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On April 13 2013 05:14 Piotr wrote:
Here we are talking about foreign manager who wants their korean players to play WCS NA. Why are they doing that if it is a brake to their own esport ? Let's say Jaedong wins. EG will be happy, having maybe more sponsorts etc. What they do with their money ? It's their choice, their responsability but they can hire some good american guys and try to train them better, they can develop their team house in the US etc.
It is one point that should be in all mind: these koreans work for a foreign team mostly.
Which is something everyone forgets. Most of these foreign teams bought korean players because koreans were dominating every tourney. You need to place (or at least compete) to get and keep sponsors, and thus make money.
The biggest challenge to teams is having their players place highly and getting sponsor money to keep the house going. With koreans on foreign teams placing high in NA (or EU) it means better placement for foreign teams, more money into foreign teams, which *benefits* all foreign players (current and future) on those teams.
If you think of this from a team perspective, it works. If you think of it only from a player perspective, sure, koreans still will dominate the top, but this does not mean it will not benefit the other foreign players on those teams.
Artosis is right, Code A is the place to watch. As foreign *teams* place higher in these WCS tourneys, and thus receive more sponsor money, they will have more funds to recruit some of these Code A players. It may not be the best system that could possible, but frankly I'm not sure that's something that could ever exist anyway. Someone somewhere has to compromise.
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On April 13 2013 04:45 JackDT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. Scarlett is great example of why Catz is right. Catz noted that Scarlett made it to IPL by winning a Playhem tournament with no Koreans. And then at IPL she beat a a single Korean. But then at WCS Canada and NA she dominated every everyone and totally broke out. If WCS Canada and WCS NA had been half Korean does anyone think Scarlett would have won at her current skill level? Her wins in the WCS were what got her to Korea and gave her the ability to train full time. And NOW she's beating MVP. Her success is very much a result of WCS Canada and NA. That's why Catz said that he preferred what Blizzard did last year with the WCS country competition, specifically because it helped players like Scarlett get off the ground.
Scarlett making it to IPL by winning a Playhem tournament is equivalent of Newguy149 making it to WCS NA CodeS .
Scarlett getting the attention by beating a single korean in IPL would be equivalent of Newguy149 beating a korean once in NA CodeS - so that was quite a weird thing to bring up.
The WCS Canada and NA prize money OTOH brings a more interesting discussion... how much money does a person from NA need to go fully pro... 30k dollars?
For someone from korea, a place in team house seems sufficent... does food and a bunkbed really cost 30k?
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On April 13 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 02:10 crms wrote:
Does LoL have a microtranscation shop that has models created by users and not just riot? I have a feeling Valve make even more from microtransactions (revenue not gross) because most of the dota 2 models are community made and voted, and then sold in the valve shop. Valve makes money off of Steam and selling games on Steam. That is how they fund Dota 2 and TF2, which are free, but require you to install Steam. The amount they make off the steam shop for Dota is unknown, but it is less than what Riot makes on LoL(otherwise, that is all they would be doing). Also, many of the skins that Riot sells are more complex that the "additions" that you can get for Valve. Both are interesting models, but Dota2 flat out cheats when it comes to funding, since it is can be argued it is funded by sales of Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite.
I wasn't meaning to argue on how valve makes most of their money but more pointing out how valves model of letting user created content be sold in the custom shop seems genius because you eliminate a ton of the development costs. Valve still makes a lot of the items but the community supplementation is awesome. It seems like a great idea and Riot should probably allow some user made skins into their shops for this same reason. It's also nice for the community. Valve f2p games TF2/Dota2 have entire communities within the community that barely even play the game but simply design items/skins. I've heard rumors of TF2 item makers living off their work full time, with the most successful breaking 6 figures yearly.
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On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
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On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
Who said anything about working 40 hours.
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On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
Job: 40 hours a week
Starcraft: 80+ hours a week
Sleep: 42-56 hours a week
Personal stuff (eating, showering, errands, etc.): 14 hours a week
Assuming you only sleep 6 hours a night, don't spend any time commuting between jobs, and only spend 2 hours a day on things like cooking, eating, showering, laundry, and everything else that you usually need to do, you end up with more time than is available in a week.
Then there's the fact that you WILL burn out very quickly if you somehow managed to only sleep, work, eat, and SCII.
However, that's all a moot point since Artosis specifically said you will never make up the skill gap practicing at home when others have team houses and coaches.
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Just want to say that STOG is amazing. It is kind of insane, but after Game of Thrones and great SC2 tournaments there might be nothing else I would rather watch.
I doesn't make sense but it is true anyway. Manage to be really entertaining and really interesting almost every time. Please keep doing it forever JP 
About the WCS discussion, Catz is spot on, I sign that any day.
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On April 13 2013 05:31 Branman wrote:
Then there's the fact that you WILL burn out very quickly if you somehow managed to only sleep, work, eat, and SCII.
However, that's all a moot point since Artosis specifically said you will never make up the skill gap practicing at home when others have team houses and coaches.
It's not moot really. Sacrificing like that is in order to *get onto* a team, and thus a team house w/ coaches. It's not a way to become #1 in the world.
As Moonglade said. The koreans have shown us all a path. We can choose to walk the same path or keep complaining about how hard it is.
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Canada14127 Posts
On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:
And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans.
How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level?
That is mainly who my post was addressing.
I think you seriously overestimate salaries. All the players with reasonable salaries are the ones that are competitive. Most others that make good money rely on streaming for that income.
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On April 13 2013 05:36 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:
And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans.
How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level?
That is mainly who my post was addressing. I think you seriously overestimate salaries. All the players with reasonable salaries are the ones that are competitive. Most others that make good money rely on streaming for that income.
by competitive... u mean washing out of tourneys, and giving up, and just saying "well we cant beat koreans so this tournament is a waste of time."
??
cause those are the same people who are literally being handed infinite free time, so that they CAN compete with Koreans... they simply use that Western work ethic to say "meh...koreans play and work soo hard.. ill never beat them so why waste my time trying"
Literally how many times have we heard over the past few weeks how many players are simply playing to "beat other foreigners, but not going to bother trying to beat koreans" or how many pros going into every tourney "Well i obviously cant beat the koreans so.. im hoping for top 16"
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On April 13 2013 05:35 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:31 Branman wrote:
Then there's the fact that you WILL burn out very quickly if you somehow managed to only sleep, work, eat, and SCII.
However, that's all a moot point since Artosis specifically said you will never make up the skill gap practicing at home when others have team houses and coaches.
It's not moot really. Sacrificing like that is in order to *get onto* a team, and thus a team house w/ coaches. It's not a way to become #1 in the world. As Moonglade said. The koreans have shown us all a path. We can choose to walk the same path or keep complaining about how hard it is.
But the Korean's path to trying to become a pro gamer involves moving to another part of the Seoul or to the city from the country. For people in NA, it involves going across an ocean. Catz is just talking about removing the ocean and just focusing on getting players the ability to practice in NA.
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On April 13 2013 05:21 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:14 Piotr wrote:
Here we are talking about foreign manager who wants their korean players to play WCS NA. Why are they doing that if it is a brake to their own esport ? Let's say Jaedong wins. EG will be happy, having maybe more sponsorts etc. What they do with their money ? It's their choice, their responsability but they can hire some good american guys and try to train them better, they can develop their team house in the US etc.
It is one point that should be in all mind: these koreans work for a foreign team mostly.
Which is something everyone forgets. Most of these foreign teams bought korean players because koreans were dominating every tourney. You need to place (or at least compete) to get and keep sponsors, and thus make money. The biggest challenge to teams is having their players place highly and getting sponsor money to keep the house going. With koreans on foreign teams placing high in NA (or EU) it means better placement for foreign teams, more money into foreign teams, which *benefits* all foreign players (current and future) on those teams. If you think of this from a team perspective, it works. If you think of it only from a player perspective, sure, koreans still will dominate the top, but this does not mean it will not benefit the other foreign players on those teams. Artosis is right, Code A is the place to watch. As foreign *teams* place higher in these WCS tourneys, and thus receive more sponsor money, they will have more funds to recruit some of these Code A players. It may not be the best system that could possible, but frankly I'm not sure that's something that could ever exist anyway. Someone somewhere has to compromise.
The problem is with your last line of thought. Foreign teams could invest more money into up and coming NA players, OR they could just buy a Korean for cheap and send him straight to Code S and get more exposure.
This is game theory. An individual team will do what is in their best interest. Look at Total Biscuit's podcast. Axiom is going to NA despite the fact that TB thinks that they shouldn't be allowed to play there. Exposure in the NA's Code S will give them a much better ROI than Korea's Code A. The same can be said for EG, Liquid, and Quantic. The decision to invest in the NA scene will depend on what will maximize foreign team's ROI. Why develop your own players when you can just buy already-developed ones?
It's a similar thing for tournaments. If tournaments want more views, sponsorships, etc, they need to do what is in their best interests. That's why MLG turned from a NA-centric open system to a Korea-centric invitational.
The reason people are disappointed in Blizzard because their goal with this tournament isn't to just make money off of the content. Their main goal is to use it to expand the number of people buying and playing the game. If you expand the NA scene, then you will likely end up with more people buying your game (especially with another expansion set to come out). That's why Blizzard is the only entity in this scene that actually has the power to help develop the NA scene because they have a more pressing motivation.
Of course, everyone's motivations could change a year or two down the line if we end up with a BW-esque SC2 scene. At that point it might be too late to resurrect a NA-scene. Though, I hope everyone is in agreement that if we end up with BW-2 in terms of the international scene, then SC-2 will have failed..
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On April 13 2013 05:22 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 04:45 JackDT wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. Scarlett is great example of why Catz is right. Catz noted that Scarlett made it to IPL by winning a Playhem tournament with no Koreans. And then at IPL she beat a a single Korean. But then at WCS Canada and NA she dominated every everyone and totally broke out. If WCS Canada and WCS NA had been half Korean does anyone think Scarlett would have won at her current skill level? Her wins in the WCS were what got her to Korea and gave her the ability to train full time. And NOW she's beating MVP. Her success is very much a result of WCS Canada and NA. That's why Catz said that he preferred what Blizzard did last year with the WCS country competition, specifically because it helped players like Scarlett get off the ground. Scarlett making it to IPL by winning a Playhem tournament is equivalent of Newguy149 making it to WCS NA CodeS . Scarlett getting the attention by beating a single korean in IPL would be equivalent of Newguy149 beating a korean once in NA CodeS - so that was quite a weird thing to bring up. The WCS Canada and NA prize money OTOH brings a more interesting discussion... how much money does a person from NA need to go fully pro... 30k dollars? For someone from korea, a place in team house seems sufficent... does food and a bunkbed really cost 30k?
Realistically of course not but most foreigners are used to entirely different living standards and expectations towards things like recreational time which I am sure is simply a huge part of the whole "problem".
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On April 13 2013 05:41 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:36 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:
And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans.
How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level?
That is mainly who my post was addressing. I think you seriously overestimate salaries. All the players with reasonable salaries are the ones that are competitive. Most others that make good money rely on streaming for that income. by competitive... u mean washing out of tourneys, and giving up, and just saying "well we cant beat koreans so this tournament is a waste of time." ?? cause those are the same people who are literally being handed infinite free time, so that they CAN compete with Koreans... they simply use that Western work ethic to say "meh...koreans play and work soo hard.. ill never beat them so why waste my time trying" Literally how many times have we heard over the past few weeks how many players are simply playing to "beat other foreigners, but not going to bother trying to beat koreans" or how many pros going into every tourney "Well i obviously cant beat the koreans so.. im hoping for top 16"
No one is talking about players that give up. No one cares about them. No one cares if there are Korean players in the NA event. No one is whining because Polt or Violet decided to compete. The issues people are talking about are the ability for NA talent to be able to compete and get any exposure when the field is dominated by Koreans. Like they pointed out, it would make more sense for an NA player to try to qualify in EU, which shows there is a bit of a problem with the system right now.
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On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
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On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
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On April 13 2013 05:46 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:21 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 05:14 Piotr wrote:
Here we are talking about foreign manager who wants their korean players to play WCS NA. Why are they doing that if it is a brake to their own esport ? Let's say Jaedong wins. EG will be happy, having maybe more sponsorts etc. What they do with their money ? It's their choice, their responsability but they can hire some good american guys and try to train them better, they can develop their team house in the US etc.
It is one point that should be in all mind: these koreans work for a foreign team mostly.
Which is something everyone forgets. Most of these foreign teams bought korean players because koreans were dominating every tourney. You need to place (or at least compete) to get and keep sponsors, and thus make money. The biggest challenge to teams is having their players place highly and getting sponsor money to keep the house going. With koreans on foreign teams placing high in NA (or EU) it means better placement for foreign teams, more money into foreign teams, which *benefits* all foreign players (current and future) on those teams. If you think of this from a team perspective, it works. If you think of it only from a player perspective, sure, koreans still will dominate the top, but this does not mean it will not benefit the other foreign players on those teams. Artosis is right, Code A is the place to watch. As foreign *teams* place higher in these WCS tourneys, and thus receive more sponsor money, they will have more funds to recruit some of these Code A players. It may not be the best system that could possible, but frankly I'm not sure that's something that could ever exist anyway. Someone somewhere has to compromise. The problem is with your last line of thought. Foreign teams could invest more money into up and coming NA players, OR they could just buy a Korean for cheap and send him straight to Code S and get more exposure. This is game theory. An individual team will do what is in their best interest. Look at Total Biscuit's podcast. Axiom is going to NA despite the fact that TB thinks that they shouldn't be allowed to play there. Exposure in the NA's Code S will give them a much better ROI than Korea's Code A. The same can be said for EG, Liquid, and Quantic. The decision to invest in the NA scene will depend on what will maximize foreign team's ROI. Why develop your own players when you can just buy already-developed ones?
You are right, and in the history of sports you can see different behaviors with that. For example when a country has a territory abroad for historitical reason and that on this territory you have a lot of good athletes of one sport. You can choose to use the money they bring you back to develop the sport nationwide or keep relying on this territory.
You can use the money to develop your sport locally or use your ;oney to expand internationnaly (or both if you have enough). That's why I was saying that it is the responsability of foreign teams to behave as they want, and to develop e-sport locally if they want to.
I am personnaly quite disappointed that koreans that play in foreign teams are not in the team houses in the US for example. I understand it though.
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On April 13 2013 06:12 Piotr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:46 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 05:21 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 05:14 Piotr wrote:
Here we are talking about foreign manager who wants their korean players to play WCS NA. Why are they doing that if it is a brake to their own esport ? Let's say Jaedong wins. EG will be happy, having maybe more sponsorts etc. What they do with their money ? It's their choice, their responsability but they can hire some good american guys and try to train them better, they can develop their team house in the US etc.
It is one point that should be in all mind: these koreans work for a foreign team mostly.
Which is something everyone forgets. Most of these foreign teams bought korean players because koreans were dominating every tourney. You need to place (or at least compete) to get and keep sponsors, and thus make money. The biggest challenge to teams is having their players place highly and getting sponsor money to keep the house going. With koreans on foreign teams placing high in NA (or EU) it means better placement for foreign teams, more money into foreign teams, which *benefits* all foreign players (current and future) on those teams. If you think of this from a team perspective, it works. If you think of it only from a player perspective, sure, koreans still will dominate the top, but this does not mean it will not benefit the other foreign players on those teams. Artosis is right, Code A is the place to watch. As foreign *teams* place higher in these WCS tourneys, and thus receive more sponsor money, they will have more funds to recruit some of these Code A players. It may not be the best system that could possible, but frankly I'm not sure that's something that could ever exist anyway. Someone somewhere has to compromise. The problem is with your last line of thought. Foreign teams could invest more money into up and coming NA players, OR they could just buy a Korean for cheap and send him straight to Code S and get more exposure. This is game theory. An individual team will do what is in their best interest. Look at Total Biscuit's podcast. Axiom is going to NA despite the fact that TB thinks that they shouldn't be allowed to play there. Exposure in the NA's Code S will give them a much better ROI than Korea's Code A. The same can be said for EG, Liquid, and Quantic. The decision to invest in the NA scene will depend on what will maximize foreign team's ROI. Why develop your own players when you can just buy already-developed ones? You are right, and in the history of sports you can see different behaviors with that. For example when a country has a territory abroad for historitical reason and that on this territory you have a lot of good athletes of one sport. You can choose to use the money they bring you back to develop the sport nationwide or keep relying on this territory. You can use the money to develop your sport locally or use your ;oney to expand internationnaly (or both if you have enough). That's why I was saying that it is the responsability of foreign teams to behave as they want, and to develop e-sport locally if they want to. I am personnaly quite disappointed that koreans that play in foreign teams are not in the team houses in the US for example. I understand it though.
That is why the plan of moving all the teams to one area is so awesome. What if all of Liquid, EG, Root and Complexity were in California and able to practices, compete and play in team leagues? Even if the some of the Korean players were only there part time, it would still be good for the entire scene to have those players in NA. It is a long way off, but something people should be excited about.
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On April 13 2013 05:31 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. Job: 40 hours a week Starcraft: 80+ hours a week Sleep: 42-56 hours a week Personal stuff (eating, showering, errands, etc.): 14 hours a week Assuming you only sleep 6 hours a night, don't spend any time commuting between jobs, and only spend 2 hours a day on things like cooking, eating, showering, laundry, and everything else that you usually need to do, you end up with more time than is available in a week. Then there's the fact that you WILL burn out very quickly if you somehow managed to only sleep, work, eat, and SCII. However, that's all a moot point since Artosis specifically said you will never make up the skill gap practicing at home when others have team houses and coaches.
Agreed. I'm not saying this is the sole reason but another overlooked point is the ladder. Who's going to be better in the long run? 8 hrs playing on KR server or 8 hrs playing on NA. Custom games are very hard to get consistently. 
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On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself.
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EPT
