I think Catz is correct in that more team houses are needed. However, I think a team house is not enough. For example, players living in the EG house (USA) will never compete with players living in the KT Rolster house due to the way the KT Rolster players practice.
On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote: [quote] It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself.
The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents.
I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work.
EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on.
With sports, you have a steady line of progression that will tell you when you're probably not going to make it. If you're not that good in high school, you should probably quit. If you're good but can't get scouted and get a college/university scholarship, you should probably quit. If you're in post-secondary and you're not in the top tier of players, you're probably not going to make it to the Pros.
Most importantly, being in that top 1% of pro athletes and musicians may be hard, but once you are in that top 1% and someone notices you, you have your career set for you.
In Esports, you have to be in that 1% for any team anywhere to notice you, and even then you have to be in the top 5% of the top 1% to make more than minimum wage.
It may be so in the states, but in Europe you have to decide whether you want to pursuit a career in sports or academics. When you're about 19-20 years old you will have to decide if you want to play football or if you want to go to university. Some people may have to decide even earlier.
Really interesting stuff catz and artosis talked about. Catz did really well to paint the picture. Like honestly if your a foreign player trying to make something happen in SC 2 you should follow suppy's route. Suppy competes at big events, but he is also going to college. You should get that degree to have that back up plan. I think it is up to teams and even event organiziors to help support players. Koreans in team houses have everything taken care of. So if you they only have to worry about playing you will always do better than the guy who has to pay bills, cook food. I seriously don't think people should go for pro gaming as a career right now unless you have some sort of support, be that your parents house, or a Team. But you can't just say I am gonna quit college or going to work to play.
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
I did not know that. That may be a factor. Most 18 year olds are expected to go to college or leave the house at that age in NA.
Yep. There's a big emphasis in the US to move out of the nest when of age but obviously not the same for every family. But I don't think this is the biggest reason. I just wish you could play on the KR server without lag=[. Ladder is a huge part of practice for a lot of pros. Artosis even mentioned that TaeJa solely practiced on ladder for the most part and he was a huge title contender for most tournaments he entered as well as for GSL. Incontrol on ITG also mentioned something similar as well. Customs are good yes but it's very, very difficult to find enough quality training partners to practice with 8 hrs a day everyday without that team house environment (B-team, coach, schedule, etc).
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
This is actually wrong.
In Korea there is a culture of young teens moving out of the home to go apprentice full time at some kind of trade house. This includes music, acting, and pro-gaming among other trades. The main difference between Korea and the west is that parents are more open to the idea of a 14 year old going off and living in a pro-gaming house to train and become a pro gamer.
In NA it wouldn't be culturally acceptable even if those opportunities existed, which they don't. Thus, the average age of your up-and-coming pro gamer in NA is much older than Korea because of how their recruitment system works. When you're able to immerse a young person that is still developing in a pro-gaming environment, it's no wonder they do better than the west. In NA, the same is done for regular sports (sports camps, high school organized play etc..) where they get the talented players at a young age and immerse them in the sport. The age factor is critical.
Also, the idea that everyone in NA moves out at 18 is totally false, and in fact the trend is that kids are staying at home (and coming back home after college) more and more, even into their late 20's.
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
This is actually wrong.
In Korea there is a culture of young teens moving out of the home to go apprentice full time at some kind of trade house. This includes music, acting, and pro-gaming among other trades. The main difference between Korea and the west is that parents are more open to the idea of a 14 year old going off and living in a pro-gaming house to train and become a pro gamer.
In NA it wouldn't be culturally acceptable even if those opportunities existed, which they don't. Thus, the average age of your up-and-coming pro gamer in NA is much older than Korea because of how their recruitment system works. When you're able to immerse a young person that is still developing in a pro-gaming environment, it's no wonder they do better than the west. In NA, the same is done for regular sports (sports camps, high school organized play etc..) where they get the talented players at a young age and immerse them in the sport. The age factor is critical.
Also, the idea that everyone in NA moves out at 18 is totally false, and in fact the trend is that kids are staying at home (and coming back home after college) more and more, even into their late 20's.
hmm i guess i wasnt clear enough with the word "stereotype"
i have no idea where you got the idea to think korean parents would be ok with their kids to play video games full time, especially pre- -you can actually make money playing games- era o.O even now you hear stories of how the today's progamers had to beg their parents with ultimatums
On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote: Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more.
It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
Implying all the players here claiming welfare. The ridiculousness really never ends.
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
I did not know that. That may be a factor. Most 18 year olds are expected to go to college or leave the house at that age in NA.
actually about 59% of men and 51% of women 18-24 still live at home right now, just read about it recently on huff post. The numbers by actual age, 18, 19, 20 were extremely high as well, like 68-72% but im having a hard time finding the source on that. ~_~
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
I did not know that. That may be a factor. Most 18 year olds are expected to go to college or leave the house at that age in NA.
actually about 59% of men and 51% of women 18-24 still live at home right now, just read about it recently on huff post. The numbers by actual age, 18, 19, 20 were extremely high as well, like 68-72% but im having a hard time finding the source on that. ~_~
it is just tradition that children live with family until marriage, the (most commonly first born) son's wife moves in with the male's family. old traditional households can have the whole family (grandparents, mom, dad, sons + wives) under one roof. tradition that i suspect(probably) is changing through more kids wanting independence.
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
I did not know that. That may be a factor. Most 18 year olds are expected to go to college or leave the house at that age in NA.
actually about 59% of men and 51% of women 18-24 still live at home right now, just read about it recently on huff post. The numbers by actual age, 18, 19, 20 were extremely high as well, like 68-72% but im having a hard time finding the source on that. ~_~
yeah, things have changed a lot but the stigma is still there. The economy changed quite drastically, to the point where when the last couple generations were that age, it was actually feasible and affordable to get a decent paying job and actually get a home for a family and such. whereas now, you are lucky if you can find an apartment that is actually affordable, forget about a house altogether, there just arent any anymore.
this generation just doesn't have the opportunities that their parents and granparents had, so the expectations left over are just unrealistic now. not to mention the hundreds of thousands in student loan debt to get a decent paying job, which practically all require a degree to get now, whereas last generation you could get a full college degree with about 3 grand.
On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote: Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more.
It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
Implying all the players here claiming welfare. The ridiculousness really never ends.
If you count health insurance as welfare, then yes? It was literally last year when the U.S. passed a law saying that adults under the age of 26 can say on their parents' health insurance plan.
There's also the stipend that people in Sweden get if then go to university. That's a big difference from the American system of going into debt. These are little things, but they make it easier for someone who is on the fence of weighing of the risks of going full time progaming to choose going pro.
On April 13 2013 07:57 jinorazi wrote: another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born) 18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
This is actually wrong.
In Korea there is a culture of young teens moving out of the home to go apprentice full time at some kind of trade house. This includes music, acting, and pro-gaming among other trades. The main difference between Korea and the west is that parents are more open to the idea of a 14 year old going off and living in a pro-gaming house to train and become a pro gamer.
In NA it wouldn't be culturally acceptable even if those opportunities existed, which they don't. Thus, the average age of your up-and-coming pro gamer in NA is much older than Korea because of how their recruitment system works. When you're able to immerse a young person that is still developing in a pro-gaming environment, it's no wonder they do better than the west. In NA, the same is done for regular sports (sports camps, high school organized play etc..) where they get the talented players at a young age and immerse them in the sport. The age factor is critical.
Also, the idea that everyone in NA moves out at 18 is totally false, and in fact the trend is that kids are staying at home (and coming back home after college) more and more, even into their late 20's.
Maybe Im getting old but since when did Korean parents were more open to the idea of their kids becoming progamers? That would be the ultimate humiliation to their parents in this current/previous generation of oldies. It'd be so absurd and ridiculous that they'd abandon you and kick you outta the house along with throwing down the PC from a 30 storey apartment..
I have no idea what makes people think "progaming" is actually accepted in Korea as a legitimate profession (although its getting there ever so slowly). Its okay being a fan because your not directly involved in it, but having it as a profession is a whole new different thing. The amount of scrutiny you have to overcome from the society is huge and more so years ago during the Boxer/Nada era where there was simply nothing. Those guys lived off instant noodles, no team houses or teams, no salary etc.
Catz fails to see this in context. He doesn't realise just how much sacrifice/effort was made/put into by alot of people to see what we see today from the past 15 years or so. An image of "progaming and esports" in Korea being sort of a legitimate profession and sport with established leagues/teams, sponsors etc. Thats why many don't understand (on TL atleast) why so many people who were involved in making this possible in Korea backlashed so hard when Savior almost pulled the plug on the entire Korean Scene with match fixing scandal.
Based on my own personal experience, these sort of "opportunities" are more open in the western culture hence why its acceptable to not go to an university where as in Asia you'll be looked down upon and treated as a no one. That's why its so amazing to see how esports have gotten this far in Korea which is suffering hugely from all this high society *** attitude and academic qualification paranoia..
If you watch the xellos documentary on youtube, they actually speak to his mom. And his mom actually use to beat him for playing games to much. She even seemed to have been really upset when he left for the teamhouse. She didn't accept him as a pro until he won a major. MVP on the other had, had his parents encourage him to play because he was sickly. So I could see it mixed that parents would let there kids do it. Just theory crafting, because I have no kid, I would tell my kid get your college degree first and try to play, because if playing fails you have your degree to back you up so you don't end up playing online poker for a living.
On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote: Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more.
It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
Implying all the players here claiming welfare. The ridiculousness really never ends.
If you count health insurance as welfare, then yes? It was literally last year when the U.S. passed a law saying that adults under the age of 26 can say on their parents' health insurance plan.
There's also the stipend that people in Sweden get if then go to university. That's a big difference from the American system of going into debt. These are little things, but they make it easier for someone who is on the fence of weighing of the risks of going full time progaming to choose going pro.
Just speaking from a German point of view (as Europe is not a country, but dozens of countries each with a wide spectrum of different policies on the matter): -If you don't or cannot claim welfare, you'll have to pay for health insurance. Sure, it's a whole lot cheaper than in the US, as everybody has to have health insurance (with a few exceptions) and the burden is thus shared between everybody. So no, no one should count health insurance as welfare in itself. -We also have a student loan program. To be eligible, a student has to prove that he is attending classes and/or that he is taking exams and showing sufficient progress. It's also usually a loan that is expected to be paid back after university, not a stipend. My point is: you shouldn't just generalize and attribute the "EU scene"'s (whatever that is) relative success to stereotypes such as young people getting a free pass with this kind of thing here. That line of argumentation is a tad cheap.
On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote: Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more.
It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness".
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive.
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die.
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger.
I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself.
That doesn't exist in the States. Crappy jobs even at 40 hours a week aren't enough to support a single person. You still need roommates to get by.
EPT
