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On June 23 2012 03:33 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:18 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 23 2012 02:42 fraktoasters wrote:On June 23 2012 02:34 dvorakftw wrote:On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective? Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'. Meh. Day9 was the one that was telling Idra to keep building Infestors and Queens was Zergs were having a hard time lol. #justafterinfestorswerebuffed and guess what it took 6month+ to get stephano style going mainstream outside eu, and everytime ppl were saying "idk eu zergs are smashing terrans with infestors but everybody else goes mutas" ud get shat on. only guy in kr to build infestor was life, only in us catz and destiny so ppl used that to say its not good Um no it was before. But the point was that dvorakftw wanted someone to whine for Terran instead of saying something like "they just need to keep building hellions", and I'm saying that if Day9 was on the show he would probably just say "they just need to keep building ravens"
i dont think day9 is that dumb lol, i dont think hes dumb at all he just doesnt comment on balance, and i remember after infestor buff he was advising mass infestor yes, mb he did before idk. but when he actually talks i dont think hes bad at all, he used to be better than artosis anyway
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On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored.
I would bet blizzard made many of their changes using the balance discussions in the community. 1/1/1 comes to mind.. so it's not quite the way you put it.. balance discussion might be productive; they are quite uninteresting though.
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On June 23 2012 03:40 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. hmm if anything PvZ/ZvP and TvZ/ZvT are pretty boring to watch now.
well that's not true at all
unless you find games with similar openings automatically boring. myself I think the games are better than ever because the players are better than ever. did you watch the last group of gsl? so many great games, long and back and forth. I love it.
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What I find really boring about PvZ is that the opening is the same 99% of the time, in TvZ there's always that chance that there'll be a 2 rax, proxy 2 rax, banshee etc... there's so many things the Terran can open with that it makes it much more exciting (for me).
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On June 23 2012 03:54 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I would bet blizzard made many of their changes using the balance discussions in the community. 1/1/1 comes to mind.. so it's not quite the way you put it.. balance discussion might be productive; they are quite uninteresting though.
why would you bet that? you think the games didn't speak for themselves with 1/1/1?
both the frequency that we saw it and the frequency that it was successful
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On June 23 2012 03:11 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:55 Digitalis wrote:
With HotS beta projected for release sometime this summer is Blizzard even going to care to cater to balance whining at this point? I feel like they're going to have their plate full balancing the shit out of all the new HotS additions. Why would they bother, when the metagame slate of sc2 is about to be wiped clean? If they did change/patch sc2 right now it would take a couple of months for the community to feel the waters to see if the patch is appropriate but by that time no one is going to give a flying fuck because either we'll be playing the HotS beta or HotS itself. Because we're playing WoL, not HotS.
Did you not read my post? I just explained my opinion on why Blizzard doesn't care about balancing WoL at the moment because it'll be obsolete when HotS comes out. If you're going to respond at least say something like "The pro scene won't transition of HotS immediately and WoL will still be relevant." But honestly if you're not a pro player this won't matter. I assume when HotS comes out everyone will transition 'eventually' because there is no reason to stay, there isn't a nostalgia factor like there was with broodwar.
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On June 23 2012 04:01 Digitalis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:11 Saechiis wrote:On June 23 2012 02:55 Digitalis wrote:
With HotS beta projected for release sometime this summer is Blizzard even going to care to cater to balance whining at this point? I feel like they're going to have their plate full balancing the shit out of all the new HotS additions. Why would they bother, when the metagame slate of sc2 is about to be wiped clean? If they did change/patch sc2 right now it would take a couple of months for the community to feel the waters to see if the patch is appropriate but by that time no one is going to give a flying fuck because either we'll be playing the HotS beta or HotS itself. Because we're playing WoL, not HotS. Did you not read my post? I just explained my opinion on why Blizzard doesn't care about balancing WoL at the moment because it'll be obsolete when HotS comes out. If you're going to respond at least say something like "The pro scene won't transition of HotS immediately and WoL will still be relevant." But honestly if you're not a pro player this won't matter. I assume when HotS comes out everyone will transition 'eventually' because there is no reason to stay, there isn't a nostalgia factor like there was with broodwar.
Not true, balance on WoL has no impact on HotS they said it like this week. Both will be balanced seperately.
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On June 23 2012 03:33 fraktoasters wrote:
But the point was that dvorakftw wanted someone to whine for Terran
Nice choice of verb. I suppose it is impossible to speak or comment or discuss anything? It's just all whine?
Anyway, the question was why is there a stronger complaint now than before about no Terrans on SotG and I think the most likely answer is the abscence of Day9 (and QXC and Illusion or even giving avilo a chance), even if everything he (they) would have hypothetically said on this particular issue turned out to be wrong.
As to NoNy's recent comment, I don't quite see the difference between discussing balance and discussing strategy and metagame. And even if there is a difference, I disagree that good ideas cannot come out such discussions. Sure Blizzard will ignore 99% of them and maybe 0.99% of the remaining 1% of ideas they do try don't work out it can still lead to one great new change that originated from someone in the community having a clever thought.
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On June 23 2012 03:56 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:40 zhurai wrote:On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. hmm if anything PvZ/ZvP and TvZ/ZvT are pretty boring to watch now. well that's not true at all unless you find games with similar openings automatically boring. myself I think the games are better than ever because the players are better than ever. did you watch the last group of gsl? so many great games, long and back and forth. I love it.
The games are less dynamic and suspenseful imo, specifically ZvT. Midgame aggression has been hit so heavily that you basically never see a Zerg die to a 2 base Terran anymore. Some people might think that's really great because you get to see more macro games, but I just think it kills the variety of games we see. I'm saying this as a Zerg too btw.
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On June 23 2012 03:54 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I would bet blizzard made many of their changes using the balance discussions in the community. 1/1/1 comes to mind.. so it's not quite the way you put it.. balance discussion might be productive; they are quite uninteresting though.
Productive implies all changes have been positive. The problem is that we don't know whether they have been positive or not in regards to actual balance, because there are very few things that are exact science when it comes to balance.
Which is why the "discussions" have always been about whether the complaints are loud enough or not and whether the statistics are favorable or not, neither of which is an argument related to actual balance. They're not even discussions in the true sense of the word - shitstorm is a much more accurate description.
I hope people will realize that tweaking unit attributes just to even out the win/loss ratios and make players of a struggling race happier for a short period of time is a fundamentally horrible idea and if people really give a fuck about the game, they will stop pressuring Blizzard into changing things just to appease them and silence the said shitstorm.
Khaydarin amulet was the last fundamentally imbalanced element in WoL. Everything after that had nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with tweaking the metagame to help out one race or the other during a tough time, just because having 45%ish matchups for longer than a month or two looks bad and makes people angry.
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Liquid Rising is out, how about you guys go watch that and just be happy.
At least we're not a starving nation in Africa!
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On June 23 2012 03:54 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I would bet blizzard made many of their changes using the balance discussions in the community. 1/1/1 comes to mind.. so it's not quite the way you put it.. balance discussion might be productive; they are quite uninteresting though.
Bet based on what? Your word over an experienced pro-gamer's word?
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I agree with Nony. 
Otherwise... I feel like the mirror match ups for Zerg and Protoss are feeling a helluva lot more fun than the cross race match ups of late.
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On June 23 2012 06:56 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I agree completely with this Nony Fighting!
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This is the best thread on Teamliquid for entertainment purposes without a doubt, I can't tell if Incontrol actually believes what he is saying or if he's just trolling but It's funny either way.
The TvZ subject has been discussed to death at this point but really, if you can't see that It's broken you just don't know what to look for. And don't say wait and see, there's nothing to wait and see, Wings of Liberty has been nearly completely figured out at this point. Zerg has the advantage in all stages of the game instead of just the late-game like they did before the patch. If having the advantage at every point in the game just because of the race you play, regardless of skill is not imbalanced then I don't know what is.
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On June 23 2012 07:08 System42 wrote:I agree completely with this Nony Fighting!
Yay, can't really argue or deny anything NonY wrote there.
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On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored.
"The players should play to win, and the designers should balance for fair and exciting competition."
This part I agree with, but what about the fan part? If it stops being fun to spectate, as tvz has recently become because of the queen change, then what should the fans do? TvZ was perfectly fine pre-patch and the most balanced non-mirror statistically for months in a row, while also being the most entertaining to watch, and Blizzard threw a wrench into the cogs of the matchup, and reset all the knowledge of the terran side of the matchup, and for what? The patch was completely pointless and ruined the matchup. Fuck balance whining, but fans should be able to complain if something looks broken. It's either that or stop watching, and I don't think you'd want that for SC2.
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On June 23 2012 06:56 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Thisx1000, let the truth of silence exorcize the balance whine demons within, and be gone with them all!
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Balance discussion is the same as when people talk about referee calls in sports. When there is obviously something fishy, guess what everyone talks about? I don't understand why people think they are a superior breed because they are above discussing ways they think the game can be improved. If you guys are seriously hung up on dipshit fanboys and people who don't know what they are talking about; how in the fuck do you enjoy anything in the world? Guess what everyone finds fishy? The queen buff. Guess what was under represented in SotG? If you act like an asshat saying there is no problem when a huge call in a game worked in your favor and you tell the other team to stfu, you actually make things a lot worse. Keep your mouth shut or try to think on some other level rather than your own for 10 seconds. I agreed with just about ever change before the ghost nerf; because I actually have thoughts that make sense and don't think balance should be bunched into nothing but whining.
Pretty sure no one told that to Ireland when they got denied a spot because Henry punched the ball into the goal for a place in the last world cup. I understand this is a soccer reference, so my credibility has just gone down 99%. (I understand that me being American and calling it soccer lost the last 1% I could have had.)
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