On April 12 2013 13:29 Plansix wrote: Once the event goes off line the problem will be solved. Few Koreans are going to go through the effort and expense of getting a work US work visa. After that the few that are left will be the players to beat. But while most of the event is online, the Koreans are going to invade. It's the best option for them.
Catz is right that it is rough to build of talent in NA right now. While the majority of events are filled with high level Koreans, even plays who are willing to practice enough to beat them have poor odds. But the problem will solve itself once the w met goes off line.
I think making the WCS NA (and EU) offline will be interesting and I would actually like to see that in the future. It will require a lot of planning, but I think it's possible as long as Blizzard provides enough support and big NA eSports organizations (tournaments, teams) are willing to cooperate.
PS: Edited to add the most important word ("offline") I meant in there.
On April 12 2013 12:56 Klipsys wrote: Dude, I'm so sick of hearing people fucking complain that blizzard isn't handing them money to play their game. Either shut up practice and beat Koreans, or get a real fucking job.
I just despise the constant "Koreans coming to take OUR money" sentiment. No, Koreans are going to compete in a tournament that they are eligible for and winning money from Blizzard. What Artosis said about then NA/EU players only practicing hard enough to beat other NA/EU player is 100% correct if it was completely region locked. Especially with the prize pools being so high for those two specific regions.
It's the same exact reason why some Koreans are jumping ship from KR region. Why the hell practice twice as hard against hard as fuck competition when you can change regions and have easier competition for the same exact amount of money.
The sense of entitlement that plagues western culture is one of the reasons Koreans/asians will always dominate in every esport.
Yeah. It's totally only the entitlement and not our unaccepting culture in general.
.....for being an "unaccepting culture", a lot of US companies/citizens just spent a ton of money on foreigners and are bringing them into our "unaccepting culture" to play a game that, coincidentally, came from this very same "unaccepting culture".
No clearly this from our culture of being unaccepting of failure. In starcraft, you win tournies, or you build a fan base, or you fade from the scene. Thats the way it is. Catz has built a fan base, hence him sticking around. Anyone remeber silver? He used to be a top 10 ish na player way back when, but he never built a fan base or put together a list of accomplishments, so he faded from the scene. Sc2 is a meritocracy, plain and simple. In this case players will adapt or they will die, esports are not a charity.
You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money?
no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second.
in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it
yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what?
his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way.
and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that?
seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person.
If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you.
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money?
Yes, and that's CatZ's point. As a long term investment, Blizzard investing in building NA and EU will be best for the scene if they can come somewhere close to Korea.
It's not blizzards job to make you better at starcraft. It's not blizzards job to make it easier for non-koreans to win money. I can't believe there are people arguing for pseudo esports welfare! If you're not good enough to win money, maybe this isn't for you....
How is that good for the scene though? He's not asking blizzard to make foreigners better at starcraft, or make it easier for foreigners to win money, he's asking blizzard to create an opportunity for foreigners to actually be given the same chance to become as good as koreans, since there just isn't one right now. Korea has A LOT of teamhouses where you can go to live and only play starcraft if you're good at the game. Someone with that same kind of potential who lives in NA or europe doesn't have that, and even if that person has the desire to practice 10-12 hours a day, that's not a possibility because he has to have a job or he simply won't have anywhere to live.
I know this is hard to accept, but really it's not in blizzards best interest to just shovel money at lesser skilled players. Look at pro sports as an example. Do you really think people in AAA minor leagues should have the same contracts as people playing in the majors? That's being generous and saying NA players are on a comparable level to minor league players. In reality, there barely above a comparable "varsity level". This is professional video games guys, not brain surgery. It's not essential that NA progamers make a living doing this.
It is essential if Blizzard wants to make this a sustainable game that allows people to have careers in it. If they can't make money doing it then no new talent will develop and korea will just run over every other region just like what happened in BW
I don't think it's blizzard's goal to foster a generation of lackluster NA talent propped up by inflated prize pools and artificial monetary incentives. There's only so much money to go around, and it should go to the best players ONLY. (In my opinion of course)
NA not having any talent is not the problem, NA talent not even being given the chance to prosper, is the problem.
NA having a NA-only tournament isn't going to help NA players improve, if they do nothing about their training regiment
I disagree. By creating an incentive to play harder (easier money) it creates better competition between NA players over time, building up to hardcore training and a scene that can battle Korea. This is obviously far away, but we need to start something now.
Let's say you only have to practice 300 hours a month to be able to compete with the best NA player but in order to even have a chance at a Korean you have to put in 1000 hours a month. In what universe will you ever aim to compete with the Korean? Especially when you could make a significant amount of money only practicing 300 hours against NA players. There should always at the very least be a handful of Koreans in NA and EU just to keep the NA and EU players honest. Less top heavy prize money and more equally distributed. But if you just region lock or have some type of citizenship requirement where Koreans are basically "banned" then players from those regions will just abuse the easy money.
That will do nothing for growth or competing against Koreans. Unless by growth you mean funneling huge sums of money into non-Korean pockets just so we have "white guys" playing a game at a mediocre level. This shouldn't be a charity.
He knows what he's talking about as far as a 20 something who wants to make money playing video games...Are you seriously implying that blizzard should make it easier for non-koreans to make money?
aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely.
even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about.
You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money?
no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second.
in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it
yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what?
his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way.
and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that?
seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person.
If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you.
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
oh my god you make me want to tear my hair out.
a lot of players make good money off their team salary and ad venue.
you have no idea how much money is there "to go around", literally zero idea. EG/TL/etc pay very good salaries for their players who don't perform shit. Grubby probably makes a crap ton of money off stream ad venue, he streams for a lot and gets 5-7k views. i remember Catz said once he makes like 10k per month with a twitch contract and he didn't have these numbers, and in europe in some countries you can live off 200 dollars per month so they live off ad venue there easily.
THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT "IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST" BULLSHIT comprehend man COMPREHEND, 90% of the players don't live off prize money yet they still make a living.
your definition of being succesful is so black and white and unreasonable, i'm not sure why you keep arguing when you are so uninformed and blunt.
In establishing their scene the Koreans had a geographical advantage. It was much easier to establish a team house. Expenses for food and housing were probably much cheaper. Equipment was probably cheaper because their esport scene didn't start growing until BW was several years old and didn't require the latest computers. They had a cultural advantage. Starcraft BW was visibly part of Korean culture by the numbers of people playing BW in PC bangs. Esports could be more easily sold to potential sponsors because of that.
It isn't as easy as NA players pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. In order to establish the NA scene they have to overcome environmental problems that Korea never had.
Coach Park trained Chuck Norris to grow a beard. After it was completed he said "I told you that you could only do one thing better than me, and you did it well my son. The student has surpassed the master."
Chuck then asked "What must I do now Sensei?"
Coach Park said "You shall be what the world thinks of when they think of strength. Go forth and spread your accomplishments. Someday there shall be need of me. GO GO NOW!" Chuck then cried for the final time and cured Coach Park's dogs cancer. No, nobody knows the dogs name, for it is only listenable by dogs... and Coach Park.
In 2013 Coach Park's first job was taking EG;TL and making them win Proleague. He did this to prove that even the weakest amongst us have value. He allows his team to lose games then he places his hand upon them and they have the strength of 100 men for a brief time - long enough to win at SC2.
Coach Park is only warming up. North Korea lies at the horizon and South Korea is Hwaiting for Coach Park to save the day vs. this tyranny. They don't know what they are doing.
no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second.
in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it
yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what?
his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way.
and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that?
seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person.
If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you.
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
aren't you guys fucking listening to him at all? he emphasized he is ok with it if they decrease the prize pool hugely.
even if top 3 get like 50/20/5k dollars and koreans cant participate Catz would never make enough money via tournament prize and he knows that, what the fuck are you talking about.
You're talking about 5k like it's nothing. Are you insane? Are you really suggesting that it's blizzards job to make it easier for less skilled players to make money?
no i'm not talking about 5k like it's nothing, oh my god it's so hard to not insult you. think for a fucking second.
in my theoretic scenario last post, 3 tournaments per year, rd place gets 5k, and Catz has no realistic change to even make 3rd because there are like 10 better players than him in americas alone, and he knows it
yet you go on CATZ WANTS THE MONEY HE IS SO LAME. man are you braindead or what?
his problem is that 70% of the AMERICAN top class league will consist of koreans. kinda defeats the purpose it if you look it that way.
and the koreans who go there are the oney who have the teams with enough money to support them, they have a free ticket to an easier code S just because they're on a team. do you seriously think zenio deserves that?
seriously anyone who doesn't understand his point of view is a really slow person.
If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you.
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
oh my god you make me want to tear my hair out.
a lot of players make good money off their team salary and ad venue.
you have no idea how much money is there "to go around", literally zero idea. EG/TL/etc pay very good salaries for their players who don't perform shit. Grubby probably makes a crap ton of money off stream ad venue, he streams for a lot and gets 5-7k views. i remember Catz said once he makes like 10k per month with a twitch contract and he didn't have these numbers, and in europe in some countries you can live off 200 dollars per month so they live off ad venue there easily.
THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT "IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST" BULLSHIT comprehend man COMPREHEND, 90% of the players don't live off prize money yet they still make a living.
your definition of being succesful is so black and white and unreasonable, i'm not sure why you keep arguing when you are so uninformed and blunt.
If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you.
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
As long as specifically the former feeds as many players into the world championship as the last time - yes definitely in my opinion. With a significant overhaul of the whole structure of course not.
On April 12 2013 13:02 AgentW wrote: [quote] Yes, and that's CatZ's point. As a long term investment, Blizzard investing in building NA and EU will be best for the scene if they can come somewhere close to Korea.
It's not blizzards job to make you better at starcraft. It's not blizzards job to make it easier for non-koreans to win money. I can't believe there are people arguing for pseudo esports welfare! If you're not good enough to win money, maybe this isn't for you....
How is that good for the scene though? He's not asking blizzard to make foreigners better at starcraft, or make it easier for foreigners to win money, he's asking blizzard to create an opportunity for foreigners to actually be given the same chance to become as good as koreans, since there just isn't one right now. Korea has A LOT of teamhouses where you can go to live and only play starcraft if you're good at the game. Someone with that same kind of potential who lives in NA or europe doesn't have that, and even if that person has the desire to practice 10-12 hours a day, that's not a possibility because he has to have a job or he simply won't have anywhere to live.
I know this is hard to accept, but really it's not in blizzards best interest to just shovel money at lesser skilled players. Look at pro sports as an example. Do you really think people in AAA minor leagues should have the same contracts as people playing in the majors? That's being generous and saying NA players are on a comparable level to minor league players. In reality, there barely above a comparable "varsity level". This is professional video games guys, not brain surgery. It's not essential that NA progamers make a living doing this.
It is essential if Blizzard wants to make this a sustainable game that allows people to have careers in it. If they can't make money doing it then no new talent will develop and korea will just run over every other region just like what happened in BW
I don't think it's blizzard's goal to foster a generation of lackluster NA talent propped up by inflated prize pools and artificial monetary incentives. There's only so much money to go around, and it should go to the best players ONLY. (In my opinion of course)
NA not having any talent is not the problem, NA talent not even being given the chance to prosper, is the problem.
NA having a NA-only tournament isn't going to help NA players improve, if they do nothing about their training regiment
I disagree. By creating an incentive to play harder (easier money) it creates better competition between NA players over time, building up to hardcore training and a scene that can battle Korea. This is obviously far away, but we need to start something now.
Let's say you only have to practice 300 hours a month to be able to compete with the best NA player but in order to even have a chance at a Korean you have to put in 1000 hours a month. In what universe will you ever aim to compete with the Korean? Especially when you could make a significant amount of money only practicing 300 hours against NA players. There should always at the very least be a handful of Koreans in NA and EU just to keep the NA and EU players honest. Less top heavy prize money and more equally distributed. But if you just region lock or have some type of citizenship requirement where Koreans are basically "banned" then players from those regions will just abuse the easy money.
That will do nothing for growth or competing against Koreans. Unless by growth you mean funneling huge sums of money into non-Korean pockets just so we have "white guys" playing a game at a mediocre level. This shouldn't be a charity.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I think that a year or two of just NA and EU guys will create the incentive to compete so when it's time to open it up to everyone, people are both better and more financially stable to attempt to compete with the Koreans. Perhaps it doesn't work, they become complacent and get crushed, but why not try if Blizzard's using the money on WCS anyway?
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
As long as specifically the former feeds as many players into the world championship as the last time - yes definitely in my opinion. With a significant overhaul of the whole structure of course not.
I agree that the system would have to be tweaked along CatZ's line of thought. Either cut the slots available or the prizemoney by some fraction.
If you can't understand that not making money at something means you shouldn't be doing it as a vocation, I'm not sure what to tell you.
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
All of those people make a living from sc2 with out winning tournaments right now. I think that blizzard building the foreign scene is good, but to do that you have to push the people in the scene to choose between getting by being called a top player when they are paid based on past winning, not current, or a fan base built in a different way. The Koreans coming will make the na players work to win things, to push themselves beyond what they are coasting on right now, if they want to be called a pro gamer. And raising the skill level in the eu and na scene will help those who want to improve to improve, until the foreign scene can stand on its own legs based on skill, or survive by means other than "being a top foreigner"
we're talking about prize money, they also get money from teams/sponsors.
i'm not sure if there is a point to argue with you at all, 90% of the pro players hardly make any prize money at all and there are people we consider serious monsters like revival, oz, ryung etc. top class koreans who would die if they would have to be living off prize money.
so what the fuck are you talking about again?
This. Is. Not. A. Real. Job. If. You. Are. Not. Making. Any. Money.
If catz (or whoever) is unhappy with the amount of money they're able to make as a professional video game player, they should get a different job. Plain and simple.
ok let me explain it to you again because you seem like a really slow little boy.
Catz probably makes more money than you and the average guy off sponsors and ad venue on streams etc. he probably makes really good money.
yet he doesn't win anything.
just like 95% of the sc2 pro players except the absolute pinnacle, who make decent money by winning tournaments, they would all die of starvation if they didn't have salaries.
he is not "unhappy" with his money, because he has no realistic chance to win any decent money be it with koreans or without koreans.
he thinks it is fucked up that the vast majority of the NATIONAL LEAGUE will be non nationals, and not even based on performance, base on THEIR TEAMS MONEY. if you can't see how that is unfair to up and coming players, you're just fucking blind.
seriously arguing with you is like arguing with a piece of stone.
If 95% of the pro players can't even eat, then they should get new jobs. Don't know what to tell you. This isn't an extremely lucrative career path, and it's not going to be for like 15 years at least. You're either one of the best, or you're doing it for the love of the game. Catz wants esports to be as viable a career option as playing pro sports. It's not. There isn't enough money to go around, especially to lesser skilled players.
So are you saying that the strong 5% should survive and the other 95% should fade away? Effectively destroying SC2 as an e-Sport? Are you serious?
People forget that there are two paths to making money in sc2, and they both build into something similar. You either build a reputation of winning, or you build a reputation that appeals to sponsors in other ways. You don't have to win, you just have to find a way to look good for sponsors.
I absolutely agree, but it's really hard to make yourself attractive to sponsors without winning something first. Look at guys like that right now: IdrA, White-Ra, Grubby (I think they're all good players, but the results haven't been great recently, Grubby less so). What's the common denominator? They all won things and gained popularity that way first.
Really? Has catz ever won a major tourney?How about Incontrol, or dragon, or Painuser? They all found a way to build a brand with out major results. It isn't as hard as you imagine, and I pulled all of those names from the list of streams online at this very moment.
Excellent point, but I think the only guy that proves your point here is CatZ. CatZ has worked hard to make himself and his team financially viable by attracting sponsors. iNcontroL proves my point (BW success and WoL beta popularity). Painuser also had beta popularity, which put him in the door, but he isn't sponsored by anyone, he's making it on his own, no sponsors involved. Dragon's an entertainer and teamless, thereby landing somewhere in between.
I agree with you that there is a way to make yourself valuable and successful financially through SC2, but it takes a bunch of luck no matter which way you slice it, via results or entertainment or production. You don't think that Blizzard attempting to elevate the NA and EU scenes is a good plan for the long term? If the money's going to be given out through WCS, would making NA and EU locked with residency restrictions really be a bad thing?
All of those people make a living from sc2 with out winning tournaments right now. I think that blizzard building the foreign scene is good, but to do that you have to push the people in the scene to choose between getting by being called a top player when they are paid based on past winning, not current, or a fan base built in a different way. The Koreans coming will make the na players work to win things, to push themselves beyond what they are coasting on right now, if they want to be called a pro gamer. And raising the skill level in the eu and na scene will help those who want to improve to improve, until the foreign scene can stand on its own legs based on skill, or survive by means other than "being a top foreigner"
I understand that your sentiment is that in order for a player in NA or EU to survive playing SC2 you either have to win money (highly unlikely) or make yourself valuable and marketable in some way (also bad odds). Disregarding the marketability side of things, is there any way to get great in NA or EU besides be really good at winning stuff on your own? There is no inferstructure to support these people who may have the ability but don't have the savant like qualities that Stephano and Scarlett have shown, among a few others. That's the problem that CatZ and others want to address, and if Blizzard is willing to invest in NA and EU, there is a potential to create a competitive environment, call it AAA to Korea's MLB, until hopefully, in a few years, the AAA teams can compete with the MLB squads? Considering the potential additional sponsorship and viewership potential, what's the harm in trying it out?
EPT
