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On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:01 The KY wrote:
My mind is seriously being blown here. Did I miss the bit where Lucifron got called a 1 baser? Didn't Artosis say he was looking forward to seeing how he plays? Didn't Inc say he was tearing through EU zergs?
Did I miss something? Yes, you did miss something.  Artosis said he was looking forward to seeing him play because he was curious with what kind of strange (=cheesy) start he will try to kill DRG. And yeah, he referenced Luci's one base play in beta and was assuming he didn't change it. The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG I can't remember everything they said word by word, but you might wanna rewatch the VOD.
To be faire with Tyler and SOTG about that, they consider DRG as an absolute unbeatable beast, and in terms of achievement as much as skills Lucifron is definitely the underdog here. I hope the koreans going to Dreamhack will not underestimate their opponents, 'cause the tournament is really stacked and with single brackets. So we might have a one sided finals, which is the doom of most of the single elim tournaments.
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On September 14 2011 22:20 FrankWalls wrote:
aside from somehow offending the eu scene again with what was probably a harmless remark, was the show good last night?
a bit short.
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On September 14 2011 22:04 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:00 SinCitta wrote:
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart. There was one. Sadly it died quicly. Martjin, Maven and Pholon had a weekly show (which started with a showmatch)
I think the issue is the hosts. If Rotterdam + whoever from HasuObs/Socke/Naniwa/Thorzain/Mana/TLO/White-ra  /Tarson/Cloud/Morrow.. did the show and the chemistry would be there a lot of people would have watched I would guess.
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On September 14 2011 22:19 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:04 Frankon wrote:On September 14 2011 22:00 SinCitta wrote:
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart. There was one. Sadly it died quicly. Martjin, Maven and Pholon had a weekly show (which started with a showmatch) I think ESL should/could do something like that. Rotterdamm/Mr.Bitter are very good players/hosts... They know tons of players... I'm sure it would be good. Cloud would be awesome :D. But well, the languge is a problem and thats why we don't see something like this.
Rotterdam, Cloud, Darkforce would be a good start, all known for hating on the NA scene constantly, would make a fun show :D j/k
Well I'd really love to see Rotterdam on Sotg, he knows the EU scene perfectly, is a good player himself, is a commentator and thus knows how to articulate his thoughts and is stubborn about his opinion.
Only downside is ofc the timezone problem and that he's yet another protoss 
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8748 Posts
On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG
lol
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On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:01 The KY wrote:
My mind is seriously being blown here. Did I miss the bit where Lucifron got called a 1 baser? Didn't Artosis say he was looking forward to seeing how he plays? Didn't Inc say he was tearing through EU zergs?
Did I miss something? Yes, you did miss something. Artosis said he was looking forward to seeing him play because he was curious with what kind of strange (=cheesy) start he will try to kill DRG. And yeah, he referenced Luci's one base play in beta and was assuming he didn't change it. The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG I can't remember everything they said word by word, but you might wanna rewatch the VOD.
Iirc, Tyler came on and made a joke about whether they even had to consider who would win between Lucifron v DRG. Then after they laughed he clarified and said that he hadn't seen Lucifron play really well but this could very well be the big coming out of a really good player.
I'm completely failing to see the issue with the statement. Do people want the SOTG hosts to watch every VOD of every player so they know exactly how good everyone is doing? I don't know if people realise, but as players they don't have the same kind of time as we do for watching SC2. Their job is to know more about the game than the collective viewership, but it's literally impossible to know more about the scene from the perspective of a viewer. There's five of them and thousands of us, they can't know more than we do from watching starcraft.
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On September 14 2011 22:20 FrankWalls wrote:
aside from somehow offending the eu scene again with what was probably a harmless remark, was the show good last night?
It was okay, a bit short, not that much substance, Tyler only came in halfway through and Artosis and Day[9] had to leave early, so it felt a bit hurried, also because JP tried to shut down most of the off-topic rambling attempts quickly, but it was still fun.
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On September 14 2011 22:12 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:10 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 22:04 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis. Maybe that because SotG isn't well suited for it because the 3 "pros" are all protoss and D9 is not interested in balance talk. I really don't know how you want to approach balance with a indepth, meaty fact-based analysis when there's very little hard fact present. The pillars have said time and again that the metagame is constantly shifting which in turn makes it very hard to determine if something is imbalanced or just not "solved" yet. I don't know what the point of your post is. Just to say "It doesn't exist because it doesn't exist"? "There can never be a show that analyzes the metagame because it constantly shifts"? What are you trying to say? Obviously pros analyze the metagame themselves to try and determine how to succeed in games; it's not some impossible task. Obviously within Blizzard they have a team of guys that makes decision about game balance based on facts about the game. You think that this is some kind of intellectual ability that only Blizzard employees possess? What i mean is that SotG isn't what you're looking for, so why complain? I'm saying it's hard to provide what you want as SC2 has very little to do with "hard facts", how do you determine what is OP what is balanced and what is determined by pure player skill? How do you incorporate this into a show when the metagame changes constantly and something that's popular one month is solved the other? It doesn't fit SotG especially as they don't have all races available AND even if they did different pro players of the same race don't necessarily agree on what is UP/OP/balanced... Nice, you just summed up why it would be an interesting show. However you seem to be under the impression that just because SotG is one thing today that it can't be something more tomorrow. Give people some credit; everything is capable of improving over time. Have some vision.
Plenty of people like SotG as it is and would completely disagree with you on what makes an interesting show. Just because you don't like SotG as it is doesn't mean everyone else does as well. I personally would dislike it if it became what you want it to be, that's not the type of show I'm looking for when I watch SotG. If you want that type of show maybe you should go and try and organize one and get it started instead of trying to change a well established show that tons of people love as it is to fit your idea of what a good show would be.
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Everyone seems to take everything that's said as a personal attack. I'd hate to be a face in this scene, expressing an opinion seems to have you demonised.
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On September 14 2011 22:12 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:10 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 22:04 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 21:44 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 21:12 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 19:56 galivet wrote:On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:On September 14 2011 18:57 galivet wrote:
It seems that in this show they're afraid to take a side or get into a controversial discussion that might put them at odds with Blizzard's "party line" -- basically discussing game balance in depth at at length is just taboo.
I guess you can't blame them; they're in a kind of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation. Pros and commentators have to pretend that the game is reasonably well balanced no matter what, because once most fans perceive the game as imbalanced then they'll lose interest in the competitive scene that writes all the paychecks of pro players and commentators.
Right now many SC2 fans perceive that the game is probably significantly imbalanced, but most respect the opinions of the real experts on that matter. As long as Day9 and the cooler-headed pros don't say that the game is imbalanced then it gets the benefit of the doubt. The massive numbers of protoss fans will still pay to watch TvP in the GSL because hey, maybe it really is a fair competition after all and the best man will win. Hope springs eternal.
However, if there was a SotG that heavily discussed game balance and made a convincing case that the game is broken, then people will lose interest in the pro tournaments that write paychecks to these guys. It's just like the steroids controversies in the Tour de France -- no one wants to watch if the whole competition just comes down to who has the best doctor with the newest black-market steroids. If playing the terran race is shown to be SC2's version of steroids, then it's bad for e-sports. Imagine if every pro who cares to make money started race-switching so that every tournament was even more full of TvT than it is now -- the entertainment value of tournament play will start to rapidly evaporate.
So ya, don't expect the folks who run this show to shoot themselves in the foot by taking any strong position on game balance. Their job is to entertain, get paid, and stay famous; thinking about game balance is Blizzard's job. All the people involved with SotG know that as soon as they start discussing game balance indepth it will spawn 200+ pages in this thread and multiple standalone threads where people pick and choose information to use for their race's benefit, ultimately resulting in shitposting and nonconstructive complaining. Why would anyone involved in SotG care about the quality of posting on this forum to the extent that it's the dominant factor in deciding whether or not they discuss game balance? I don't think they really care if what they say on their show makes people write posts on TL or any other forum. On September 14 2011 19:41 karpo wrote:
If you look at the win charts the game isn't unbalanced. It might need some tweaks but i'm pretty sure most pros agree that it's not far from decently balanced. Okay, thanks for your personal interpretation of some charts and your personal assumption about what pros believe, but to be honest I don't really give a damn what you or any other regular nameless faceless nobody forum-poster has to say about game balance. If I wanted a bunch of anonymous opinions from individuals of negligible skill and importance then I would read the designated balance whine trash bin. I want the pros and the commentators -- the real SC2 experts -- to speak up and make some firm conclusions on the record. I don't want to guess at what they think about the issues that actually matter while they waste electrons talking about how they don't enjoy watching all-star matches or whatever. Calm down dude, you sound upset. If you watched SotG regularly you'd know they do consider how people react to what they say, and balance brings out the worst in everyone. I can remember them saying that the game is close to balanced on several occasions. Maybe they realize that they will have a huge bias as they know matchups in and out but only from one perspective, as Tyler isn't keen on commenting at all on anything not Protoss related. Balance is for Blizzard to fix if they see fit, just cause you want pros to start talking about balance doesn't mean they feel the need or even want to. Isn't Inside the Game more about this anyway, as they have a terran, protoss and zerg on the show. And they take viewer questions about balance and such. Why don't you watch that for your balance needs? I don't like Inside the Game because of the hosts. I want to hear cool-headed experts discuss balance in an empirical manner, not listen to Idra scream retard 50 times, saying nothing of real substance. I feel like a guy who wants to listen to listen to NPR or watch BBC News in a world that only has Fox News and the E! network. There's only opinion, fluff, and biased agendas; no in-depth, meaty, fact-based analysis. Maybe that because SotG isn't well suited for it because the 3 "pros" are all protoss and D9 is not interested in balance talk. I really don't know how you want to approach balance with a indepth, meaty fact-based analysis when there's very little hard fact present. The pillars have said time and again that the metagame is constantly shifting which in turn makes it very hard to determine if something is imbalanced or just not "solved" yet. I don't know what the point of your post is. Just to say "It doesn't exist because it doesn't exist"? "There can never be a show that analyzes the metagame because it constantly shifts"? What are you trying to say? Obviously pros analyze the metagame themselves to try and determine how to succeed in games; it's not some impossible task. Obviously within Blizzard they have a team of guys that makes decision about game balance based on facts about the game. You think that this is some kind of intellectual ability that only Blizzard employees possess? What i mean is that SotG isn't what you're looking for, so why complain? I'm saying it's hard to provide what you want as SC2 has very little to do with "hard facts", how do you determine what is OP what is balanced and what is determined by pure player skill? How do you incorporate this into a show when the metagame changes constantly and something that's popular one month is solved the other? It doesn't fit SotG especially as they don't have all races available AND even if they did different pro players of the same race don't necessarily agree on what is UP/OP/balanced... Nice, you just summed up why it would be an interesting show. However you seem to be under the impression that just because SotG is one thing today that it can't be something more tomorrow. Give people some credit; everything is capable of improving over time. Have some vision.
It's not about vision. It's that i don't want SotG to do that. I'm not interested and i foresee a increase in whining and balance shittalking to come from it. Not everyone want what you want.
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wow im listening to the sotg and you are mentioning sYs from Dune. I used to know him. We were playing often in the same pc bang called Dune and also attended the same high school. Oh memories...
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On September 14 2011 22:28 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG lol
Are you loling about the fact that i make such a big deal about an incidental comment that maybe wasn't to be taken seriously or over my statement that Lucifron would roflstomp you?
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On September 14 2011 22:26 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:04 Frankon wrote:On September 14 2011 22:00 SinCitta wrote:
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart. There was one. Sadly it died quicly. Martjin, Maven and Pholon had a weekly show (which started with a showmatch) I think the issue is the hosts. If Rotterdam + whoever from HasuObs/Socke/Naniwa/Thorzain/Mana/TLO/White-ra /Tarson/Cloud/Morrow.. did the show and the chemistry would be there a lot of people would have watched I would guess.
well, we have something kinda similar going (last episode here http://www.sc2pro.de/?p=918), but its only in german D:
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SoCal8907 Posts
On September 14 2011 22:39 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:28 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG lol Are you loling about the fact that i make such a big deal about an incidental comment that maybe wasn't to be taken seriously or over my statement that Lucifron would roflstomp you?
probably the fact that you're defending lucifron who was only good at all-in'ing.
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On September 14 2011 22:39 Socke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:26 mcc wrote:On September 14 2011 22:04 Frankon wrote:On September 14 2011 22:00 SinCitta wrote:
As Europeans, we should more ask ourselves why there isn't a European-centric counterpart. There was one. Sadly it died quicly. Martjin, Maven and Pholon had a weekly show (which started with a showmatch) I think the issue is the hosts. If Rotterdam + whoever from HasuObs/Socke/Naniwa/Thorzain/Mana/TLO/White-ra /Tarson/Cloud/Morrow.. did the show and the chemistry would be there a lot of people would have watched I would guess. well, we have something kinda similar going (last episode here http://www.sc2pro.de/?p=918), but its only in german D:
If you're a host there, I'm so sad I don't speak german right now :'( :'(
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On September 14 2011 22:39 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:28 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG lol Are you loling about the fact that i make such a big deal about an incidental comment that maybe wasn't to be taken seriously or over my statement that Lucifron would roflstomp you?
he's lolling about the fact that you are utterly stupid.
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Rotterdam would definitely have some funny stories to share on SOTG :D
I'd also be okay with MrBitter (yeah, the aforementioned troll) on the show. He knows the european scene quite well.
Even if Lucifron is playing beastly right now I don't mind the pillars of SOTG not knowing too much about him. He hasn't played in major tournaments and took a break from serious gaming for a while.
I do think they should be careful about disrespecting someone they dont know though. They simply don't know how good he is right now so there should be no reason to comment in a negative way. You should criticize only what you know.
Btw referencing the beta is just silly... Thats more than a freakin year ago. Everyone was bad back then. Naniwa didn't stop 4-gating everything and everyone until half a year past release...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On September 14 2011 22:39 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:28 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG lol Are you loling about the fact that i make such a big deal about an incidental comment that maybe wasn't to be taken seriously or over my statement that Lucifron would roflstomp you?
no,hes just laughing at you.
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On September 14 2011 22:39 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:28 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 14 2011 22:11 JayJay_90 wrote:
The worst part imo was when Tyler came on though. I didn't know if i should rage or lol about the way he talked about a player, who is way ahead of him skillwise. (if i recall it correctly he called him a "not fully developed sc2 player" and even asked, if he's even supposed to talk about the matchup Luci - DRG lol Are you loling about the fact that i make such a big deal about an incidental comment that maybe wasn't to be taken seriously or over my statement that Lucifron would roflstomp you?
well you were wondering if you should rage or lol, and he said lol, so you should lol.
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EPT
