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On March 22 2012 08:29 Koshi wrote:
Blizzard has never disappointed with an expansion. HotS will be so much better.
But shouldn't we just focus on this article and WoL? HotS so far away.
Anyway, I would also love to hear Barrin on SotG. JP make it happen please.
Much as I wish this and what Barrin argued could be the plan to be true, l don't think they are this aware of the community, the scene, and how design decisions such as this impact it. Hell, look at the new WoW expansion, I can't be alone in thinking it was a collective galaxy-wide WTF as that was unveiled. . I think it's more likely they are just learning as they go along, and increasing depth/breadth/complexity is a natural consequence of it. (hopefully)
That said, I really hope Barrin's big idea takes off and continues to get more discussion, incl. on SotG. It just makes sense on so many levels, it's an easy thing for Blizz to be on board with (much easier than UI changes), and it'll make the community happy.
Though that's our job right there, being the more knowledgeable subsection of the sc2 community here on TL, convincing the rest of the community why it's such an amazing idea, so that Blizz's eventual decision to accomodate us all is even easier for them. TB is right.
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JP please have Barrin on for a discussion of this. It sounds interesting.
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I agree that the 6 patch minerals would make for more exciting games, but they really can't change this unless they do it with the HotS expansion. It would completely screw up all the standard strategies that have been developing for 2 years now. And who knows what will be broken by such a severe change. Blizzard is not the sort of company to make drastic changes like this, so I highly doubt we'd ever see this happen.
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I think the work that Barrin is doing is an excellent proof-of-concept that we can change fundamental elements of SC2 for the better and have the community be extremely involved in it.
The specifics of it are very cool and are definitely an encouraging direction of community modding and actively showing Blizzard that they can change SC2 for the betterment of the competitive game. I hope JP picks up on this topic, big exposure on SoTG is what this project needs to really bring it to the next level!
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On March 22 2012 05:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 20:09 Kharnage wrote:On March 21 2012 19:31 Technique wrote:On March 20 2012 08:00 Kharnage wrote:On March 20 2012 02:15 crms wrote:
im late to the party but just started SOTG65, can we for the sake of being anti-ear rape, not have QXC on this show until he has a real mic. Both shows he's been on I'm on the verge of just ragequitting the podcast because the sound rapes the shit out of my ears and brain.
Good show so far otherwise.
edit; stephano so funny, need him on as much as possible. I can't think of a more pointless person to have on SOTG than Stephano. Sure, he was funny for a one off interview, but he said nothing of any interest or solidity about anything. Even his comments on the game were vague and / or lies. Sure, he doesn't know any timings and just randomly chooses what to do on the fly. What utter BS. Cause it's hard for you to understand how an actual good and talented rts mind works doesn't make it ''bs'' or ''lies''. See it as a rap battle, you got an idra who writes everything he's gonna say and it's gonna sound nice and do some damage... he will beat all the lesser competition hard. Now you got a stephano who has some premeditated things of course, but he mainly relies on listening to the opponent and flipping his lines, making them hit a lot harder. Rts is no different, the good players like idra have everything pre planned and make some minor adjustments in game here and there, but that's it. The absolute top like an mkp/stephano etc just go with the flow and are constantly adjusting to the situation and looking for chances (mistakes from the opponent, openings in the opponents game plan). Come off it, he will know scout timings, and build 'tells' for all races so he can react properly. He'll have reactions to everything he scouts thought out and worked out with his practice buddies. Yes, he'll decide what to do 'on the fly' in the same way MC does, but if you honestly believe he just 'goes with the flow' and makes shit up you're being naive. He stated the reason he lost to Polt at Assembly Winter previously was that it wasn't a build he knew how to deal with. Polt did the same thing every game and Stephano didn't have an answer because he hadn't practiced for it at all. So if I understand correctly you play SC2? and because Stephano doesn't agree with how you think and play he is obviously good enough to be on sotg. Cause he might talk about something that you disagree with? Your the 1% in this situation and who honestly likes the 1%. He is popular and a hot topic the boy wins everything he touches for the most part. He is the most successful Foreigner to date. Listen and maybe you will learn something because what he does works.
That's my whole point. He's not talking about what he does at all. He's deflecting the question.
It's pointless having him on the show because he's not interested in helping you understand what he does. Nony tells you things, destiny tells you things, QXC tells you things, stephano says 'oh you know, build stuff'.
When stephano says that he has no trouble with anything in ZvP I don't believe him. I could be wrong, but I find it much more likely that he's not going to tell protoss players out there what he's having trouble with because he doesn't want to lose to protoss players.
He's not interested in helping anyone who is struggling with PvZ, he's not even interested in helping people with ZvP. He's interested in Stephano winning games. Which is fine, that's what he does, but why would I want to hear him regularly not answer questions?
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On March 22 2012 09:38 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On March 21 2012 20:09 Kharnage wrote:On March 21 2012 19:31 Technique wrote:On March 20 2012 08:00 Kharnage wrote:On March 20 2012 02:15 crms wrote:
im late to the party but just started SOTG65, can we for the sake of being anti-ear rape, not have QXC on this show until he has a real mic. Both shows he's been on I'm on the verge of just ragequitting the podcast because the sound rapes the shit out of my ears and brain.
Good show so far otherwise.
edit; stephano so funny, need him on as much as possible. I can't think of a more pointless person to have on SOTG than Stephano. Sure, he was funny for a one off interview, but he said nothing of any interest or solidity about anything. Even his comments on the game were vague and / or lies. Sure, he doesn't know any timings and just randomly chooses what to do on the fly. What utter BS. Cause it's hard for you to understand how an actual good and talented rts mind works doesn't make it ''bs'' or ''lies''. See it as a rap battle, you got an idra who writes everything he's gonna say and it's gonna sound nice and do some damage... he will beat all the lesser competition hard. Now you got a stephano who has some premeditated things of course, but he mainly relies on listening to the opponent and flipping his lines, making them hit a lot harder. Rts is no different, the good players like idra have everything pre planned and make some minor adjustments in game here and there, but that's it. The absolute top like an mkp/stephano etc just go with the flow and are constantly adjusting to the situation and looking for chances (mistakes from the opponent, openings in the opponents game plan). Come off it, he will know scout timings, and build 'tells' for all races so he can react properly. He'll have reactions to everything he scouts thought out and worked out with his practice buddies. Yes, he'll decide what to do 'on the fly' in the same way MC does, but if you honestly believe he just 'goes with the flow' and makes shit up you're being naive. He stated the reason he lost to Polt at Assembly Winter previously was that it wasn't a build he knew how to deal with. Polt did the same thing every game and Stephano didn't have an answer because he hadn't practiced for it at all. So if I understand correctly you play SC2? and because Stephano doesn't agree with how you think and play he is obviously good enough to be on sotg. Cause he might talk about something that you disagree with? Your the 1% in this situation and who honestly likes the 1%. He is popular and a hot topic the boy wins everything he touches for the most part. He is the most successful Foreigner to date. Listen and maybe you will learn something because what he does works. That's my whole point. He's not talking about what he does at all. He's deflecting the question. It's pointless having him on the show because he's not interested in helping you understand what he does. Nony tells you things, destiny tells you things, QXC tells you things, stephano says 'oh you know, build stuff'. When stephano says that he has no trouble with anything in ZvP I don't believe him. I could be wrong, but I find it much more likely that he's not going to tell protoss players out there what he's having trouble with because he doesn't want to lose to protoss players. He's not interested in helping anyone who is struggling with PvZ, he's not even interested in helping people with ZvP. He's interested in Stephano winning games. Which is fine, that's what he does, but why would I want to hear him regularly not answer questions?
I suggest you watch Live on 3 Stephano talks about how when he watches PvZ replays he honestly doesn't know what Protoss can do and that he feels they need to be buffed.
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On March 22 2012 09:41 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:38 Kharnage wrote:On March 22 2012 05:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On March 21 2012 20:09 Kharnage wrote:On March 21 2012 19:31 Technique wrote:On March 20 2012 08:00 Kharnage wrote:On March 20 2012 02:15 crms wrote:
im late to the party but just started SOTG65, can we for the sake of being anti-ear rape, not have QXC on this show until he has a real mic. Both shows he's been on I'm on the verge of just ragequitting the podcast because the sound rapes the shit out of my ears and brain.
Good show so far otherwise.
edit; stephano so funny, need him on as much as possible. I can't think of a more pointless person to have on SOTG than Stephano. Sure, he was funny for a one off interview, but he said nothing of any interest or solidity about anything. Even his comments on the game were vague and / or lies. Sure, he doesn't know any timings and just randomly chooses what to do on the fly. What utter BS. Cause it's hard for you to understand how an actual good and talented rts mind works doesn't make it ''bs'' or ''lies''. See it as a rap battle, you got an idra who writes everything he's gonna say and it's gonna sound nice and do some damage... he will beat all the lesser competition hard. Now you got a stephano who has some premeditated things of course, but he mainly relies on listening to the opponent and flipping his lines, making them hit a lot harder. Rts is no different, the good players like idra have everything pre planned and make some minor adjustments in game here and there, but that's it. The absolute top like an mkp/stephano etc just go with the flow and are constantly adjusting to the situation and looking for chances (mistakes from the opponent, openings in the opponents game plan). Come off it, he will know scout timings, and build 'tells' for all races so he can react properly. He'll have reactions to everything he scouts thought out and worked out with his practice buddies. Yes, he'll decide what to do 'on the fly' in the same way MC does, but if you honestly believe he just 'goes with the flow' and makes shit up you're being naive. He stated the reason he lost to Polt at Assembly Winter previously was that it wasn't a build he knew how to deal with. Polt did the same thing every game and Stephano didn't have an answer because he hadn't practiced for it at all. So if I understand correctly you play SC2? and because Stephano doesn't agree with how you think and play he is obviously good enough to be on sotg. Cause he might talk about something that you disagree with? Your the 1% in this situation and who honestly likes the 1%. He is popular and a hot topic the boy wins everything he touches for the most part. He is the most successful Foreigner to date. Listen and maybe you will learn something because what he does works. That's my whole point. He's not talking about what he does at all. He's deflecting the question. It's pointless having him on the show because he's not interested in helping you understand what he does. Nony tells you things, destiny tells you things, QXC tells you things, stephano says 'oh you know, build stuff'. When stephano says that he has no trouble with anything in ZvP I don't believe him. I could be wrong, but I find it much more likely that he's not going to tell protoss players out there what he's having trouble with because he doesn't want to lose to protoss players. He's not interested in helping anyone who is struggling with PvZ, he's not even interested in helping people with ZvP. He's interested in Stephano winning games. Which is fine, that's what he does, but why would I want to hear him regularly not answer questions? I suggest you watch Live on 3 Stephano talks about how when he watches PvZ replays he honestly doesn't know what Protoss can do and that he feels they need to be buffed.
He said that about zvt before too, then he started playing korean terrans.
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Geeze idk the entire current game balance is based upon a complicated model for the economy. The ROI on blizzard redesigning units and cost structure would have to be too small.
Not to say that I'm not for the change however. I always am for change. Just seems from a business perspective Blizzard would not do such a thing. Maybe if the following becomes big enough they cannot ignore.
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I hope they do discuss Barin's idea at least a little, I think its interesting and popular enough to look into.
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Blizzard Employee: "It's an interesting proposal. ... Does this result in a better spectator experience? Probably the only way to answer that question would be to see if the community as a whole enjoys watching the low econ games on custom maps."
So the question for us: How do we encourage tournaments to try out new map designs to find out whether they make for more interesting experiences?
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On March 22 2012 10:58 JackDT wrote:
Blizzard Employee: "It's an interesting proposal. ... Does this result in a better spectator experience? Probably the only way to answer that question would be to see if the community as a whole enjoys watching the low econ games on custom maps."
So the question for us: How do we encourage tournaments to try out new map designs to find out whether they make for more interesting experiences?
I guess we just need an organization/person with the balls/resources to throw down some serious money (like, $1000+) to make it worth pros' time to play the maps. Maybe someone could throw together a donation system where the community can toss money into the prize pool? I know I'd pay at least $20, and I'm sure there's lots of other people who could spare a couple bucks.
edit: changed some wording
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On March 22 2012 09:45 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:41 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 Kharnage wrote:On March 22 2012 05:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On March 21 2012 20:09 Kharnage wrote:On March 21 2012 19:31 Technique wrote:On March 20 2012 08:00 Kharnage wrote:On March 20 2012 02:15 crms wrote:
im late to the party but just started SOTG65, can we for the sake of being anti-ear rape, not have QXC on this show until he has a real mic. Both shows he's been on I'm on the verge of just ragequitting the podcast because the sound rapes the shit out of my ears and brain.
Good show so far otherwise.
edit; stephano so funny, need him on as much as possible. I can't think of a more pointless person to have on SOTG than Stephano. Sure, he was funny for a one off interview, but he said nothing of any interest or solidity about anything. Even his comments on the game were vague and / or lies. Sure, he doesn't know any timings and just randomly chooses what to do on the fly. What utter BS. Cause it's hard for you to understand how an actual good and talented rts mind works doesn't make it ''bs'' or ''lies''. See it as a rap battle, you got an idra who writes everything he's gonna say and it's gonna sound nice and do some damage... he will beat all the lesser competition hard. Now you got a stephano who has some premeditated things of course, but he mainly relies on listening to the opponent and flipping his lines, making them hit a lot harder. Rts is no different, the good players like idra have everything pre planned and make some minor adjustments in game here and there, but that's it. The absolute top like an mkp/stephano etc just go with the flow and are constantly adjusting to the situation and looking for chances (mistakes from the opponent, openings in the opponents game plan). Come off it, he will know scout timings, and build 'tells' for all races so he can react properly. He'll have reactions to everything he scouts thought out and worked out with his practice buddies. Yes, he'll decide what to do 'on the fly' in the same way MC does, but if you honestly believe he just 'goes with the flow' and makes shit up you're being naive. He stated the reason he lost to Polt at Assembly Winter previously was that it wasn't a build he knew how to deal with. Polt did the same thing every game and Stephano didn't have an answer because he hadn't practiced for it at all. So if I understand correctly you play SC2? and because Stephano doesn't agree with how you think and play he is obviously good enough to be on sotg. Cause he might talk about something that you disagree with? Your the 1% in this situation and who honestly likes the 1%. He is popular and a hot topic the boy wins everything he touches for the most part. He is the most successful Foreigner to date. Listen and maybe you will learn something because what he does works. That's my whole point. He's not talking about what he does at all. He's deflecting the question. It's pointless having him on the show because he's not interested in helping you understand what he does. Nony tells you things, destiny tells you things, QXC tells you things, stephano says 'oh you know, build stuff'. When stephano says that he has no trouble with anything in ZvP I don't believe him. I could be wrong, but I find it much more likely that he's not going to tell protoss players out there what he's having trouble with because he doesn't want to lose to protoss players. He's not interested in helping anyone who is struggling with PvZ, he's not even interested in helping people with ZvP. He's interested in Stephano winning games. Which is fine, that's what he does, but why would I want to hear him regularly not answer questions? I suggest you watch Live on 3 Stephano talks about how when he watches PvZ replays he honestly doesn't know what Protoss can do and that he feels they need to be buffed. He said that about zvt before too, then he started playing korean terrans.
sadly there are no such korean protosses of the same caliber Q.Q basically the difference between korean terrans and foreign terrans is massive while the difference in korean protosses and foreign protosses not as massive and i'm pretty sure stephano has dominated most of the highest level korean protosses at this point...not sure though but i believe that that's the case
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On March 22 2012 08:53 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 08:29 Koshi wrote:
Blizzard has never disappointed with an expansion. HotS will be so much better.
But shouldn't we just focus on this article and WoL? HotS so far away.
Anyway, I would also love to hear Barrin on SotG. JP make it happen please. Hell, look at the new WoW expansion, I can't be alone in thinking it was a collective galaxy-wide WTF as that was unveiled.
I quit the second I heard pretty much. Fuckin pandas, with 0 value to the actual story or consistancy of what WoW was about. WoW had no fucking asian bullshit. I was in a top 10 raid guild, I actually made IRL money off of the game... that expansion killed my passion.
So yes, blizzard does have the potential to disappoint with expansions. Let's hope HOTS goes the opposite way - But I don't think what Barrin is suggesting should/could actually be implemented in WoL. It would force the pros to relearn everything, twice. Now is a time for discussion, experimentation and testing, hopefully some higher level players get involved though because right now all I see is TL forum rats with a few exceptions.. Nobody top tier has really caught wind of it from what I can tell.
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A bit of a spam reply, but I would be very interested in seeing Barrin get a chance to make his case for 6m2g (6 mineral 2 gas) bases to a larger audience.
I've played Devo 6m, and it definitely has an intriguing effect on gameplay. It's hard to describe, but it does capture some of that BW magic. For example, zerglings are much stronger, as the exposed 3rd must be taken with lower army supplies. The timing to maxed-out armies is much slower, and often does not occur at all. A natural point to reach tier 3 is around 120 supply.
So...+1 to Barrin on SOTG.
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When exactly is the next show? I've been out of touch.
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I would also love to hear them discuss Barrin's ideas.
So far my experience from playing and watching these 6m maps is that they really improve SC2 quite a lot.
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While I am interested in addressing the issue of "big army bean bag vs other big army bean bag" go fight! This does not seem like an alternative that appeals to me. Other than the fact that it would make gas units rare as shit and probably require every single non-mineral only unit in the game to have it's cost changed and it's stats altered, it doesn't necessarily even change anything.
the biggest point for me though, is that it seems like a game altering thing that frankly, will fix itself as maps improve and as the game grows (i know, i know, people like to think that the game and players are basically "developed fully or close to it"). This isn't a change that adds breadth to the game; it's one that fundamentally would change the entire design. That's not something to do lightly, and frankly it's way too premature to consider something like it.
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On March 22 2012 09:41 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:38 Kharnage wrote:On March 22 2012 05:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On March 21 2012 20:09 Kharnage wrote:On March 21 2012 19:31 Technique wrote:On March 20 2012 08:00 Kharnage wrote:On March 20 2012 02:15 crms wrote:
im late to the party but just started SOTG65, can we for the sake of being anti-ear rape, not have QXC on this show until he has a real mic. Both shows he's been on I'm on the verge of just ragequitting the podcast because the sound rapes the shit out of my ears and brain.
Good show so far otherwise.
edit; stephano so funny, need him on as much as possible. I can't think of a more pointless person to have on SOTG than Stephano. Sure, he was funny for a one off interview, but he said nothing of any interest or solidity about anything. Even his comments on the game were vague and / or lies. Sure, he doesn't know any timings and just randomly chooses what to do on the fly. What utter BS. Cause it's hard for you to understand how an actual good and talented rts mind works doesn't make it ''bs'' or ''lies''. See it as a rap battle, you got an idra who writes everything he's gonna say and it's gonna sound nice and do some damage... he will beat all the lesser competition hard. Now you got a stephano who has some premeditated things of course, but he mainly relies on listening to the opponent and flipping his lines, making them hit a lot harder. Rts is no different, the good players like idra have everything pre planned and make some minor adjustments in game here and there, but that's it. The absolute top like an mkp/stephano etc just go with the flow and are constantly adjusting to the situation and looking for chances (mistakes from the opponent, openings in the opponents game plan). Come off it, he will know scout timings, and build 'tells' for all races so he can react properly. He'll have reactions to everything he scouts thought out and worked out with his practice buddies. Yes, he'll decide what to do 'on the fly' in the same way MC does, but if you honestly believe he just 'goes with the flow' and makes shit up you're being naive. He stated the reason he lost to Polt at Assembly Winter previously was that it wasn't a build he knew how to deal with. Polt did the same thing every game and Stephano didn't have an answer because he hadn't practiced for it at all. So if I understand correctly you play SC2? and because Stephano doesn't agree with how you think and play he is obviously good enough to be on sotg. Cause he might talk about something that you disagree with? Your the 1% in this situation and who honestly likes the 1%. He is popular and a hot topic the boy wins everything he touches for the most part. He is the most successful Foreigner to date. Listen and maybe you will learn something because what he does works. That's my whole point. He's not talking about what he does at all. He's deflecting the question. It's pointless having him on the show because he's not interested in helping you understand what he does. Nony tells you things, destiny tells you things, QXC tells you things, stephano says 'oh you know, build stuff'. When stephano says that he has no trouble with anything in ZvP I don't believe him. I could be wrong, but I find it much more likely that he's not going to tell protoss players out there what he's having trouble with because he doesn't want to lose to protoss players. He's not interested in helping anyone who is struggling with PvZ, he's not even interested in helping people with ZvP. He's interested in Stephano winning games. Which is fine, that's what he does, but why would I want to hear him regularly not answer questions? I suggest you watch Live on 3 Stephano talks about how when he watches PvZ replays he honestly doesn't know what Protoss can do and that he feels they need to be buffed.
Got link? Happy to watch it.
My statements are all based on his interview on SOTG where he said nothing of value. He said nothing about the current 'state of the game' or any matches or tournaments that was worthwhile.
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On March 22 2012 11:47 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 08:53 caradoc wrote:On March 22 2012 08:29 Koshi wrote:
Blizzard has never disappointed with an expansion. HotS will be so much better.
But shouldn't we just focus on this article and WoL? HotS so far away.
Anyway, I would also love to hear Barrin on SotG. JP make it happen please. Hell, look at the new WoW expansion, I can't be alone in thinking it was a collective galaxy-wide WTF as that was unveiled. I quit the second I heard pretty much. Fuckin pandas, with 0 value to the actual story or consistancy of what WoW was about. WoW had no fucking asian bullshit. I was in a top 10 raid guild, I actually made IRL money off of the game... that expansion killed my passion. So yes, blizzard does have the potential to disappoint with expansions. Let's hope HOTS goes the opposite way - But I don't think what Barrin is suggesting should/could actually be implemented in WoL. It would force the pros to relearn everything, twice. Now is a time for discussion, experimentation and testing, hopefully some higher level players get involved though because right now all I see is TL forum rats with a few exceptions.. Nobody top tier has really caught wind of it from what I can tell.
WoW had a story? Did you even play wc3? I loved the shit out of wc3 lore, and what blizzard did to the warcraft universe with wow made me want to smash my head into the wall until my brain leaked out onto my feet. They just made up random shit and created loopholes in their own lore for content purposes and killed off every damn interesting person in the lore. Draenei for example, they aren't blue, they aren't even damn goats and they especially didn't crash land a spaceship on azeroth.
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EPT
