|
On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself.
The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents.
|
It would be nice if we could see some NA pros that have the passion and drive to be the best at Starcraft that we see in Artosis still to this day. I think it would make people a lot more sympathetic to the foreigners trying to get esports dollars.
Catz was saying how Artosis is the best playing caster. I wonder if he is better than any of the NA/EU pros at this point..would be nice to see him play more.
|
|
|
On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself.
I think that depends on where you live. Around here if you make less than or around $20/h you definitely need to work at least 40 hours, and you'll still live a terrible life.
And this is addressing the person who posted above, about Artosis, and NA not having the drive:
If you watched his games vs Top, I doubt hes on a pro level. He got crushed within 9 minutes. Maybe they were bad games, but even on his stream, he's probably high-ish masters. Which is way better than a lot of casters. Considering many are in Gold or Platinum. Though still not on pro level.
Even in NASL way back when he had more free time than he has now, he still went 0 - 11 or so. You're underestimating the pros heavily here.
Also that comment about players not having the drive? That's ridiculous. I'm sure pros like Theognis practice as much as humanly possible, while living in the US. Like in Sweden, you are paid a little pocket money to go to University. Here, it costs about $10,000 - $30,000 per year. No coincidence Sweden has such a high concentration of strong players.
|
On April 13 2013 05:41 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:36 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 03:56 MaestroSC wrote:
And how many players do we have atm who have 0 living expenses to worry about... and STILL dont even come close to playing at level that is competitive with the Koreans.
How many players are on esports teams, collecting salaries... and STILL not getting on a competitive level?
That is mainly who my post was addressing. I think you seriously overestimate salaries. All the players with reasonable salaries are the ones that are competitive. Most others that make good money rely on streaming for that income. by competitive... u mean washing out of tourneys, and giving up, and just saying "well we cant beat koreans so this tournament is a waste of time." ?? cause those are the same people who are literally being handed infinite free time, so that they CAN compete with Koreans... they simply use that Western work ethic to say "meh...koreans play and work soo hard.. ill never beat them so why waste my time trying" Literally how many times have we heard over the past few weeks how many players are simply playing to "beat other foreigners, but not going to bother trying to beat koreans" or how many pros going into every tourney "Well i obviously cant beat the koreans so.. im hoping for top 16"
Yeah, what the hell are you talking about? Which are these players that don't have to stream, don't have to do PR, and don't have to do anything else except practice and refuse to do so?
You're creating the absolute most pathetic strawman imaginable.
|
On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents.
I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work.
EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on.
|
On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on.
You can get a scholarship off of football.
I didn't say you need to work a 35-40 hrs a week to support yourself for sc2. Coaching you can get away with less and still be able to pay rent. But I don't think that's the biggest problem for foreigners sucking. I think it's a combination of being unable to practice on KR ladder (ladder is a bigger part of practice than customs are. TaeJa mentioned in a recent interview that he practice almost exclusively on the ladder)and the lack of mid-tier tournaments.
|
This discussion would be much more constructive if everyone would realize that the "playing online from korea" WILL stop
- next year for certain.
- maybe even starting from 2013 Season 2
- maybe even in Season 1 once EG-TL and Axiom-Acer realize that there is 10 days between ro32 and ro16 to get Visa's and book flights+hotels, and the offline part will last two weeks ( 4 days of ro16 + 7 days of break + 3 days for rest of the rounds ) which looks like a lot of trouble unless you gonna stay US permanent.
Take the above into consideration and the whole region-lock issue that half the talk is about, should really go away.
|
On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on.
With sports, you have a steady line of progression that will tell you when you're probably not going to make it. If you're not that good in high school, you should probably quit. If you're good but can't get scouted and get a college/university scholarship, you should probably quit. If you're in post-secondary and you're not in the top tier of players, you're probably not going to make it to the Pros.
Most importantly, being in that top 1% of pro athletes and musicians may be hard, but once you are in that top 1% and someone notices you, you have your career set for you.
In Esports, you have to be in that 1% for any team anywhere to notice you, and even then you have to be in the top 5% of the top 1% to make more than minimum wage.
|
Thanks for the show JP and crew. I have a feeling moonglade could say so much more on some topics but he is just so manner and nice guy he doesn't want to interrupt or feel as though he's starting drama or something. When he does speak he's always polite and well spoken so I'd like to hear more of his thoughts on ALL the topics! :D
Also, Artosis, please stream more! As a new brotoss player, I find your stream to be simply the best to watch. Not only is your skill level high (maybe some pros are better obviously, but you're higher than 99% of SC2 players) but you take the time to explain what you're doing and WHY. The level of commentary and thoroughness you go over games is unlike any other high level streamer. You don't just talk about the things you do right, but also those you do wrong. This is a goldmine for non-professional protoss players around the world!
Finally, moogle, you seem so happy in episodes lately. So positive and joyous, almost giggle wiggly as Artosis would say. That's good to see. :D
|
On April 13 2013 07:19 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles.
How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her.
How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities.
Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on. You can get a scholarship off of football.
I think he was talking about soccer, where a lot of players don't have a university degree or sometimes even high school qualifications to fall back on.
|
On April 13 2013 07:20 rename wrote:
This discussion would be much more constructive if everyone would realize that the "playing online from korea" WILL stop
- next year for certain.
- maybe even starting from 2013 Season 2
- maybe even in Season 1 once EG-TL and Axiom-Acer realize that there is 10 days between ro32 and ro16 to get Visa's and book flights+hotels, and the offline part will last two weeks ( 4 days of ro16 + 7 days of break + 3 days for rest of the rounds ) which looks like a lot of trouble unless you gonna stay US permanent.
Take the above into consideration and the whole region-lock issue that half the talk is about, should really go away.
You have no idea what you're talking about, the tournament will not be solely offline until at the very least 2014, and I doubt it will be even then. Furthermore, I think it's a safe bet that Nazgul and Genna and Alex Garfield have taken the factors you mentioned int consideration, because they are not incompetent, blithering idiots.
|
On April 13 2013 07:23 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:19 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:
[quote]
Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money.
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on. You can get a scholarship off of football. I think he was talking about soccer, where a lot of players don't have a university degree or sometimes even high school qualifications to fall back on.
I'm not familiar with how it is to rise up in soccer. Aren't there mid-level clubs/leagues before rising to the premier leagues?
|
On April 13 2013 07:25 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:23 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 07:19 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:
[quote]
It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on. You can get a scholarship off of football. I think he was talking about soccer, where a lot of players don't have a university degree or sometimes even high school qualifications to fall back on. I'm not familiar with how it is to rise up in soccer. Aren't there mid-level clubs and stuff before rising to the premier leagues?
Yeah, but the vast, vast majority of players end up not making it past a fairly low level and then they're stuck without any qualifications trying to support themselves and possibly their family.
|
On April 13 2013 07:27 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:25 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:23 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 07:19 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:
[quote]
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on. You can get a scholarship off of football. I think he was talking about soccer, where a lot of players don't have a university degree or sometimes even high school qualifications to fall back on. I'm not familiar with how it is to rise up in soccer. Aren't there mid-level clubs and stuff before rising to the premier leagues? Yeah, but the vast, vast majority of players end up not making it past a fairly low level and then they're stuck without any qualifications trying to support themselves and possibly their family.
What are people discussing in here anyways? I'm lost rofl xD. Isn't that the same for every progamer Korean and non-Koreans in the long run?
|
On April 13 2013 07:27 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:25 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:23 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 07:19 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:
[quote]
That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on. You can get a scholarship off of football. I think he was talking about soccer, where a lot of players don't have a university degree or sometimes even high school qualifications to fall back on. I'm not familiar with how it is to rise up in soccer. Aren't there mid-level clubs and stuff before rising to the premier leagues? Yeah, but the vast, vast majority of players end up not making it past a fairly low level and then they're stuck without any qualifications trying to support themselves and possibly their family.
I think a good analogy (or more apt) to the struggle of today's sc2 progamers are MMA fighters. MMA is a relatively new sport that was basically built for the mainstream in only the last decade. Esports, specifically SC2 isn't even CLOSE to the level of MMA and aspiring fighters from all over the world have to sacrifice basically everything with almost no hope of really ever 'making' it. Aspiring fighters try to hold jobs and train, save money, quit, train full time, pray to land a big contract or sponsorship before getting hurt and put school and life on hold. I'm not sure what aspiring progamers really expect to be honest. Some of the comments I hear on streams or in threads is very surreal. When you're trying to be someone who makes a good living or a living at all in an incredibly competitive, incredibly niche market you have to work INSANELY hard and sacrifice basically everything for your chance. This is not unlike anything else in the world. I have a feeling it's because most progamers are very young and are a bit naive to the real world. They overvalue their worth as someone who literally plays video games for a living.
There are some good documentaries on netflix of rising and established MMA athletes and the sacrifices they make to be professionals. Perhaps esports just needs a bit of perspective. I think we are such a passionate bunch we often lose sight of reality and how small we really are still. The good news is that we're growing!
|
On April 13 2013 07:31 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:27 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 07:25 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:23 kollin wrote:On April 13 2013 07:19 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 07:10 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:40 ROOTheognis wrote:On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:
[quote]
That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week.
Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself. The best way for an up-and-comping pro to support themselve isn't working a 9-5, it's coaching. It does eat up a lot of hours but it's the only way in the foreign scene unless you are fortunate enough to be living with your parents. I don't know how it is to live in USA, but in Europe, atleast in Denmark, you do not have to work from 9 to 5. If you work, say 35 hours a week, working in weekends aswell you'd have to work 5 hours a day. Wake up at 07:00, be at work at 08:00 and you can be home again by 14:00 depending on distance to your work. EDIT: Obviously i am not trying to say that supporting yourself as a progamer isen't going to be an up hill battle, but it is not all that different from supporting yourself as a musician or by playing a regular sport such as football. You people talk about going to University but if you compare to real sports, most people don't have anything else to fall back on. You can get a scholarship off of football. I think he was talking about soccer, where a lot of players don't have a university degree or sometimes even high school qualifications to fall back on. I'm not familiar with how it is to rise up in soccer. Aren't there mid-level clubs and stuff before rising to the premier leagues? Yeah, but the vast, vast majority of players end up not making it past a fairly low level and then they're stuck without any qualifications trying to support themselves and possibly their family. What are people discussing in here anyways? I'm lost rofl xD. Isn't that the same for every progamer Korean and non-Koreans in the long run?
It was the classic argument that foreigners are lazy vs "Yo, bills are like a real thing". It was going pretty well for a while, with people understanding that Catz and NA teams just a stable tournament like GSL that is mostly offline. But there was a sub discussion where people were attempting to claim you could become really good at SC2 and pay your bills working part time at a Safeway.
|
On April 13 2013 06:39 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:04 Branman wrote:On April 13 2013 06:02 Prog455 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:23 forsooth wrote:On April 13 2013 03:23 vesicular wrote:On April 13 2013 03:19 Empirimancer wrote:On April 13 2013 03:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 13 2013 01:27 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Artosis hit it on the head:
I dont think there is anyone in the WCS NA that Scarlett cant beat
But then Catz gave off the EPITOME of the western scene train of thought,
"Yeah but thats Scarlett"
might have been "Ya but she trains a lot, practises a lot, and works a lot harder than the rest of us"
in all honesty. She came from NA. Rose to fame from NA. Obtained a skill level that made it possible to beat koreans... IN NA.
she is the "Idra" of SC2 currently who is proving, if you arent such a lazy POS you CAN compete. But you have to work as hard as you possibly can.
I am sorry, but winners have to make sacrifices to become the best.
Hit it again,
Now western players are practising only "enough to beat other non-koreans". Seriously, NA players are still complaining about their lack of opportunities when we have nearly 100 foreign players who are Full-time pro gamers, who STILL arent working as hard as koreans... what is your excuse for not training/working hard even when you are litterally getting paid to play FULL TIME.
And Catz hit it on the head, "but most of us arent motivated by the accomplishment of self-improvement and becoming better. we care about money."
the more i watch this last SotG Catz demonstrates exactly why NA/Euro cant/wont keep up... because were just lazier in comparison to the Koreans who want it more. It's this kind of ignorant talk that keeps driving this discussion into circles. How old is Scarlett? Nineteen. She got into the scene at a point in her life where she had far less responsibilities than other people older than her. How old was IdrA? He got his ticket to Korea in his last year of high school...once again, at a point in his life where he could afford to put in all the hours of practice with few other responsibilities. Koreans on a team have no expenses to worry about, and no other responsibilities other than practicing and competing. But apparently caring about food, rent, and day-to-day living is "laziness". Exactly. Catz specified multiple times that he wasn't talking about "Sweet I can buy a yacht" money, he was talking about "Ah, I can eat and sleep under a roof" money. It is entirely possible to hold a job so you can "eat and sleep under a roof" and still train SC2 80+ hours per week. It all depends on how much you want it. In my opinion it's not about laziness, it's about drive. That's beyond ridiculous. You can't work 40 hours and train 80 more. You'd die. That is true, but you can work 40 hours, play 40 hours and still get 8 hours of sleep. And why would you work 40 hours a week? Atleast in Europe you can easily support a single person by working less than 40 hours a week. Europe has a lot of social programs which help out a LOT. That's probably a big reason that the EU scene is stronger. I am not talking about social programs. I am talking about having a crappy job for 20-30 hours a week is enough to support yourself.
Depending on the country. Here you won't live with that kind of job and paying rent, internet, food if you are living alone.
Anyways, it's not only about 20 hours. You also have to go to work, and come from work. That ussually takes 1-3 extra hours for each day. If you are working a 6 day a week job / 24 hours a week, and getting to your job takes 1 hour, you can guess you should add 12 hours more to that calculation yuo are doing 
I had a work quite far on a airport, and man, did i lose many hours of my live on a bus just to get to work.
|
On April 13 2013 07:25 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 07:20 rename wrote:
This discussion would be much more constructive if everyone would realize that the "playing online from korea" WILL stop
- next year for certain.
- maybe even starting from 2013 Season 2
- maybe even in Season 1 once EG-TL and Axiom-Acer realize that there is 10 days between ro32 and ro16 to get Visa's and book flights+hotels, and the offline part will last two weeks ( 4 days of ro16 + 7 days of break + 3 days for rest of the rounds ) which looks like a lot of trouble unless you gonna stay US permanent.
Take the above into consideration and the whole region-lock issue that half the talk is about, should really go away. You have no idea what you're talking about, the tournament will not be solely offline until at the very least 2014, and I doubt it will be even then. Furthermore, I think it's a safe bet that Nazgul and Genna and Alex Garfield have taken the factors you mentioned int consideration, because they are not incompetent, blithering idiots.
The NA decision was done way before the exact dates of MLG offline segment were set in stone and it's well known that in this mess team managers havent been properly informed either which is a fuckup by blizzard/MLG.
Somewhy everyone was talking about a one weekend tournament - perhaps because of this misleading post which omits the NA offline Ro16 part http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7988052/WCS_Season_1_Dates-09_04_2013
|
another cultural difference (stereotype):
18yr old korean: live with family (especially 1st born)
18yr old western: gtfo go solo
maybe that has something to do with enough time vs not enough time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
