That is mainly who my post was addressing. If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy. Suppy, is a full time pre-med student, and is good enough to get picked up by the biggest NA Esports team. Scarlett was in high school, thats still 40 hours a week 8-3. (Thats the same fucking thing as a job in time-spent) How are either of those different than working 40 hours a week to afford your rent/food. I am not saying you will live in luxury.. but u can definitely get by with enough to focus on SC2. I am sorry, but you cant convince me that its impossible to work and get good if you really try. Artosis did it in BW, when the skill gap was MUCH higher. Again, I am not saying every1 has the time to beat Koreans. But every1 has the time necessary to get good enough to get noticed by a western team, which can eventually lead to you getting your full-time sponsorship. IF they can, and you cant, just accept that maybe you arent meant to be a pro-gamer, because people who had the same opportunities, succeeded where you failed. It is not any different in ANY other career in life. They were better than you = they succeed at it. No foreigners bridged the skill gap in BW. Artosis never even qualified for WCG. Hell, even Idra who went to train on the CJ B team still sucked in comparison to your average pro gamer. You seem to think hard work beats talent 100% of the time, but you're wrong. It just happens that players such as Scarlett, Life and Flash are all extremely talented and that's the reason they got noticed in the first place. From there they were able to put in 10-12 hours a day every day in training, but not before that. Thats not really the point. The point is that it is alot easier for koreans to be put into a position where they can work hard and succesed.
He was saying that any foreigner can work a full time job and also practice SC2 full time. I was saying that's wrong, and as a matter of fact players such as Artosis quit their job around the time of WCG so they could practice full time. On what CatZ was saying, I haven't watched the most recent SotG yet so I don't know enough to form an opinion.
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On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:
And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans.
How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level?
That is mainly who my post was addressing.
Uhm, who would these foreign players be which you refer to in your first paragraph?
And to your second paragraph: It depends on which competitive level you are talking about. There are a lot of athletes that receive salary without being at the top.
Also: Something that I always ask myself when I read these posts: If everything is so easily doable as it is always said by these people, then why don't these people proof their words by doing it? You don't need a pro gamer license anymore, you can just do it if you have two functioning hands.
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On April 13 2013 04:12 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 04:09 Hider wrote:On April 13 2013 04:01 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans. How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level? That is mainly who my post was addressing. If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy. Suppy, is a full time pre-med student, and is good enough to get picked up by the biggest NA Esports team. Scarlett was in high school, thats still 40 hours a week 8-3. (Thats the same fucking thing as a job in time-spent) How are either of those different than working 40 hours a week to afford your rent/food. I am not saying you will live in luxury.. but u can definitely get by with enough to focus on SC2. I am sorry, but you cant convince me that its impossible to work and get good if you really try. Artosis did it in BW, when the skill gap was MUCH higher. Again, I am not saying every1 has the time to beat Koreans. But every1 has the time necessary to get good enough to get noticed by a western team, which can eventually lead to you getting your full-time sponsorship. IF they can, and you cant, just accept that maybe you arent meant to be a pro-gamer, because people who had the same opportunities, succeeded where you failed. It is not any different in ANY other career in life. They were better than you = they succeed at it. No foreigners bridged the skill gap in BW. Artosis never even qualified for WCG. Hell, even Idra who went to train on the CJ B team still sucked in comparison to your average pro gamer. You seem to think hard work beats talent 100% of the time, but you're wrong. It just happens that players such as Scarlett, Life and Flash are all extremely talented and that's the reason they got noticed in the first place. From there they were able to put in 10-12 hours a day every day in training, but not before that. Thats not really the point. The point is that it is alot easier for koreans to be put into a position where they can work hard and succesed. He was saying that any foreigner can work a full time job and also practice SC2 full time. I was saying that's wrong, and as a matter of fact players such as Artosis quit their job around the time of WCG so they could practice full time. On what CatZ was saying, I haven't watched the most recent SotG yet so I don't know enough to form an opinion.
Catz is saying that the only way the NA will ever hope to catch up with Korea is if talented players have a place like a Korean team house, where they can practice full time. His main argument is without the exposure and money that WCS will bring, it will be harder for NA teams and players to set those up. And with the huge influx of Korean players into NA WCS, it is harder to justify a team house or for new talent to put their life on hold to give SC2 a shot.
Artosis argues that hyping shit out of NA Code A might be a way to get them the exposure. It is going to be a problem that the NA scene is going to have to solve.
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On April 13 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 04:12 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 04:09 Hider wrote:On April 13 2013 04:01 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans. How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level? That is mainly who my post was addressing. If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy. Suppy, is a full time pre-med student, and is good enough to get picked up by the biggest NA Esports team. Scarlett was in high school, thats still 40 hours a week 8-3. (Thats the same fucking thing as a job in time-spent) How are either of those different than working 40 hours a week to afford your rent/food. I am not saying you will live in luxury.. but u can definitely get by with enough to focus on SC2. I am sorry, but you cant convince me that its impossible to work and get good if you really try. Artosis did it in BW, when the skill gap was MUCH higher. Again, I am not saying every1 has the time to beat Koreans. But every1 has the time necessary to get good enough to get noticed by a western team, which can eventually lead to you getting your full-time sponsorship. IF they can, and you cant, just accept that maybe you arent meant to be a pro-gamer, because people who had the same opportunities, succeeded where you failed. It is not any different in ANY other career in life. They were better than you = they succeed at it. No foreigners bridged the skill gap in BW. Artosis never even qualified for WCG. Hell, even Idra who went to train on the CJ B team still sucked in comparison to your average pro gamer. You seem to think hard work beats talent 100% of the time, but you're wrong. It just happens that players such as Scarlett, Life and Flash are all extremely talented and that's the reason they got noticed in the first place. From there they were able to put in 10-12 hours a day every day in training, but not before that. Thats not really the point. The point is that it is alot easier for koreans to be put into a position where they can work hard and succesed. He was saying that any foreigner can work a full time job and also practice SC2 full time. I was saying that's wrong, and as a matter of fact players such as Artosis quit their job around the time of WCG so they could practice full time. On what CatZ was saying, I haven't watched the most recent SotG yet so I don't know enough to form an opinion. Catz is saying that the only way the NA will ever hope to catch up with Korea is if talented players have a place like a Korean team house, where they can practice full time. His main argument is without the exposure and money that WCS will bring, it will be harder for NA teams and players to set those up. And with the huge influx of Korean players into NA WCS, it is harder to justify a team house or for new talent to put their life on hold to give SC2 a shot. Artosis argues that hyping shit out of NA Code A might be a way to get them the exposure. It is going to be a problem that the NA scene is going to have to solve.
They also extrapolated that it would take around 5 years at least to catch up. Does anyone really think Blizzard is going to keep dumping $1.6M/year into this once the final expansion has released? Unless they add some workable and profitable scheme of microtransactions to SC2 it's hard to imagine them justifying continuing the WCS in its current form past LotV release.
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On April 13 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
Artosis argues that hyping shit out of NA Code A might be a way to get them the exposure. It is going to be a problem that the NA scene is going to have to solve.
Do we actually have any details about the Challenger Division? Are they played offline? If it is played online, how many Koreans participate in this? Is there prize money in Challenger Division? Because worst case it's just a regular online cup.
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the problem is that the prize for Code S is like $300 for last place. That means Code A, even winning it will be less than that. $300/3 months is not enough,
Though if the level of play is low enough that those with a full time job can make it into Code A, then it could work out.
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If it were as easy as just play 10-12 hours a day we'd have plenty of amazing foreigners. The issues are a lot deeper and complex than just play X amount each day and you become gosu. I'm not sure why this is the thing that's being constantly brought up as the difference with no nuance.
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On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more.
Scarlett is great example of why Catz is right.
Catz noted that Scarlett made it to IPL by winning a Playhem tournament with no Koreans. And then at IPL she beat a a single Korean. But then at WCS Canada and NA she dominated every everyone and totally broke out. If WCS Canada and WCS NA had been half Korean does anyone think Scarlett would have won at her current skill level? Her wins in the WCS were what got her to Korea and gave her the ability to train full time. And NOW she's beating MVP. Her success is very much a result of WCS Canada and NA.
That's why Catz said that he preferred what Blizzard did last year with the WCS country competition, specifically because it helped players like Scarlett get off the ground.
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On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". If Scarlett can get good enough from her parents house, why cant the countless other NA/EU players who ARE living in a pro-house or ARE living without worrying about expenses, get to the same talent level she did? Because they are lazy.
You are underestimating talent to a comical degree. Why can Scarlett get into GM after 4 months of playing SC2 with no RTS experience behind it (only played Dota as far as I know)? Why could Kolll, the German BW player, get rank B on ICCUP after 4 months of playing (whilst being 14 years old), and get Korean-esque mechanics in such a short period of time? Why can some piano players obtain a far higher mechanical level than other pianists with the same practice regimen (no, not EVERY Chinese pianist gets to play in front of thousands of people....). Some people are more talented than others, and yes, Life (pun intended) is unfair.
As for yesterdays episode; I would have loved to hear what Artosis, Moonglade and CatZ would say about the age restriction limit, which hurts an extremely talented player in HeroMarine. Now that is a potential killing blow to any aspiring youngster who wants to give progaming a shot.
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(sorry for the english)
I really like catz point of view, it is interesting and there are some really good points.
I think that it is interesting to see that most of the koreans going to play the WCS NA are from a foreign team (artosis pointed it out at one moment).
Most of the concerns here are about the growth of e-sport in NA, that could be slowered by these koreans wining everything.
Here we are talking about foreign manager who wants their korean players to play WCS NA. Why are they doing that if it is a brake to their own esport ? Let's say Jaedong wins. EG will be happy, having maybe more sponsorts etc. What they do with their money ? It's their choice, their responsability but they can hire some good american guys and try to train them better, they can develop their team house in the US etc.
It is one point that should be in all minds: these koreans work for a foreign team mostly.
Catz and other people are trying to compare the situation with soccer, but they do it wrong mostly. When catz says that is is because the US developped their soccer alone that they can now be decent it is false. First many countries or mostly clubs in europe are a perfect counterexample. It is by playing the champions league that you get used to it, event if you loose against the european top8. And secondly the growth of US soccer i also highly linked to the increase of the number of american players who plays in Europe. It is the same thing with south-america, where players have to go to europe to keep their country at a high standard. It is interesting to see that so few foreigners are able to stay in korea on a long-term basis.
I think one should not compare with soccer that is actually really unfair for "small" countries/clubs. And it is really different.
Another thing is to say that because of the presence of koreans, the WCS will not be able to provide money to NA players. The first point I exposed disagree with that if foreign teams use the money to grow esport locally. Also, I am really surprized that people were thinking that it will be the case at all. The organization of WCS are comparable to GSL, MLG or maybe dreamhack in terms of prizepool, mediatization. I have never seen someone saying that these tournaments could provide anything like a minimal salary to average player.
Or maybe it was a hope that WCS would do that.
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EPT
