On April 12 2013 14:00 Dodgin wrote: wow I just realized Khaldor's video of Sound has 35k views.
I didn't get how the Ragnarok video was "insanely fast apm". I mean, yeah it's fast but it's not like Nada fast, which is much faster; I'd call that insane apm (i got to stand behind nada and which him play and laughed about how stupidly-fast his hands move)
i wish they would talk about the zvt with action vs innovation in PL cause that was a sick tvz with mass bane drops and nydus worms was so sick zerg lost but great game
also what about ultra hydra in tvz jw after roach hydra
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
All of those people make a living from sc2 with out winning tournaments right now. I think that blizzard building the foreign scene is good, but to do that you have to push the people in the scene to choose between getting by being called a top player when they are paid based on past winning, not current, or a fan base built in a different way. The Koreans coming will make the na players work to win things, to push themselves beyond what they are coasting on right now, if they want to be called a pro gamer. And raising the skill level in the eu and na scene will help those who want to improve to improve, until the foreign scene can stand on its own legs based on skill, or survive by means other than "being a top foreigner"
I understand that your sentiment is that in order for a player in NA or EU to survive playing SC2 you either have to win money (highly unlikely) or make yourself valuable and marketable in some way (also bad odds). Disregarding the marketability side of things, is there any way to get great in NA or EU besides be really good at winning stuff on your own? There is no inferstructure to support these people who may have the ability but don't have the savant like qualities that Stephano and Scarlett have shown, among a few others. That's the problem that CatZ and others want to address, and if Blizzard is willing to invest in NA and EU, there is a potential to create a competitive environment, call it AAA to Korea's MLB, until hopefully, in a few years, the AAA teams can compete with the MLB squads? Considering the potential additional sponsorship and viewership potential, what's the harm in trying it out?
The only way people in na/eu are going to get better is new and improved practice methods, which are hard, or improved competition for their practice, and guess who is going to swarm the foreign ladder, which is the best way for foreigners to grind games. This will help foreigners in the long run, by giving them improved practice partners, both on their teams and on their ladder. Sometimes a group needs tough love, and foreign progamers are group that needs it far more than most who receive it.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
All of those people make a living from sc2 with out winning tournaments right now. I think that blizzard building the foreign scene is good, but to do that you have to push the people in the scene to choose between getting by being called a top player when they are paid based on past winning, not current, or a fan base built in a different way. The Koreans coming will make the na players work to win things, to push themselves beyond what they are coasting on right now, if they want to be called a pro gamer. And raising the skill level in the eu and na scene will help those who want to improve to improve, until the foreign scene can stand on its own legs based on skill, or survive by means other than "being a top foreigner"
I understand that your sentiment is that in order for a player in NA or EU to survive playing SC2 you either have to win money (highly unlikely) or make yourself valuable and marketable in some way (also bad odds). Disregarding the marketability side of things, is there any way to get great in NA or EU besides be really good at winning stuff on your own? There is no inferstructure to support these people who may have the ability but don't have the savant like qualities that Stephano and Scarlett have shown, among a few others. That's the problem that CatZ and others want to address, and if Blizzard is willing to invest in NA and EU, there is a potential to create a competitive environment, call it AAA to Korea's MLB, until hopefully, in a few years, the AAA teams can compete with the MLB squads? Considering the potential additional sponsorship and viewership potential, what's the harm in trying it out?
The only way people in na/eu are going to get better is new and improved practice methods, which are hard, or improved competition for their practice, and guess who is going to swarm the foreign ladder, which is the best way for foreigners to grind games. This will help foreigners in the long run, by giving them improved practice partners, both on their teams and on their ladder. Sometimes a group needs tough love, and foreign progamers are group that needs it far more than most who receive it.
I don't understand where this cross pollination is occurring though? There's no way the Koreans are going to play on NA except for when they have to. Anyone thinking the Koreans got the shaft here are nutso.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
All of those people make a living from sc2 with out winning tournaments right now. I think that blizzard building the foreign scene is good, but to do that you have to push the people in the scene to choose between getting by being called a top player when they are paid based on past winning, not current, or a fan base built in a different way. The Koreans coming will make the na players work to win things, to push themselves beyond what they are coasting on right now, if they want to be called a pro gamer. And raising the skill level in the eu and na scene will help those who want to improve to improve, until the foreign scene can stand on its own legs based on skill, or survive by means other than "being a top foreigner"
I understand that your sentiment is that in order for a player in NA or EU to survive playing SC2 you either have to win money (highly unlikely) or make yourself valuable and marketable in some way (also bad odds). Disregarding the marketability side of things, is there any way to get great in NA or EU besides be really good at winning stuff on your own? There is no inferstructure to support these people who may have the ability but don't have the savant like qualities that Stephano and Scarlett have shown, among a few others. That's the problem that CatZ and others want to address, and if Blizzard is willing to invest in NA and EU, there is a potential to create a competitive environment, call it AAA to Korea's MLB, until hopefully, in a few years, the AAA teams can compete with the MLB squads? Considering the potential additional sponsorship and viewership potential, what's the harm in trying it out?
The only way people in na/eu are going to get better is new and improved practice methods, which are hard, or improved competition for their practice, and guess who is going to swarm the foreign ladder, which is the best way for foreigners to grind games. This will help foreigners in the long run, by giving them improved practice partners, both on their teams and on their ladder. Sometimes a group needs tough love, and foreign progamers are group that needs it far more than most who receive it.
I don't understand where this cross pollination is occurring though? There's no way the Koreans are going to play on NA except for when they have to. Anyone thinking the Koreans got the shaft here are nutso.
I never said they got the shaft, but do you really think the koreans are going to play na/eu latency only on tournament days? They need to practice for the new server as much as they need to practice anything else.
On April 12 2013 13:18 Klipsys wrote: I don't think it's blizzard's goal to foster a generation of lackluster NA talent propped up by inflated prize pools and artificial monetary incentives.
It is absolutely Blizzard's goal to foster a competetive scene across the globe. They would be delighted if there were multiple teamhouses in NA and active offline NA team leagues. As Catz example shows, if there a reason to actually be located in the US, teams like CLG were seriously considering opening teamhouses. Now they aren't.
TotalBiscuit's response from the Axiom POV: http://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/my-thoughts-on-wcs (he agrees with Catz that it would be better for Starcraft as a whole even though it would be personally worse for the Axiom team made up of Koreans, who can take advantage and play in NA right now)
Catz and TotalBiscuit both contend that Blizzard could the same money they are spending right, allocate it differently and change the rules, and be much more effective at creating an lively esports scene around their game.
On April 12 2013 13:28 AgentW wrote: [quote] So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
All of those people make a living from sc2 with out winning tournaments right now. I think that blizzard building the foreign scene is good, but to do that you have to push the people in the scene to choose between getting by being called a top player when they are paid based on past winning, not current, or a fan base built in a different way. The Koreans coming will make the na players work to win things, to push themselves beyond what they are coasting on right now, if they want to be called a pro gamer. And raising the skill level in the eu and na scene will help those who want to improve to improve, until the foreign scene can stand on its own legs based on skill, or survive by means other than "being a top foreigner"
I understand that your sentiment is that in order for a player in NA or EU to survive playing SC2 you either have to win money (highly unlikely) or make yourself valuable and marketable in some way (also bad odds). Disregarding the marketability side of things, is there any way to get great in NA or EU besides be really good at winning stuff on your own? There is no inferstructure to support these people who may have the ability but don't have the savant like qualities that Stephano and Scarlett have shown, among a few others. That's the problem that CatZ and others want to address, and if Blizzard is willing to invest in NA and EU, there is a potential to create a competitive environment, call it AAA to Korea's MLB, until hopefully, in a few years, the AAA teams can compete with the MLB squads? Considering the potential additional sponsorship and viewership potential, what's the harm in trying it out?
The only way people in na/eu are going to get better is new and improved practice methods, which are hard, or improved competition for their practice, and guess who is going to swarm the foreign ladder, which is the best way for foreigners to grind games. This will help foreigners in the long run, by giving them improved practice partners, both on their teams and on their ladder. Sometimes a group needs tough love, and foreign progamers are group that needs it far more than most who receive it.
I don't understand where this cross pollination is occurring though? There's no way the Koreans are going to play on NA except for when they have to. Anyone thinking the Koreans got the shaft here are nutso.
I never said they got the shaft, but do you really think the koreans are going to play na/eu latency only on tournament days? They need to practice for the new server as much as they need to practice anything else.
I know you didn't, it was more of an offhand remark. But you think the few games the Koreans are going to bother playing on NA, are going to help increase the ability of NA players to any significant level? I believe the majority of their training will continue to occur on the Korean ladder or in customs (obviously less so). I don't think Nestea's going to be playing on NA too much, or Mvp on EU etc. and they certainly won't be showing off builds, so what does that do to help foreigners?
On April 12 2013 13:45 Klipsys wrote: 10k a month from streaming? That would require what? 2 million viewers in a month watching commercials? ($5 per 1k)
Yeah. Sure.
That probably includes the money that sponsors pay to have them show their brand on their stream.
On April 12 2013 15:22 EleanorRIgby wrote: cant watch vods now unless you pay? pretty lame
Huh? AFAIK the VODS on twitch have always been for subs only, but he posts VODS on youtube where everyone can watch it for free because youtube gives better ad revenue than twitch and also extra exposure.
I'm not really sure I agree with Catz (again) when he says that maps like Arkanoid have no place in tournaments. Tournaments have map vetos which work in pretty much the same way as proleague picking.
Also Catz saying mech is super bad vs swarmhosts despite many people making it work annoys me. It's people like him that make people see mech as this unviable pos so everyone gives up on it.
I am a big fan of JP and the show, but I really wish that they would get rid of Catz as a "pillar". The rest of the guests have achievements and credibility to their names. Catz doesn't fit well with the show at all, and is basically there to be the NA drama portion that was left out by a much better pillar Incontrol. He is a really poor replacement. QXC, Tyler, TheOgnis, Wolf, were all really great, and I would much rather see these more reasonable,rationale and accomplished people on the show. Some progamer or casting credentials would help. Catz seems more interested in promoting his team or own fame/drama rather than contributing to what makes the show so great over the years.
On April 13 2013 00:20 Irre wrote: I am a big fan of JP and the show, but I really wish that they would get rid of Catz as a "pillar". The rest of the guests have achievements and credibility to their names. Catz doesn't fit well with the show at all, and is basically there to be the NA drama portion that was left out by a much better pillar Incontrol. He is a really poor replacement. QXC, Tyler, TheOgnis, Wolf, were all really great, and I would much rather see these more reasonable,rationale and accomplished people on the show. Some progamer or casting credentials would help. Catz seems more interested in promoting his team or own fame/drama rather than contributing to what makes the show so great over the years.
As someone who is invested in the NA scene, I have to completely disagree with you. Catz is the guy doing to the hard job of building up an NA team and trying to get talented players the opportunity to succeed. A lot of people see what he is saying as whining, but he really passionate about the scene and building something in NA. He has also put a lot of his own time and money into doing so. Much like Alex Garfield from EG or Total Biscuit, I fully expect Catz to be very grumpy about anything that is disadvantageous to his players and team. It is his job to stick up for his players and I respect him for doing so. He is doing something much harder than going out and signing the most winning Korean players an NA team. He is not as professional as someone like Artosis or JP, but the is growing to the that role and I enjoy having him on the show.
A lot of what he is saying is simply fact, that the rules for WCS have made his job harder in the short term and made setting up a team house more of risk. I completely believe him on that front and starting any NA team is going to be a risk. But Catz is the only one that is willing to commit to the NA scene right now and he has earned my support for doing so. I also agree with him that the rules for WCS currently benefit Korean players who do not want to commit to playing to the NA scene. Going offline for the both the NA code and NA code S will fix this problem, because many of the Koreans will not be willing to get the work visas or pay the high taxes on their prize money. Koreans who want to come over, live in NA and play in the NA will be awesome. They can join teams, play in team leagues and generally grown the NA scene. But the current system where the Koreans can qualify and play more of the event offline and then go back to GSTL and Proleague does not help the NA scene.
But this is only season 1 and it ends in June. I am sure it will be smoothed out at time goes on.
Whenever people compare Sc2 to LoL and note how Riot has the superior business model to Blizzard due to the micro transactions, I always ask myself one thing: Why isn't blizzard now implementing the "custom map" market, which they announced for past LotV? They could offer purchasable campaigns and maybe even use the existing Sc2 novels as a basis.
I would very much like to know why some of the bigger NA teams don't take a cut of their players winnings to improve the scene. Not saying that a lot would come right away of that but KR made it that way and it sure worked for them.
Imo we shouldn't try to point fingers but just take a minute and learn from what others that succeeded did to accomplish that, is it possible for us to do it?
EG is sort of the black sheep in all of this, because of their success others try to copy them but there can only be one EG. (well two now with "THE ALLIANCE" but yeah..)
On April 13 2013 00:20 Irre wrote: I am a big fan of JP and the show, but I really wish that they would get rid of Catz as a "pillar". The rest of the guests have achievements and credibility to their names. Catz doesn't fit well with the show at all, and is basically there to be the NA drama portion that was left out by a much better pillar Incontrol. He is a really poor replacement. QXC, Tyler, TheOgnis, Wolf, were all really great, and I would much rather see these more reasonable,rationale and accomplished people on the show. Some progamer or casting credentials would help. Catz seems more interested in promoting his team or own fame/drama rather than contributing to what makes the show so great over the years.
You will be alone in that sentiment. Catz is awesome he is a team owner he has been around a long time. He knows the scene. He watches stuff. Qxc gives knowledge and stuff but doesn't actually watch games that they talk about. Catz is super qualified. Tyler li bet stopped wanting to want to do the show because he seems to have really pulled back on his activities after leaving liquid. Catz does more than qxc and Tyler right now. Besides he brings productive insight
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