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On June 23 2012 02:14 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored.
I agree with this, and it makes sense to me. However, Blizzard has said that community and pro feedback and comments do play some role in balancing, at least as far as bringing up concerns. The more information Blizzard has to balance the game, the better, so long as they aren't swayed by false information. If the discussion is rational, it can probably do more good than harm, unless the guys at Blizzard suck at what they're doing, in which case we're screwed anyway.
I think part of Tyler's point is that players (casual but perhaps especially pro players) shouldn't spend energy on it for their own good. It is a mistake on their part to put efforts regarding balance away from trying to solve their problems in order to become better. Also, casuals should try to focus more on having fun, as that should be their entire goal from this game unless they are pursuing a career.
Blizzard has the means and resources to be able to balance the game anyway.
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On June 23 2012 00:01 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 23:45 a20Ekim wrote:On June 22 2012 17:56 iNcontroL wrote:
OH MY GAWD!! ! ! We told terrans things are in flux and post patch races always struggle after a buff/nerf??? WE NEVER SAID THAT TO ZERGS RIGHT?
ahhaahahahah
The fact there is THIS much of a shit storm in this thread really only proves all the mocking we did about terrans being whiney pussies who can't man the fuck up and just play the damn game.
There is a race icon on TL .. check that then check those bitching. It's actually fucking hilarious. Hi iNcontroL, Think back to the "Sad Zealot" time period where many protoss felt the 1/1/1 was imbalanced. In your own words, "the game is imbalanced against protoss and they're all dying" - iNcontroL (Inside the Game Episode 16 28:20). Terran seems to be in a similar situation. The metagame suddenly, aggressively changed, and Terran, just like Protoss was back then, is struggling to find an answer. Maybe you are right and Terran hasn’t given the metagame enough time, but why are you so quick to dismiss their potentially legitimate concerns that the patch might have been a little too far? Why completely refuse to hear them out? I have actually stated on shows numerous times that balance whining is dumb.. even said it was bad of me to do it. It was wrong during the sad zealot time and it is wrong now. Want to know the difference? Protoss never went into the Lo3/ITG/SOTG threads and unified their effort to spray the forums with their cat urine. It's gross and pathetic. We mock it because for w/e reason terran players after nearly 2 years of dominating SC2 are MORE mad than the rest of us combined. WOOT!
LOL! Really iNcontrol?
"Want to know the difference? Protoss never went into the Lo3/ITG/SOTG threads and unified their effort to spray the forums with their cat urine. It's gross and pathetic."
...
Want to know the difference? The reason protoss players never went to SOTG threads to rage about it is because SOTG are all full of protoss players, who noded their heads in approval that protoss is broken and completely imbalanced during its time. Now that terran is going through the same thing, is it really a surprise that all the protoss hosts on SOTG claim that terran players are all just "whiny" and should man up? Nope.
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i think that the simple solution to all of this is just to have SOTG pay-per-view. i doubt the whiny entitled bitches will pay for it and then they will have nothing to bitch about in this thread anymore. of course, the initial 50-pages of "fuck PPV," "see, i told you SOTG is a MLG sell-out," etc. will be annoying to get through. but once we are over that hump, it will all be flowers and rainbows because they'll all be gone.
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8751 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:08 Mouzone wrote:
I think having a discussion of balance at a proper level is always productive.
It's not productive if the people making the decisions don't know or care about it. But assuming that isn't the case, I think your claim is obviously true. Discussing balance is obviously helpful for achieving balance. Positing that there's some threshold under which discussion is unhelpful and over which discussion is helpful also seems very obvious to me.
On June 23 2012 02:08 Mouzone wrote:
I doubt Blizzard would've made all of the balance decisions they've made in the game so far it wasn't for there always being some kind of consensus forming around certain matters which were brought to light in different forums discussing balance, forums open and accessible for the public generating hundreds of thousands of different opinions.
Blizzard is indeed aware of public discussions on balance. Doubtless they have had an effect. As far as I can tell, that's all you're saying here. Whether the effect has been positive or negative is impossible to tell.
The only thing I might add to my post is that Blizzard may also ask for feedback publicly. However for SC2, it seems that they mainly gather public data and private opinions, not public opinions. They definitely don't need to ask for public opinions.
There is certainly a ton of discussion going on which is what motivated my post in the first place. I imagine that most of it's beneath the threshold you mentioned in your first sentence. Whether or not Blizzard cares about it all won't be apparent until it disappears and Blizzard asks for its return. So I doubt we'll ever know. In either case, they will be thankful that it exists and always gracious for the community's concerns and efforts, useless as they may be.
On June 23 2012 02:08 Mouzone wrote:
Saying Blizzard should be the only actor in the process of balancing is like saying the author of a book should be its only critic.
I didn't say Blizzard should be the only actor in the process. When they want external feedback, they ask for it.
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8751 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:14 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored.
I agree with this, and it makes sense to me. However, Blizzard has said that community and pro feedback and comments do play some role in balancing, at least as far as bringing up concerns. The more information Blizzard has to balance the game, the better, so long as they aren't swayed by false information. If the discussion is rational, it can probably do more good than harm, unless the guys at Blizzard suck at what they're doing, in which case we're screwed anyway.
Pro games are much more useful to Blizzard than pro comments. Blizzard watches all the major tournaments and keeps track of the performances of each race. That's all the pros of the weakest race have to do is try their hardest to win and if over the next several months they win significantly less frequently, Blizzard will absolutely take action. Blizzard still asks for pro comments when necessary. Pros don't need to volunteer them on Twitter emo-style.
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On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective?
Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'.
Meh.
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On June 23 2012 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
i think that the simple solution to all of this is just to have SOTG pay-per-view. i doubt the whiny entitled bitches will pay for it and then they will have nothing to bitch about in this thread anymore. of course, the initial 50-pages of "fuck PPV," "see, i told you SOTG is a MLG sell-out," etc. will be annoying to get through. but once we are over that hump, it will all be flowers and rainbows because they'll all be gone.
Erm...Calling it a simple solution doesn't make it so. For one they just signed a deal with a company, I'm pretty sure they set up a plan for such matters then, and so changing that now would hardly be a "simple solution" (that is if PPV isn't already in the works). Secondly, I would think the hosts wants to get even more established before venturing into that territory. I'm not necessarily saying it wouldn't be profitable enough to sustain itself, but as far as I'm concerned they would profit more by getting more exposure before going PPV. PPV functions as a profitable business model for shows with a large fanbase to feed from. Once you go PPV it will be very hard to attract new viewers.
Also, I don't see how a vocal minority whining about stuff is that serious. It may get to the nerves of the hosts, but other than that it has very little to do with how the show progress and develop. If you get annoyed by some "entitled bitches" on a forum, perhaps you should rather try to contextualize how this new media works. This is how things are gonna be for the (at least) nearest future, get used to it.
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On June 23 2012 02:35 Ballack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
i think that the simple solution to all of this is just to have SOTG pay-per-view. i doubt the whiny entitled bitches will pay for it and then they will have nothing to bitch about in this thread anymore. of course, the initial 50-pages of "fuck PPV," "see, i told you SOTG is a MLG sell-out," etc. will be annoying to get through. but once we are over that hump, it will all be flowers and rainbows because they'll all be gone. Erm...Calling it a simple solution doesn't make it so. For one they just signed a deal with a company, I'm pretty sure they set up a plan for such matters then, and so changing that now would hardly be a "simple solution" (that is if PPV isn't already in the works). Secondly, I would think the hosts wants to get even more established before venturing into that territory. I'm not necessarily saying it wouldn't be profitable enough to sustain itself, but as far as I'm concerned they would profit more by getting more exposure before going PPV. PPV functions as a profitable business model for shows with a large fanbase to feed from. Once you go PPV it will be very hard to attract new viewers. Also, I don't see how a vocal minority whining about stuff is that serious. It may get to the nerves of the hosts, but other than that it has very little to do with how the show progress and develop. If you get annoyed by some "entitled bitches" on a forum, perhaps you should rather try to contextualize how this new media works. This is how things are gonna be for the (at least) nearest future, get used to it.
yeah, that wasnt a serious suggestion. it was just a long-winded way of saying that the bitching in this thread is by individuals with entitlement issues who wouldnt support the show if SOTG asked for money anyways.
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On June 23 2012 02:34 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective? Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'. Meh.
Day9 was the one that was telling Idra to keep building Infestors and Queens was Zergs were having a hard time lol.
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On June 23 2012 02:34 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective? Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'. Meh.
No thanks.
People who want to hear him theorycraft will listen to his dailys.
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And IdrA was the one saying terrans needed to make ghosts and overlords probably needed a speed boost (not specifically but zerg scouting in general needed help).
At the time day9 said that, infestors were unexplored which is true, but queens weren't as much of an answer as they are since the buff, both good suggestions though.
What was your point again? 
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With HotS beta projected for release sometime this summer is Blizzard even going to care to cater to balance whining at this point? I feel like they're going to have their plate full balancing the shit out of all the new HotS additions. Why would they bother, when the metagame slate of sc2 is about to be wiped clean? If they did change/patch sc2 right now it would take a couple of months for the community to feel the waters to see if the patch is appropriate but by that time no one is going to give a flying fuck because either we'll be playing the HotS beta or HotS itself.
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On June 23 2012 02:50 Khazroul wrote:And IdrA was the one saying terrans needed to make ghosts and overlords probably needed a speed boost (not specifically but zerg scouting in general needed help). At the time day9 said that, infestors were unexplored which is true, but queens weren't as much of an answer as they are since the buff, both good suggestions though. What was your point again?
A really obvious one actually.
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On June 23 2012 02:55 Digitalis wrote:
With HotS beta projected for release sometime this summer is Blizzard even going to care to cater to balance whining at this point? I feel like they're going to have their plate full balancing the shit out of all the new HotS additions. Why would they bother, when the metagame slate of sc2 is about to be wiped clean? If they did change/patch sc2 right now it would take a couple of months for the community to feel the waters to see if the patch is appropriate but by that time no one is going to give a flying fuck because either we'll be playing the HotS beta or HotS itself.
Because we're playing WoL, not HotS.
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On June 23 2012 02:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Pros don't need to volunteer them on Twitter emo-style.
LOL.
Nony. So funny. So handsome.
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On June 23 2012 02:42 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:34 dvorakftw wrote:On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective? Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'. Meh. Day9 was the one that was telling Idra to keep building Infestors and Queens was Zergs were having a hard time lol.
#justafterinfestorswerebuffed
and guess what it took 6month+ to get stephano style going mainstream outside eu, and everytime ppl were saying "idk eu zergs are smashing terrans with infestors but everybody else goes mutas" ud get shat on. only guy in kr to build infestor was life, only in us catz and destiny so ppl used that to say its not good
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On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored.
You are level-headed and honest as usual, Nony. I think people talk about balance sometimes because they just need to vent, at least that's why I do it when I do it. This is a very frustrating game at times and it never gets any easier, unlike other video game, it can never be mastered or dominated.
P.S Please stream more!! 
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On June 23 2012 02:49 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:34 dvorakftw wrote:On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective? Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'. Meh. No thanks. People who want to hear him theorycraft will listen to his dailys.
Day9 is soooo solid at predicting the meta-game though.
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On June 23 2012 03:18 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:42 fraktoasters wrote:On June 23 2012 02:34 dvorakftw wrote:On June 22 2012 22:48 Dosey wrote:
3 P and 1 Z/P Most of which weren't actual representatives of their race because they aren't SC2 pros. Why haven't you been crying for racial balance for the past two years? Why do you suddenly think they HAVE to add a Terran perspective? Day[9] was an acceptable Terran substitute. It's easy to imagine if he had been on the last episode he'd have added at least 3 solid points from a Terran perspective. Instead we got 'they just need to figure things outs' and 'they just need to keep building hellions'. Meh. Day9 was the one that was telling Idra to keep building Infestors and Queens was Zergs were having a hard time lol. #justafterinfestorswerebuffed and guess what it took 6month+ to get stephano style going mainstream outside eu, and everytime ppl were saying "idk eu zergs are smashing terrans with infestors but everybody else goes mutas" ud get shat on. only guy in kr to build infestor was life, only in us catz and destiny so ppl used that to say its not good
Um no it was before.
But the point was that dvorakftw wanted someone to whine for Terran instead of saying something like "they just need to keep building hellions", and I'm saying that if Day9 was on the show he would probably just say "they just need to keep building ravens"
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On June 23 2012 01:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Balance discussions are still so uninteresting and unproductive. The only people who should care about balance work at Blizzard. If Blizzard ever wants external opinions, Blizzard personally asks for them and they are privately communicated. The fans should watch for fun. The players should play to win. The designers should balance for fair and exciting competition.
Players waste their time and energy by publicly commenting on balance. Yes, even the GSL champions who comment on balance should be ignored.
hmm
if anything
PvZ/ZvP
and
TvZ/ZvT
are pretty boring to watch now.
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EPT
