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On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 12:59 DaCruise wrote:On April 12 2013 12:56 Klipsys wrote:
Dude, I'm so sick of hearing people fucking complain that blizzard isn't handing them money to play their game. Either shut up practice and beat Koreans, or get a real fucking job. Most people HAVE to do both if you are outside of Korea. Get a clue! Catz actually knows what he is talking about. He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
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On April 12 2013 13:22 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 12:59 DaCruise wrote:
[quote]
Most people HAVE to do both if you are outside of Korea. Get a clue!
Catz actually knows what he is talking about. He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. No, they should just practice more and make money that way. : P
It's impossible to argue with people like you, honestly. Sitting down and just going "herp derp practicing more" doesn't do anything when you don't have the several additional building tools that come with living in the environment in a Korean team house. Anyone who has been doing that for years and comes over to face some random American player is obviously going to win no contest and absolutely shut down their opportunity to make that money. But I guess they should have just practiced more, right?
Also, this is Totalbiscuits soundcloud thoughts JP was speaking of. https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/my-thoughts-on-wcs
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On April 12 2013 13:23 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:17 Maesy wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:14 Hrrrrm wrote:On April 12 2013 12:56 Klipsys wrote:
Dude, I'm so sick of hearing people fucking complain that blizzard isn't handing them money to play their game. Either shut up practice and beat Koreans, or get a real fucking job. I just despise the constant "Koreans coming to take OUR money" sentiment. No, Koreans are going to compete in a tournament that they are eligible for and winning money from Blizzard. What Artosis said about then NA/EU players only practicing hard enough to beat other NA/EU player is 100% correct if it was completely region locked. Especially with the prize pools being so high for those two specific regions. It's the same exact reason why some Koreans are jumping ship from KR region. Why the hell practice twice as hard against hard as fuck competition when you can change regions and have easier competition for the same exact amount of money. The sense of entitlement that plagues western culture is one of the reasons Koreans/asians will always dominate in every esport. Yeah. It's totally only the entitlement and not our unaccepting culture in general. .....for being an "unaccepting culture", a lot of US companies/citizens just spent a ton of money on foreigners and are bringing them into our "unaccepting culture" to play a game that, coincidentally, came from this very same "unaccepting culture".
No clearly this from our culture of being unaccepting of failure. In starcraft, you win tournies, or you build a fan base, or you fade from the scene. Thats the way it is. Catz has built a fan base, hence him sticking around. Anyone remeber silver? He used to be a top 10 ish na player way back when, but he never built a fan base or put together a list of accomplishments, so he faded from the scene. Sc2 is a meritocracy, plain and simple. In this case players will adapt or they will die, esports are not a charity.
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On April 12 2013 13:26 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 12:59 DaCruise wrote:
[quote]
Most people HAVE to do both if you are outside of Korea. Get a clue!
Catz actually knows what he is talking about. He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
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On April 12 2013 13:26 Canas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:24 ThomasR wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:18 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:16 NovemberstOrm wrote:On April 12 2013 13:13 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:03 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 AgentW wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:
[quote]
He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? Yes, and that's CatZ's point. As a long term investment, Blizzard investing in building NA and EU will be best for the scene if they can come somewhere close to Korea. It's not blizzards job to make you better at starcraft. It's not blizzards job to make it easier for non-koreans to win money. I can't believe there are people arguing for pseudo esports welfare! If you're not good enough to win money, maybe this isn't for you.... How is that good for the scene though? He's not asking blizzard to make foreigners better at starcraft, or make it easier for foreigners to win money, he's asking blizzard to create an opportunity for foreigners to actually be given the same chance to become as good as koreans, since there just isn't one right now. Korea has A LOT of teamhouses where you can go to live and only play starcraft if you're good at the game. Someone with that same kind of potential who lives in NA or europe doesn't have that, and even if that person has the desire to practice 10-12 hours a day, that's not a possibility because he has to have a job or he simply won't have anywhere to live. I know this is hard to accept, but really it's not in blizzards best interest to just shovel money at lesser skilled players. Look at pro sports as an example. Do you really think people in AAA minor leagues should have the same contracts as people playing in the majors? That's being generous and saying NA players are on a comparable level to minor league players. In reality, there barely above a comparable "varsity level". This is professional video games guys, not brain surgery. It's not essential that NA progamers make a living doing this. It is essential if Blizzard wants to make this a sustainable game that allows people to have careers in it. If they can't make money doing it then no new talent will develop and korea will just run over every other region just like what happened in BW I don't think it's blizzard's goal to foster a generation of lackluster NA talent propped up by inflated prize pools and artificial monetary incentives. There's only so much money to go around, and it should go to the best players ONLY. (In my opinion of course) NA not having any talent is not the problem, NA talent not even being given the chance to prosper, is the problem. NA having a NA-only tournament isn't going to help NA players improve, if they do nothing about their training regiment Well of course, I'm not saying catz has the end all be all answer, because he doesn't, I'm just saying that if blizzard wants sc2 to be a game with international competition (and it seems like they do), they need to do something to give foreign players more opportunities to be the best that they can be.
Do you think blizzard should build team houses? Hire coaches? Provide room and board for hundreds of (relativity) bad players? How do they realize a return on that investment? how much money do they really stand to make by doing that? I'm willing to bet if there was any conceivable change of them turning a profit doing that, they would have been doing it already.
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Once the event goes off line the problem will be solved. Few Koreans are going to go through the effort and expense of getting a work US work visa. After that the few that are left will be the players to beat. But while most of the event is online, the Koreans are going to invade. It's the best option for them.
Catz is right that it is rough to build of talent in NA right now. While the majority of events are filled with high level Koreans, even plays who are willing to practice enough to beat them have poor odds. But the problem will solve itself once the w met goes off line.
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On April 12 2013 13:28 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:26 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:24 ThomasR wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:18 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:16 NovemberstOrm wrote:On April 12 2013 13:13 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:03 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 AgentW wrote:
[quote]
Yes, and that's CatZ's point. As a long term investment, Blizzard investing in building NA and EU will be best for the scene if they can come somewhere close to Korea. It's not blizzards job to make you better at starcraft. It's not blizzards job to make it easier for non-koreans to win money. I can't believe there are people arguing for pseudo esports welfare! If you're not good enough to win money, maybe this isn't for you.... How is that good for the scene though? He's not asking blizzard to make foreigners better at starcraft, or make it easier for foreigners to win money, he's asking blizzard to create an opportunity for foreigners to actually be given the same chance to become as good as koreans, since there just isn't one right now. Korea has A LOT of teamhouses where you can go to live and only play starcraft if you're good at the game. Someone with that same kind of potential who lives in NA or europe doesn't have that, and even if that person has the desire to practice 10-12 hours a day, that's not a possibility because he has to have a job or he simply won't have anywhere to live. I know this is hard to accept, but really it's not in blizzards best interest to just shovel money at lesser skilled players. Look at pro sports as an example. Do you really think people in AAA minor leagues should have the same contracts as people playing in the majors? That's being generous and saying NA players are on a comparable level to minor league players. In reality, there barely above a comparable "varsity level". This is professional video games guys, not brain surgery. It's not essential that NA progamers make a living doing this. It is essential if Blizzard wants to make this a sustainable game that allows people to have careers in it. If they can't make money doing it then no new talent will develop and korea will just run over every other region just like what happened in BW I don't think it's blizzard's goal to foster a generation of lackluster NA talent propped up by inflated prize pools and artificial monetary incentives. There's only so much money to go around, and it should go to the best players ONLY. (In my opinion of course) NA not having any talent is not the problem, NA talent not even being given the chance to prosper, is the problem. NA having a NA-only tournament isn't going to help NA players improve, if they do nothing about their training regiment Well of course, I'm not saying catz has the end all be all answer, because he doesn't, I'm just saying that if blizzard wants sc2 to be a game with international competition (and it seems like they do), they need to do something to give foreign players more opportunities to be the best that they can be. Do you think blizzard should build team houses? Hire coaches? Provide room and board for hundreds of (relativity) bad players? How do they realize a return on that investment? how much money do they really stand to make by doing that? I'm willing to bet if there was any conceivable change of them turning a profit doing that, they would have been doing it already.
I don't have the answer to that, only blizzard does, and while I think it would be highly unlikely that blizzard would go to that extent to do something, they have to do something along those lines in order to make sure that the scene will be as big and successful as it can be.
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Haha Coach Park is badass as fuck.
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On April 12 2013 13:28 AgentW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:26 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:
[quote]
He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players. So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
No, not at all. I won't stop trying to get better. I'm just not under some delusion that blizzard owes me anything. The 95% not making serious money shouldn't complain about it. Broodwar was able to thrive for years without ANY NA or EU scene. It's not inconceivable to think that only the best should be making the most money. That's how industry in the rest of the world works, and it works pretty well. (all things considered)
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On April 12 2013 13:26 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 12:59 DaCruise wrote:
[quote]
Most people HAVE to do both if you are outside of Korea. Get a clue!
Catz actually knows what he is talking about. He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
oh my god you make me want to tear my hair out.
a lot of players make good money off their team salary and ad venue.
you have no idea how much money is there "to go around", literally zero idea. EG/TL/etc pay very good salaries for their players who don't perform shit. Grubby probably makes a crap ton of money off stream ad venue, he streams for a lot and gets 5-7k views. i remember Catz said once he makes like 10k per month with a twitch contract and he didn't have these numbers, and in europe in some countries you can live off 200 dollars per month so they live off ad venue there easily.
THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT "IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST" BULLSHIT comprehend man COMPREHEND, 90% of the players don't live off prize money yet they still make a living.
your definition of being succesful is so black and white and unreasonable, i'm not sure why you keep arguing when you are so uninformed and blunt.
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On April 12 2013 13:15 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:14 Hrrrrm wrote:On April 12 2013 12:56 Klipsys wrote:
Dude, I'm so sick of hearing people fucking complain that blizzard isn't handing them money to play their game. Either shut up practice and beat Koreans, or get a real fucking job. I just despise the constant "Koreans coming to take OUR money" sentiment. No, Koreans are going to compete in a tournament that they are eligible for and winning money from Blizzard. What Artosis said about then NA/EU players only practicing hard enough to beat other NA/EU player is 100% correct if it was completely region locked. Especially with the prize pools being so high for those two specific regions. It's the same exact reason why some Koreans are jumping ship from KR region. Why the hell practice twice as hard against hard as fuck competition when you can change regions and have easier competition for the same exact amount of money. The sense of entitlement that plagues western culture is one of the reasons Koreans/asians will always dominate in every esport.
Yeah, this is part of it. Another part is that competitive gaming is still looked down upon in most of American culture as compared to Korea, although that's changing ever so slowly.
To the point CatZ is making about how it should be region blocked, he needs to remember that Blizzard is making agreements with many entities who have varying interests. I can think of a couple of reasons why somebody like MLG might not want to be completely region locked in the very first season.
Another thing to consider is, when you look at Korea vs Foreigners in other esports, namely CS 1.6, NA was still the weakest scene, when it had all the big tournaments and fanbase. Koreans had teams, who with a non-existant 1.6 scene in Korea, would consistently place at the top of all the tournaments they played, and of course Scandanavia and EU dominated, with NA bringing up the rear. Why is that? Why does Korea do so well in the Olympics? I think there are other factors at play with the success or failure of player development in NA.
That being said, CatZ is right about most of his prescriptions for helping the NA scene and I think Blizzard will make the correct decisions down the line to promote the NA scene more than this first season, so long as it's a smooth transition from what where we started such that it's equitable to all the entities involved.
P.S. Artosis makes an entertaining devil's advocate 
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On April 12 2013 13:28 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:26 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:24 ThomasR wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:18 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:16 NovemberstOrm wrote:On April 12 2013 13:13 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Canas wrote:On April 12 2013 13:03 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 AgentW wrote:
[quote]
Yes, and that's CatZ's point. As a long term investment, Blizzard investing in building NA and EU will be best for the scene if they can come somewhere close to Korea. It's not blizzards job to make you better at starcraft. It's not blizzards job to make it easier for non-koreans to win money. I can't believe there are people arguing for pseudo esports welfare! If you're not good enough to win money, maybe this isn't for you.... How is that good for the scene though? He's not asking blizzard to make foreigners better at starcraft, or make it easier for foreigners to win money, he's asking blizzard to create an opportunity for foreigners to actually be given the same chance to become as good as koreans, since there just isn't one right now. Korea has A LOT of teamhouses where you can go to live and only play starcraft if you're good at the game. Someone with that same kind of potential who lives in NA or europe doesn't have that, and even if that person has the desire to practice 10-12 hours a day, that's not a possibility because he has to have a job or he simply won't have anywhere to live. I know this is hard to accept, but really it's not in blizzards best interest to just shovel money at lesser skilled players. Look at pro sports as an example. Do you really think people in AAA minor leagues should have the same contracts as people playing in the majors? That's being generous and saying NA players are on a comparable level to minor league players. In reality, there barely above a comparable "varsity level". This is professional video games guys, not brain surgery. It's not essential that NA progamers make a living doing this. It is essential if Blizzard wants to make this a sustainable game that allows people to have careers in it. If they can't make money doing it then no new talent will develop and korea will just run over every other region just like what happened in BW I don't think it's blizzard's goal to foster a generation of lackluster NA talent propped up by inflated prize pools and artificial monetary incentives. There's only so much money to go around, and it should go to the best players ONLY. (In my opinion of course) NA not having any talent is not the problem, NA talent not even being given the chance to prosper, is the problem. NA having a NA-only tournament isn't going to help NA players improve, if they do nothing about their training regiment Well of course, I'm not saying catz has the end all be all answer, because he doesn't, I'm just saying that if blizzard wants sc2 to be a game with international competition (and it seems like they do), they need to do something to give foreign players more opportunities to be the best that they can be. Do you think blizzard should build team houses? Hire coaches? Provide room and board for hundreds of (relativity) bad players? How do they realize a return on that investment? how much money do they really stand to make by doing that? I'm willing to bet if there was any conceivable change of them turning a profit doing that, they would have been doing it already.
No, but one event that isn't completely stacked with Koreans would be ok. Just one.
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Thank god for the break! I needed to piss so badly
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On April 12 2013 13:29 Plansix wrote:
Once the event goes off line the problem will be solved. Few Koreans are going to go through the effort and expense of getting a work US work visa. After that the few that are left will be the players to beat. But while most of the event is online, the Koreans are going to invade. It's the best option for them.
Catz is right that it is rough to build of talent in NA right now. While the majority of events are filled with high level Koreans, even plays who are willing to practice enough to beat them have poor odds. But the problem will solve itself once the w met goes off line.
I personally have no interest in watching a tournament comprised entirely of NA players. The games would be so bad.
I'm sure there's an audience for a tournament like that, but I don't think it's as big as CatZ thinks that it is.
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On April 12 2013 13:28 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:23 farvacola wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Maesy wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:14 Hrrrrm wrote:On April 12 2013 12:56 Klipsys wrote:
Dude, I'm so sick of hearing people fucking complain that blizzard isn't handing them money to play their game. Either shut up practice and beat Koreans, or get a real fucking job. I just despise the constant "Koreans coming to take OUR money" sentiment. No, Koreans are going to compete in a tournament that they are eligible for and winning money from Blizzard. What Artosis said about then NA/EU players only practicing hard enough to beat other NA/EU player is 100% correct if it was completely region locked. Especially with the prize pools being so high for those two specific regions. It's the same exact reason why some Koreans are jumping ship from KR region. Why the hell practice twice as hard against hard as fuck competition when you can change regions and have easier competition for the same exact amount of money. The sense of entitlement that plagues western culture is one of the reasons Koreans/asians will always dominate in every esport. Yeah. It's totally only the entitlement and not our unaccepting culture in general. .....for being an "unaccepting culture", a lot of US companies/citizens just spent a ton of money on foreigners and are bringing them into our "unaccepting culture" to play a game that, coincidentally, came from this very same "unaccepting culture". Sc2 is a meritocracy, plain and simple. In this case players will adapt or they will die, esports are not a charity.
That last sentence is perfect. It really sums up everything I've been trying to convey
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On April 12 2013 13:28 AgentW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:26 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:
[quote]
He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players. So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
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On April 12 2013 13:29 Plansix wrote:
One the event goes off line the problem will be solved. Few Koreans are going to go through the effort and expense of getting a work US work visa. After that the few that are left will be the players to beat. But while most of the event is online, the Koreans are going to invade. It's the best option for them.
Catz is right that it is rough to build of talent in NA right now. While the majority of events are filled with high level Koreans, even plays who are willing to practice enough to beat them have poor odds. But the problem will solve itself once the w met goes off line.
I think you're spot on here. No Korean, perhaps excluding viOLet, is going to move: the culture shock and language change just won't work. I think CatZ recognizes that Blizzard isn't going to region lock it now (and they just can't out of fairness), but the best move for the growth of the game would have been to region lock NA and EU and create an incentive for those players to play full time, instead of doing it 8 months from now.
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On April 12 2013 13:28 AgentW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:26 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:00 Klipsys wrote:
[quote]
He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money? aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely. even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about. You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players. So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
I personally probably wouldn't even notice 95% of the na players leaving the scene to be honest.
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On April 12 2013 13:32 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:28 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 12 2013 13:23 farvacola wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Maesy wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:14 Hrrrrm wrote:On April 12 2013 12:56 Klipsys wrote:
Dude, I'm so sick of hearing people fucking complain that blizzard isn't handing them money to play their game. Either shut up practice and beat Koreans, or get a real fucking job. I just despise the constant "Koreans coming to take OUR money" sentiment. No, Koreans are going to compete in a tournament that they are eligible for and winning money from Blizzard. What Artosis said about then NA/EU players only practicing hard enough to beat other NA/EU player is 100% correct if it was completely region locked. Especially with the prize pools being so high for those two specific regions. It's the same exact reason why some Koreans are jumping ship from KR region. Why the hell practice twice as hard against hard as fuck competition when you can change regions and have easier competition for the same exact amount of money. The sense of entitlement that plagues western culture is one of the reasons Koreans/asians will always dominate in every esport. Yeah. It's totally only the entitlement and not our unaccepting culture in general. .....for being an "unaccepting culture", a lot of US companies/citizens just spent a ton of money on foreigners and are bringing them into our "unaccepting culture" to play a game that, coincidentally, came from this very same "unaccepting culture". Sc2 is a meritocracy, plain and simple. In this case players will adapt or they will die, esports are not a charity. That last sentence is perfect. It really sums up everything I've been trying to convey
And they WILL die if that is the case, because you cannot become the best at starcraft if you have nowhere to stay and nothing to eat.
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On April 12 2013 13:33 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 13:28 AgentW wrote:On April 12 2013 13:26 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:21 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:17 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:15 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:10 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:09 hastur420 wrote:On April 12 2013 13:05 Klipsys wrote:On April 12 2013 13:02 hastur420 wrote:
[quote]
aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely.
even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about.
You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money? no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second. in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what? his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way. and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that? seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person. If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you. we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors. i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money. so what the fuck are you talking about again? This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money. If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple. ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy. Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money. yet he doesn't win anything. just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries. he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans. he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind. seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone. If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players. So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious? People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
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EPT
