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On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs?
I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream "retarded" 50 times, saying nothing of real substance.
I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis.
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I recently just started to listen to this. Love it!
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On September 14 2011 21:02 MrBitter wrote:
Lucifron is incredible.
So is Kas, Strelok, Sjow, and Tarson.
Stephano, Nerchio, Ret, and Dimaga
Mana, Nightend, Hasu, and Socke
European scene is incredibly deep, and it makes me sad that SotG doesn't show it more love.
Would love to volunteer myself (or more appropriately, Rotterdam) to come drop some truth bombs.
I know you read these posts, JP. Show EU some love, bro!
Well said MR B, I back this 100%
BTW, I think that you're doing a great job at ESL and your fast becoming a top caster
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On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis.
Haha, as if most of the "facts" that are presented on BBC or NPR are universally approved.
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On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis.
Maybe that because SotG isn't well suited for it because the 3 "pros" are all protoss and D9 is not interested in balance talk. I really don't know how you want to approach balance with a indepth, meaty fact-based analysis when there's very little hard fact present. The pillars have said time and again that the metagame is constantly shifting which in turn makes it very hard to determine if something is imbalanced or just not "solved" yet.
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On September 14 2011 21:46 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis. Haha, as if most of the "facts" that are presented on BBC or NPR are universally approved.
Just because perfect objectivity is impossible doesn't mean that we should all settle for screaming matches, obvious bias, and fluff. Some sources of content are higher-quality than others; that goes for both the real-world news and for SC2-related shows.
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JP should invite MrBitter sometime as a quest to talk about the EU scene. He might even bring Rotti with him (on second thought one more protoss biass in the show will make a world explode). JP would have to do a lot of moderating work in that episode cause i think the players would like to defend their scene. It could be the best SOTG ever.
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I'd like to add another thing about the whole EU/NA thing here. Pro-gaming on EU is already self-sustained. There are real pro-gamer in EU since years, even if Starcraft 2 allowed better living conditions and everything, other games already have done it for broadcasters and sponsors ( War3, Quake3, QL, etc. ). The expension of MLG, the creation of NASL and IPL is very recent and even if the "market" is thriving right now, it's still very fragile. By talking more about it, than the already stable EU e-sport market, J-P might try to make it more stable for the year to come.
As I said, SOTG is entertaining as it is right now, but when Mana make it to the finals of Assembly followed soon after by the semi-finals at the IEM Cologne, SOTG people didn't even mention it. The guy outplayed Puma in groups stages (even if Puma wasn't trying, it's a feat), only got defeated by MC superior Micro and confidence in a one-sided PvP semi-finals. SOTG haven't even mention the epic Dimaga Vs. Mana first match of the Assembly finals, yes, the 50 minutes game on Metalopolis, with the epic come-back and the carriers and everything. I was so sad the day Artosis brang it up and was shut down by inControl trolling about EU  . Not to mention Mana easily deals with the GM 1/1/1 on EU ladder everytime on his stream...
On September 14 2011 21:56 Frankon wrote:
JP should invite MrBitter sometime as a quest to talk about the EU scene. He might even bring Rotti with him (on second thought one more protoss biass in the show will make a world explode). JP would have to do a lot of moderating work in that episode cause i think the players would like to defend their scene. It could be the best SOTG ever.
Artosis plays protoss is zerg-biased and has a terran heart... It's harsh to call him toss.
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Just to add something more.
The guys on SOTG that actually play seem (or do) know the EU scene (JP is another story)... BUT they don't cover small events on SOTG at all and the focus is obviously on NA/GSL... Just because they don't talk in length over any very good, but not very accomplished player, European does not mean their ignorant?
I mean, you see it in this tread a (big) part of the NA audience has no clue about the EU scene and it's "minor" players, just dropping 10-20 different names around every week wouldn't do much good either, it probably would just alienate many of the listeners.
To make it brief: A guy like Minigun or Axslav (probably!) would never have made waves on EU... Or how much do you hear about Bischu except from him getting coinflipped out of dreamhack (due to playing endless ties with Socke and a Korean) and having some Teamleague appearances?
Oh, NOT talking about Assembly / IEM was really bad tho...
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Don't know why we need representatives for every "minority" in SotG. People cry because there are not enough Zergs, Terrans, Europeans on SotG. This is not the parliament of Nerdonia but a podcast for SC2 players speaking their minds. Having to care for everyone will make the discussion more formal and boring, as noone dares to say anything.
We don't need some charity show for Europeans. The fact that Artosis is stuck in Beta-mode for some Europeans is more funny than discriminating. If it weren't for MLG Artosis probably would call Naniwa a terrible one-base player  Btw, Demuslim did a pretty decent job last week for both Terrans and Europeans. Not because he is Terran and European but because he is a great player that can speak up.
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart. We have lots of interesting "minor" tournaments that have no place in SotG. I for one would welcome a show with e.g 2GD, TLO, Grubby, ToD, MrBitter, Rotterdam, + at least 10 others.... (sure, we Germans have our cast at sc2pro.de, but that excludes all non-german speakers).
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My mind is seriously being blown here. Did I miss the bit where Lucifron got called a 1 baser? Didn't Artosis say he was looking forward to seeing how he plays? Didn't Inc say he was tearing through EU zergs?
Did I miss something?
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On September 14 2011 22:00 SinCitta wrote:
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart.
There was one. Sadly it died quicly. Martjin, Maven and Pholon had a weekly show (which started with a showmatch)
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On September 14 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis. Maybe that because SotG isn't well suited for it because the 3 "pros" are all protoss and D9 is not interested in balance talk. I really don't know how you want to approach balance with a indepth, meaty fact-based analysis when there's very little hard fact present. The pillars have said time and again that the metagame is constantly shifting which in turn makes it very hard to determine if something is imbalanced or just not "solved" yet.
I don't know what the point of your post is. Just to say "It doesn't exist because it doesn't exist"? "There can never be a show that analyzes the metagame because it constantly shifts"? What are you trying to say? Obviously pros analyze the metagame themselves to try and determine how to succeed in games; it's not some impossible task. Obviously within Blizzard they have a team of guys that makes decision about game balance based on facts about the game. You think that this is some kind of intellectual ability that only Blizzard employees possess?
Obviously I realize that SotG doesn't do this right now; that's my complaint at the root of the quote-chain...I wish they'd improve in this regard because most of what they talked about this time seemed irrelevant to me and there aren't many other alternatives. But a new show along those lines would be great too.
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On September 14 2011 22:04 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis. Maybe that because SotG isn't well suited for it because the 3 "pros" are all protoss and D9 is not interested in balance talk. I really don't know how you want to approach balance with a indepth, meaty fact-based analysis when there's very little hard fact present. The pillars have said time and again that the metagame is constantly shifting which in turn makes it very hard to determine if something is imbalanced or just not "solved" yet. I don't know what the point of your post is. Just to say "It doesn't exist because it doesn't exist"? "There can never be a show that analyzes the metagame because it constantly shifts"? What are you trying to say? Obviously pros analyze the metagame themselves to try and determine how to succeed in games; it's not some impossible task. Obviously within Blizzard they have a team of guys that makes decision about game balance based on facts about the game. You think that this is some kind of intellectual ability that only Blizzard employees possess?
What i mean is that SotG isn't what you're looking for, so why complain? I'm saying it's hard to provide what you want as SC2 has very little to do with "hard facts", how do you determine what is OP what is balanced and what is determined by pure player skill? How do you incorporate this into a show when the metagame changes constantly and something that's popular one month is solved the other? It doesn't fit SotG especially as they don't have all races available AND even if they did different pro players of the same race don't necessarily agree on what is UP/OP/balanced...
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Germany1632 Posts
On September 14 2011 22:01 The KY wrote:
My mind is seriously being blown here. Did I miss the bit where Lucifron got called a 1 baser? Didn't Artosis say he was looking forward to seeing how he plays? Didn't Inc say he was tearing through EU zergs?
Did I miss something?
Yes, you did miss something.
Artosis said he was looking forward to seeing him play because he was curious with what kind of strange (=cheesy) start he will try to kill DRG. And yeah, he referenced Luci's one base play in beta and was assuming he didn't change it.
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG
I can't remember everything they said word by word, but you might wanna rewatch the VOD.
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On September 14 2011 22:10 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:04 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis. Maybe that because SotG isn't well suited for it because the 3 "pros" are all protoss and D9 is not interested in balance talk. I really don't know how you want to approach balance with a indepth, meaty fact-based analysis when there's very little hard fact present. The pillars have said time and again that the metagame is constantly shifting which in turn makes it very hard to determine if something is imbalanced or just not "solved" yet. I don't know what the point of your post is. Just to say "It doesn't exist because it doesn't exist"? "There can never be a show that analyzes the metagame because it constantly shifts"? What are you trying to say? Obviously pros analyze the metagame themselves to try and determine how to succeed in games; it's not some impossible task. Obviously within Blizzard they have a team of guys that makes decision about game balance based on facts about the game. You think that this is some kind of intellectual ability that only Blizzard employees possess? What i mean is that SotG isn't what you're looking for, so why complain? I'm saying it's hard to provide what you want as SC2 has very little to do with "hard facts", how do you determine what is OP what is balanced and what is determined by pure player skill? How do you incorporate this into a show when the metagame changes constantly and something that's popular one month is solved the other? It doesn't fit SotG especially as they don't have all races available AND even if they did different pro players of the same race don't necessarily agree on what is UP/OP/balanced...
Nice, you just summed up why it would be an interesting show.
However you seem to be under the impression that just because SotG is one thing today that it can't be something more tomorrow. Give people some credit; everything is capable of improving over time. Have some vision.
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On September 14 2011 21:34 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:15 ronpaul012 wrote:On September 14 2011 21:10 MrBitter wrote:On September 14 2011 21:06 ronpaul012 wrote:On September 14 2011 20:27 Ragoo wrote:
Some EU rage:
I totally understand that you can't watch the small tournaments on EU and follow the scene really well.
But can't you find any person who is really knowledgeable about the EU scene? He doesn't need to be on the show with you, but he could give you at least some information on how to rank the EU players or latest results or something.
Like srsly, when you were talking about Lucifron you acted like he's one basing all the time (cause you only know him from beta when -everyone- was one basing all the time) and he's probably just bad. Everything you said about Lucifron was basically wrong and made up by you and imo you didn't even make clear that you just don't have a clue.
Lucifron is active again, he's top 10 grandmaster EU with a 389-120 record and lately he beat Mana 2-0, Stephano 2-0 and Nerchio 3-0 in a very very convincing non-cheesy fashion. Actually it looked like MMA or some other top level Korean macroing and multitasking all over the place and it was one of the most impressive Terran performances I have ever seen from an EU player.
Please note that your constant ignorance and misinformation about EU players is actually hurting the EU scene and players, cause despite the fact that there are many more good players on EU than on NA, you constantly ignore most of them and instead overhype worse NA players. Wait, your mad because all the pro's from America don't know your minor EU players. Oh, your totally right, why wouldn't the pros waste their time studying players they've never played before. How Ignorant of them! Why you no waste more time??? This is the kind of silly stuff that people need to be more informed on. Those "minor" EU players are, in all honesty, vastly superior to most, not all, well known North American pros. I would really love to see a Europe vs. North America showmatch series. I think it would really open some eyes. LOL get out of here troll. There not vastly superior, or they'd actually be playing in bigger tournaments. There the hipsters of Starcraft. You know, I like this player, but you've probably never heard of him. Then 1 out of 10 europeans you claim to be great will be. Then your all like, "I was watching him before he got 9th at MLG." Note, I'm not saying Europeans suck. I'd go as far to say the best Europeans are probably overall better than the top Americans. However to say these minor players who don't compete in major tournaments and have like 2 good results in small ones are not as good. This is the fucking funniest post I've read in fucking ages. Can't believe MrBitter just got called a troll rofl. amazing.
Took the words right out of my mouth asha!
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To those dissing EU players: how many NA players actually travel to EU LANs compared to the number of EU players who attend NA LANs?
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On September 14 2011 22:04 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:00 SinCitta wrote:
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart. There was one. Sadly it died quicly. Martjin, Maven and Pholon had a weekly show (which started with a showmatch)
I think ESL should/could do something like that.
Rotterdamm/Mr.Bitter are very good players/hosts... They know tons of players... I'm sure it would be good. Cloud would be awesome :D.
But well, the languge is a problem and thats why we don't see something like this.
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aside from somehow offending the eu scene again with what was probably a harmless remark, was the show good last night?
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EPT
