EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 2346
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Irre
United States646 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:45 Irre wrote: these forums are always protoss/zerg bias bc thats the only races foreigners can compete with pretty much so deal with it... SotG is awesome, woudl be nice to have a T but its not really a big deal. ( ahh the days of Banshee vs DT). In any case, the reason terrans are so mad is that the top T players in Korea are basically better than the rest of the pros, and the fact they should be held back from winning by imbalance/bad game design is lame. (Nestea and DRG and MC are obvious exceptions bc they actually won a lot of stuff not just being a fluke). lol yeah I agree with you it has always made me wonder how other Terran players are always by the Anti-Terran sentiments and some what biased view when they are on TL. which is a Foreigner forum more than anything and we know that there are very few foreigners that have the capacity to play Terran at high pro level. With majority of the Foreigner pro base Protoss and Zerg it's only natural that these are the general sentiments. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:45 Irre wrote: these forums are always protoss/zerg bias bc thats the only races foreigners can compete with pretty much so deal with it... SotG is awesome, woudl be nice to have a T but its not really a big deal. ( ahh the days of Banshee vs DT). In any case, the reason terrans are so mad is that the top T players in Korea are basically better than the rest of the pros, and the fact they should be held back from winning by imbalance/bad game design is lame. (Nestea and DRG and MC are obvious exceptions bc they actually won a lot of stuff not just being a fluke). The top korean terrans are not somehow magically more skilled than their zerg and protoss peers. | ||
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a20Ekim
United States46 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:01 iNcontroL wrote: I have actually stated on shows numerous times that balance whining is dumb.. even said it was bad of me to do it. It was wrong during the sad zealot time and it is wrong now. Want to know the difference? Protoss never went into the Lo3/ITG/SOTG threads and unified their effort to spray the forums with their cat urine. It's gross and pathetic. We mock it because for w/e reason terran players after nearly 2 years of dominating SC2 are MORE mad than the rest of us combined. WOOT! Hi again iNcontroL, Actually, Protoss did the same thing in ITG’s thread. The next 20 pages around that episode are filled with Protoss players talking about the 1/1/1 in the same way Terran players are talking about TvZ here. The LR threads from that era were just as bad on the issue of 1/1/1 as they are now on the issue of TvZ. The SC2 Strategy forum was pretty bad during that time as well. The only difference is, unlike Terran, Protoss had (and has) representative(s) on the show(s). Right or wrong, they had someone there to discuss for their side and let their story get heard. It was obviously short notice; so, JP could not get one for this specific episode (thanks for trying to get Illusion JP), but what about in the future to more thoroughly discuss it? Is belittlement and minimization really the way a discussion should happen? One of the reasons people are responding in such a negative way is the additional fuel that was thrown onto the fire. Can you really blame them for fighting negativity with negativity? | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:50 hzflank wrote: The top korean terrans are not somehow magically more skilled than their zerg and protoss peers. why not? Overall look at BW and how many top terrans there are/were over the years comparitive to P and Z...there were always more terran in korea because of this because average players wanted to mimick their favorite stars ( Boxer and Nada most notably). This definitely carried into sc2 and its natural that the top players skewed towards Terran for a long time. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:55 a20Ekim wrote: Hi again iNcontroL, Actually, Protoss did the same thing in ITG’s thread. The next 20 pages around that episode are filled with Protoss players talking about the 1/1/1 in the same way Terran players are talking about TvZ here. The LR threads from that era were just as bad on the issue of 1/1/1 as they are now on the issue of TvZ. The SC2 Strategy forum was pretty bad during that time as well. The only difference is, unlike Terran, Protoss had (and has) representative(s) on the show(s). Right or wrong, they had someone there to discuss for their side and let their story get heard. It was obviously short notice; so, JP could not get one for this specific episode (thanks for trying to get Illusion JP), but what about in the future to more thoroughly discuss it? Is belittlement and minimization really the way a discussion should happen? One of the reasons people are responding in such a negative way is the additional fuel that was thrown onto the fire. Can you really blame them for fighting negativity with negativity? Hi! And no, that thread wasn't like that.. you are making that up. Also! The show DOES have a rep.. his name is PainUser, hi! He uses terran as well! Wow! Please don't make stuff up like the ITG thread had raging protoss yelling at the show calling out them, their lives and what they do for a living because they didn't like the way the show represented their race. Thanks! | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:13 stratmatt wrote: Thats a 'pro' gamer for ya everybody....Really dissappointing, incontrol. I hope our esport thrives despite the immaturity you bring to the scene. You need to shut up. Laughing at supid idiots is always fine  | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
Two questions for iNcontroL: 1. I agree you are better qualified to discuss TvZ than 99.9999% of the Starraft 2 population and I believe avilo is wrong to say you are not qualified to discuss Terran, but do you believe you are better qualified than avilo? 2. Would you give odds for your showmatch challenge? If so, how high? 2-1? 3-1? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:31 lorestarcraft wrote: You need to shut up. Laughing at supid idiots is always fine I couldn't make it through a day of work without it. This has sort of turned into meta-trolling for SotG fans who enjoy watching Incontrol poke the less reasonable members of the community. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I love you. I wish more people thought like this. | ||
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Khazroul
United Kingdom206 Posts
The difference here, is that zergs are still losing quite a bit despite making a lot more queens than before, and although I agree that terrans are worse now, they are still winning far more than protoss were then. I also disliked the sad zealot thing and I have to say, maybe we should learn from that mistake? Sure the immortal got buffed which helped vs the 1-1-1, but also styles of protoss play shifted and it became less potent. You can quote that thread as justification for your whine, but that thread was dumb, but at least it was the first time the community was dumb. Why are you being dumb for a second time? People just need to try out more stuff as terran and perhaps in the future zerg will be nerfed in some way, perhaps not even via the queen at all. Just give it some time. Also I think something interesting to note, is that a long time ago zergs major complaint vs t was scouting, we didn't know for sure whether we were getting triple CC into double upg and banshees or FE into 5rax or any sort of variation really, so it could be a huge attack incoming or they could be way ahead on economy. Right now it's basically turned right around, where if the terran goes for an early push, zerg can hold it much easier via queen buff etc, and if the terran goes triple CC econ "cheese" zerg can switch quickly into a roach bane attack. I feel like perhaps blizzard could have buffed OL speed in that patch, and then made a patch soon after buffing queens a bit if needed, because the main problem for zerg was in the information they could get. Maybe OL speed + making spines build 5s faster or something along those lines so they could actually be a reaction to the scouted info? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. Well said. Though there has been a lot of whining and bitching coming from pros from BETA, so it's no surprise the community acts the same. | ||
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Ballack
Norway821 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. While this is definitely true, there are many reasons for people whining on balance, and the mindset I think is almost completely impossible to change in a game like Starcraft. So many people put so much pride into playing this game (especially 1v1), and they use balance defensively to shield them from the embarrassment that is to lose. These people are the typical ragers, but what I think also factor in is that the people receiving the rage often start counter-arguing the people whining. So even people who aren't as susceptible to talk about balance gets dragged in by others making silly claims. I think the same goes for a lot of pro players, and while it's sad, I think it is a reality that will be very hard to bump away. | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. do you actually think like that in practice ? if u had lost 50 games in a row to 1/1/1 done by trash terrans ud think "i need to work on my skills ?" honest question, apparently jaedong is like that but ive never met anybody who behaves that way and how is it unproductive doesnt blizzard listen to players ? dont they react to the community opinion ? im not saying its good but it really looks that way sometimes. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. very true. even if something is imbalanced, in a game like starcraft 2 it will never be so bad that it's actually impossible to win, you're just gonna have to try harder. whether that is fair is a different question entirely, but the only way a player can actively work on his winrate is by practicing and improving his play, not by complaining about balance. | ||
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I think having a discussion of balance at a proper level is always productive. I doubt Blizzard would've made all of the balance decisions they've made in the game so far it wasn't for there always being some kind of consensus forming around certain matters which were brought to light in different forums discussing balance, forums open and accessible for the public generating hundreds of thousands of different opinions. Saying Blizzard should be the only actor in the process of balancing is like saying the author of a book should be its only critic. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I agree with this, and it makes sense to me. However, Blizzard has said that community and pro feedback and comments do play some role in balancing, at least as far as bringing up concerns. The more information Blizzard has to balance the game, the better, so long as they aren't swayed by false information. If the discussion is rational, it can probably do more good than harm, unless the guys at Blizzard suck at what they're doing, in which case we're screwed anyway. Edit: And as well, as a spectator I like to know about what everyone thinks about balance. If the general consensus is something like "Terran is having a lot of trouble against Zerg right now" (not necessarily meaning a patch is needed but just statistically,) it's adds some story to every TvZ by default. Even if I don't know anything about the players, there's a higher level of excitement. By this I don't mean that the game is better when winrates are out of balance, but I just mean that when they are out of balance, I want to hear about it all the time so it's really hammered into my head which can bring a higher level of excitement to the game. Having said all that, I think most balance discussion is highly biased and irrational and isn't very close to optimal, to the point where it's hard to take it seriously so it doesn't even do the job of hammering information into my head very well. | ||
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tranmillitary
210 Posts
On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition. Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored. I agree with this somewhat.... but blizzard is playing with their wealth. Korea is not a 3rd world country but they're much more poor than Americans. I have korean buddies and they live here because it's a better life for them. If Nada who made massive amounts of money is claiming he's broke, imagine the pro gamers nowadays. Winning a tournament can help feed your family. How can you feed your family when the battle is so steep like tvz currently. WHEN DRG, WHO IS THE BEST ZERG PLAYER, EVEN ADMITS IT'S IMBALANCED.... IT'S IMBALANCED. Blizzard should fix it now. Zerg's and protoss players bitched about Blue flame, ghosts, Gold mining mules.... it all got nerfed the very next patch. There was nothing wrong with the zvt match up in the first place, Terran had better mid game, zerg had better late game. I don't see why blizzard even touched that match up. Blizzard doesn't care about anyone except money. Why would they even put resources into making this game balance if the community doesn't speak up?? If we didn't, then they could just ignore everything and sit on their billions of dollars. Honestly, Blizzard doesn't care about SC 2... once you pay the 50 dollars, that's it. With WoW, they constantly patched the game because they wanted to keep the subscribers. This is why I'm kinda hoping SC 2 has a pay option so Blizzard can make the game as balanced as possible. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:14 Gfire wrote: I agree with this, and it makes sense to me. However, Blizzard has said that community and pro feedback and comments do play some role in balancing, at least as far as bringing up concerns. The more information Blizzard has to balance the game, the better, so long as they aren't swayed by false information. If the discussion is rational, it can probably do more good than harm, unless the guys at Blizzard suck at what they're doing, in which case we're screwed anyway. They probably look at the number of 'feedback' (whining :p) on Battle.net and maybe sometimes even TL.net/reddit and look at what the general problem seems to be. If it matches with the stats they have internally over all the ladders and leagues and then tournaments. They then decide if there's an actual problem that needs and can be balanced properly. | ||
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