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Melancholia
United States717 Posts
On August 17 2010 19:28 Rokit5 wrote: You think we need to wait 8-10 years before the expansions? Wtf?! Get real please. He was joking  Hell, even Blizzard has some fun at their own expense about how they delay everything. | ||
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triumph
United States100 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:43 Alpina wrote: Yeah creep mechanic is very cool but it should be a bonus, not a necessity. Looks like they just lowered speed of all zerg units and then added creep speed bonus so they can move normal. It should be a necessity but the units shouldn't be underpowered. Problem is it feels like mechanic for the sake of clicking instead of creep being a strategy for the sake of additional strategic depth with tie ins to what your army is composed of >_< insert bishing here. But going back to the world of what can be done if creep feels up. We have the tumor which takes some time to spread and we have the overlord which can't spread or scout effectively until T2. To power up creep expansion and that big scouting is random issue everyone has the ovie upgrade could be moved to t1/1.5ish to help creep spread. Ovie positioning towards a flank or good angle early on may become more important as well as ovie hunting for the enemy. | ||
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Windwalker
Turkey18 Posts
I play terran since the BW, and now I am really disturbed with this so called imbalance issues of the race. Especially when I read several zerg-casts that aproach the situation from several different angles. Either the unit design is flawed, or the queen mehcanics, or the creep mechanic, or other races (especially terran) is too strong etc. While I really feel the difference of terran when compared to BW, as it feels very easy to play, I am not yet convinced of a total imbalance. Those of you who are "old" enough may remember similar complaints from terran players in BW. While "other" races just could produce units like dragoons and hydralisks, which could be used to form basic bubble for your army that can do everything (ranged attack, durable (compared to terran) able to shoot ground and air) when supported just by one other kind of unit. (generally detectors.) On the other hand, terran, to be competitive, had to have a higher apm. Just marines were never enough, and when you added siege tanks you had to support them with anti air, and even then you had to siege/unsiege along the way. I feel the situation is similar at the moment. I am thinking on swithcing to zerg just for the sake of it - this was why I had chosen the terran over other races in BW. I was a failure in this manner, though, as you basically had to: vulture mines, siege unsiege, stim pack (requires medics - psi storm, reavers, lurkers just kill you outright if you dont extravaganza micro) Basically, at low level terran seemed to be in disadvantage. On the other hand, when you went up the ladder and watched high level players, you could see terran was dominating when it could pull off all the micro and macro together. I really hope this is going to be to true for the zerg in sc2. And overall, in my opinion zerg is more... zergish at the moment. Creep mechanics is a part of this feeling. I believe there are some underused options at zerg disposal at the moment. banelings nydus worms infestors spine crawlers. (yes I am serious) Almost in all games, even in high-level plays, I notice zerg have an excess mineral resource. I believe this can be used as terrain-denial, either by spew and crawler, or by extra hatcheries, especially in mineral fields where your opponen has to expand. (I believe zerglings and roaches are still fast enough for a contain, once you break your containment. Zerg should do everything to prevent the third expo of opponent.) Anyway, I have talked alot for someone who hasn't yet played zerg extensively, but these are the first feelings from the "other" perspective. Terran, broken or not, is very easy to play. Formula is so easy that it takes mid-level players to new heights. Wall of, produce barracks units, add some medivacs, a+ move. 100 hp ghost? 125 hp marauder? these are like jokes, even for terran. And thors... like a child's dream. | ||
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pechkin
158 Posts
And yea, its annoying to need to make all this things every game and then they just roflmovekill with some detector and kill all your fuckn art, and you have to do it again and again, but anyway i find it pretty fair, since we also have overlords drop creep wherever we want and tumors give us the sight of those areas, so if you need creep for fight - bring overlords, spread them all the way to the fight place so you get fast reinforcement etc. | ||
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explicit
52 Posts
Other issues like sunken productiontime would be offset by early creepspread, and new tactics would involve ovies spreading creep on mineral lines/the enemies quickest route to an expansion if you feel like flanking them. Or even behind the enemy in a confrontation to hamper their retreat, making ovies more of an active unit. I like this idea alot, and if the zerg is proactive about spreading creep it would allow easier flanking in the later stages of the game - by having the enemy forces take longer to produce a concave/defensive line when fighting on creep or fall back to a choke. It would really solve alot of issues | ||
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
As far as the creep highway thing goes, I think it's a good practise to start out with creep tumors and as midgame comes along, let the overlords help out by spreading the creep more. By the time you have a lair, you should be having enough OLs to reach to other side of the map.. just make sure your OL positioning early game accounts for the future creep highway.. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
that way i won't have to waste apm on a queen when the enemy decides to enter my creep | ||
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DarkSeerTurbo
United States105 Posts
On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote: As a Toss player, I have to agree with the OP. The biggest one that stands out is the Hydra. Hydras are laughably slow off of creep... it seems that their creep speed ought to be about their base speed, and their current off-creep speed should be the result of massive genetic failures resulting in a new unit called the Gimpalisk. Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it. man you said it perfectly. Gimpalisk lol. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
It only adds constraints to zergs. | ||
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
Basically that sums it all up. Apart from Hydralisks I feel most of the Zerg army moves at a decent pace, of course some improvements would be nice (hey, who doesn't want hit units to move even faster?) but meh, I can't really see why this would be an issue. | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote: As a Toss player, I have to agree with the OP. The biggest one that stands out is the Hydra. Hydras are laughably slow off of creep... it seems that their creep speed ought to be about their base speed, and their current off-creep speed should be the result of massive genetic failures resulting in a new unit called the Gimpalisk. Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it. QFE. Creep should be a bonus in defending, and expanding, not a necessity to attack the enemy. Let's face it, any capable terran/toss player will destroy the tumors that are getting close to his base. Dear friends; I play terran since the BW, and now I am really disturbed with this so called imbalance issues of the race. Especially when I read several zerg-casts that aproach the situation from several different angles. Either the unit design is flawed, or the queen mehcanics, or the creep mechanic, or other races (especially terran) is too strong etc. While I really feel the difference of terran when compared to BW, as it feels very easy to play, I am not yet convinced of a total imbalance. Those of you who are "old" enough may remember similar complaints from terran players in BW. While "other" races just could produce units like dragoons and hydralisks, which could be used to form basic bubble for your army that can do everything (ranged attack, durable (compared to terran) able to shoot ground and air) when supported just by one other kind of unit. (generally detectors.) On the other hand, terran, to be competitive, had to have a higher apm. Just marines were never enough, and when you added siege tanks you had to support them with anti air, and even then you had to siege/unsiege along the way. I feel the situation is similar at the moment. I am thinking on swithcing to zerg just for the sake of it - this was why I had chosen the terran over other races in BW. I was a failure in this manner, though, as you basically had to: vulture mines, siege unsiege, stim pack (requires medics - psi storm, reavers, lurkers just kill you outright if you dont extravaganza micro) Basically, at low level terran seemed to be in disadvantage. On the other hand, when you went up the ladder and watched high level players, you could see terran was dominating when it could pull off all the micro and macro together. I really hope this is going to be to true for the zerg in sc2. And overall, in my opinion zerg is more... zergish at the moment. Creep mechanics is a part of this feeling. I believe there are some underused options at zerg disposal at the moment. banelings nydus worms infestors spine crawlers. (yes I am serious) Almost in all games, even in high-level plays, I notice zerg have an excess mineral resource. I believe this can be used as terrain-denial, either by spew and crawler, or by extra hatcheries, especially in mineral fields where your opponen has to expand. (I believe zerglings and roaches are still fast enough for a contain, once you break your containment. Zerg should do everything to prevent the third expo of opponent.) Anyway, I have talked alot for someone who hasn't yet played zerg extensively, but these are the first feelings from the "other" perspective. Terran, broken or not, is very easy to play. Formula is so easy that it takes mid-level players to new heights. Wall of, produce barracks units, add some medivacs, a+ move. 100 hp ghost? 125 hp marauder? these are like jokes, even for terran. And thors... like a child's dream. The only problem with your parallel between BW Terran and SC2 Zerg is that even a newbie can realize that BW Terran can be very strong in the hands of a highly skilled player. I mean, tanks are super strong, stim is also very potent, you have units that heal, as well as powerful spells. This is not the case with the Zerg in SC2. All the options you listed are at most mediocre. Sieging/Unsieging and Tank micromanagement is surely going to have great effects due to the unit's potential, but spinecrawlers? They take 12 seconds to burrow and are killed in about 3 seconds by an anti-armored army. There is not much potential of growth here. I guess we can all see it. | ||
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Cirn9
1117 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote: Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it. This ^^^^^^^ I think that most zerg units could stand to be faster (ESPECIALLY HYDRALISKS OH GOD.) off-creep, and the same speed on creep as the current on-creep speed. Close the gap a little bit, it will still be WELL worth spreading creep. Zerglings are fine as-is, but the rest of zerg mobility, which is what the race was all about in BW is damn TERRIBLE as-is. Hydralisks specifically should have the same off-creep move speed as Stalkers. They should be mobile, especially if they're going to be so damn fragile. Roaches should probably have their speed boost not require lair tech - I really don't get why it needs to be a T2 upgrade. Its not like roaches are fast to begin with, they're sloooow - it's not like speed roaches are an extra-beefy speedling. Stimpacks and Concussive shells are available right off the bat for infantry, early roaches get ridiculously punished for not being able to move as fast as they need to for their short range to be effective. And it's not like their speed boost gives them an additional ability, like zealots. Ultralisks are also annoyingly slow off-creep, but at least they're nice and big and fat and still can do their first job of "soak lots of damage" while being slow. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 17 2010 21:25 mikku wrote: I'd prefer a speed debuff for toss/terran units on creep instead of a zerg speed-up My only complaint is that it makes creep completely useless in ZvZ, but I don't think that is much of an issue... Maybe +10% for Zerg and -20% for the other races? | ||
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Jlad
United States11 Posts
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SwaY-
Dominican Republic463 Posts
On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. how is HotS your last hope, rofl 3 weeks into vanilla retail and we have not had balance patches yet. Sometimes I feel you zergs are such drama queens. | ||
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Twitches
Canada365 Posts
My initial thought on the Hydralisk was that it was my favorite unit in BW because of how maneuverable it was.. To me, it doesn't make sense to have an expensive tier 2 unit be a glass cannon and laughably slow at the same time. At the moment Hydra's feel like they shouldn't ever really be massed and that you should only have maybe 12 sitting at home as an anti air and defensive unit. | ||
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imPERSONater
United States1324 Posts
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RawrAnOcean
United States359 Posts
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Twitches
Canada365 Posts
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