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I'm by no means a decent player, but one thing that has been bugging me for some time is that Zerg units are generally slower than they feel they ought to be. Without creep, a resource you won't have early game, Roaches don't swarm, they lumber. They can be kited by nearly any unit out there. Of the Tier One units, only Zerglings can get a speed boost before Lair tech; the rest are constrained to safely-kiteable speeds. And by the time you're able to get the speed upgrades for Banelings and Roaches you're not far from facing the first 1 base push from Terran or Protoss, a time at which several hundred gas hurts. If you get the upgrades safely then you're fine on creep, you can out maneuver the enemy just fine.
On creep. That's the part that's been bugging me. The speed of Zerg units off creep, particularly Hydralisks, means that if you're going to flank an enemy, it's either going to be on creep or with speedlings, which are rather poor at holding a line long enough to do significant damage. The creep is a dead giveaway as to where most of the Zerg army is. Zerg should, and in BW was, an ambush race. There was no need for gimmicky burrow attempts, the Zerg army could enter and leave battle more quickly than their opponents. It could split, hit several locations, and then pull back to defend a push or dodge an incoming army. The edge of the creep now is a line in the sand; it tells you that once you cross it, you are in enemy territory. You'll get out-maneuvered by the enemy, not the other way around.
I can't pretend that this would be balanced, but I'd rather see the Zerg benefit from creep in a way other than speed. Perhaps double regeneration rates on creep, or improve burrow in it. Make creep a haven for Zerg, a place to retreat to gather the swarm, but without cutting the Zerg's mobility in such a devastating fashion. Of course, it won't change. Creep will always remain a speed-boost, and nothing else. But I can at least dream, can't I?
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Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.
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I like everything you said there, Melancholia, but sadly I don't think we'll ever see such a change implemented, since it would require a massive overhaul of the existing zerg mechanic.
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I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
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Personally, its like saying "protoss dont have warpgates early on".
Solution produce an extra queen and spread creep earlier. 150 minerals and start spreading the tumors if the off creep speed is bugging you that much.
I see where you are coming from, the mobility of the units are quite slow off creep. But the fact of the matter is that most early units (Roach/zergling) have upgrades to increase their speed.
By the time your bringing out hydra's i would have to believe (from watching tournaments, opponents against me) they have the creep already spreading across the paths they need.
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You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
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managing your creep is just something you need to learn to work with in SC2, off creep most of your units are still decently fast you just have a big home advantage
but pondering about it, how would letting the hatchery act as a creep tumor affect the early game?
your spawn, hatchery starts expanding creep and after 15 seconds (as if it really were a tumor) you can place your first creep tumor queens keep the ability
i think it'l make warding off early harrass a bit less troublesome by having a free-ish creep tumor to expand within your base
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It would require a hard-code patch, but it's possible to fix this mechanic.
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Make a game against a very easy computer.
Forget macro, get lair tech with overlord speed, and get two queens.
Focus 100% on spreading creep
Notice how fast it is.
The only issue with spreading creep is how much attention it requires. If you can have great focus and very high APM, creep should not be much of an issue.
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Hydras' speed is really sad, but other than that I really like the new creep mechanic. It feels very Zerg; you're infesting the map itself.
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I agree. It's been bugging me ever since I started playing Zerg in the beta. To get to a point where you have a lot of the map covered in creep takes a little bit, requires more APM/attention devoted away from other stuff and both T and P can easily limit how fast you spread it even if you have a queen solely devoted to spreading tumors. I personally feel like it's one of the big reasons Zerg has to play so defensively early and mid game.
Zerglings are the only really mobile unit off of creep and they are easily negated by walled of chokes early game which require a mistake on the opponents end in order to take advantage. Against T mid-late game, PF's make it somewhat hard to do hit and run's on expansions without taking quite a few losses. Mutalisk harass can work well if your opponent is unprepared but I've found it increasingly difficult to use against Terran who just mass turrets/get a sensor tower and Protoss who open with Stargate/Phoenix.
Aside from those 2, there aren't really any mobile zerg units. Roaches are decently fast but they need to upgraded and hydras off of creep are just way too slow. The only real solution is just to make sure you spread that creep!
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The creep mechanic makes me feel like I'm being punished whenever I dare to move out of the territory I already control.
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I focused a lot on spreading creep because I've seen it turn tides. And I do a decent job of it. But every time it turns out like this.
Pop out your queen, start spreading creep. You're proactively placing new tumors and going in 3 different directions to provide vision and flanks and increase wrap arounds, so on.
So you hit T2, you might have a few skirmishes here and there, a few scuffles. And the creep maintains.
And then mid-mid/end-mid game hits and the observer is out. Or he got his second Orbital up. 1 scan can kill 3 full jumps of tumors if it lands right. If they kill off your spawning tumor, well chances are you aren't gonna be able to get your Queen 3/4 across the map to make a new one.
And all of a sudden this creep highway you've been working on for 15-18 minutes is dwindling. And its doing it, right before the BIG BATTLE, when you need it the most. And before you know it, its mostly gone.
That is what I think its the real problem of creep. It requires a ton of focus and apm you could be putting into other things. And then its just so easy to get rid of later on. Yeah early creep tumors costing a scan is not a bad trade. But most Protoss pop an observer pretty early, then an obs + a zealot will wipe out 15 minutes of tumor hopping. And if you're mech and your push is like a snail a scan for 3 tumors is a bargain if it wins you the final battle.
I like the reverse creep idea a lot actually. You wouldn't feel so devastated when all that work is killed off.
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I actually agree. Zerg doesn't have that "ninja" effect anymore. At least it's feel like that, but maybe with time nydus and drop plays are going to get better. We can only hope
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i think every zerg agrees on disliking the creep mechanic. i hate giving up map control for the first 10 minutes of the game just because of the lack of creep and all zerg units move like reavers off creep. that being said it looks cool when it spreads. and also did you notice on maps like steppes of war the creep climps a bit on the edges? pretty sweet.
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Terran / Protoss units being little slower on creep would be very nice and interesting idea.
Imagine poping creep with overlords on enemy mineral line to decrease probe/scv speed
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Zerg doesn't feel like zerg but I think it's more the 2 supply roach hydra and paper lings that are the problem. I like the way creep works.
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creep spreading is one of the coolest parts of SC2. Don't blame the mechanic, blame the early game unit design.
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love spreading creep, but hate that its a speed boost. It really should be faster regen or speed nerf for enemy.
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.
isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10?
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On August 17 2010 16:35 purerythem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10?
They said it'd be 18 months, which is long enough though...
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On August 17 2010 16:31 triumph wrote: creep spreading is one of the coolest parts of SC2. Don't blame the mechanic, blame the early game unit design.
Yeah creep mechanic is very cool but it should be a bonus, not a necessity.
Looks like they just lowered speed of all zerg units and then added creep speed bonus so they can move normal.
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On August 17 2010 16:24 OneFierceZealot wrote: i think every zerg agrees on disliking the creep mechanic. i hate giving up map control for the first 10 minutes of the game just because of the lack of creep and all zerg units move like reavers off creep. that being said it looks cool when it spreads. and also did you notice on maps like steppes of war the creep climps a bit on the edges? pretty sweet.
Nope, im a zerg player and i LOVE the creep mechanic... sounds like you are not bein proactive enough about spreading creep, especially when your first units are zerglings into usually very fast s/lings you are not really sacrificing map control... creep is almost like zergs own "maphacks" (HD reference), in conjuction with overlords the ability to know where the oposing army is coming from/when it is coming is priceless information...
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I think creep spreading actually enchances the zerg feel, they infest the landscape, but the way it works now is a bit meh, because as the OP says, without creep you're useless. I think it should take a lot more effort to stop creep spreading than just killing a few tumors. Fights against zerg I feel should have a large emphasis on preventing creep spread, but at the moment all I gotta do is get a raven or scan once or twice and the creep takes several huge steps back.
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Here's the secret...wait for it....SPREAD CREEP.
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The creep thing is pretty cool. I'd love to see increased regen on creep and I seriously don't see how it would be overpowered. The current regen rate is like 1 hp per 4 seconds, so making that 1hp/2s wouldn't be overpowered all of a sudden right? It's still not a medivac heal or shield recharge....
What I do have a problem with is that too many upgrades require a Lair. Personally I think Baneling speed, Roach speed and Burrow could be Tier 1 just as good. That would allow for a LOT more T1 gameplay. Currently Zerg really needs to tech to Lair in order to be decent... i think a bit too much was placed at Lair level...
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I like having a speed bonus on creep, but I'd rather have it not be so drastic. It's a shame that blizzard made it one of the key zerg macro mechanics to choose from on the queen, so at the moment it looks like the functionality of creep is here to stay for the long run.
I think if zerg units had only like a 5-10% speed boost on creep, then the difference in speed could be given to units like the roach and hydra to make the zerg feel more swarmish again. Make hydras faster off creep but don't make the on-creep bonus too zany.
So much of the time I have a big army and, even though I'm very proactive in my creep tumoring, I still feel limited in where I can maneuver my forces. In BW, I owned the map and now it feels like I just own the creep.
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I'm with you Melancolia. I agree 100%. we are supposed to flank, but without creep we can only do it with lings.
To spread creep... it's like an old tetris-like gameboy game inside starcraft. worst thing ever done by blizzard.
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On August 17 2010 16:17 Mindcrime wrote: The creep mechanic makes me feel like I'm being punished whenever I dare to move out of the territory I already control.
:| This takes the words right out of my mouth. It isn't like Terran is paving roads everywhere they go.
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Perhaps in Heart of the Swarm, Blizzard will create a unit that actively spreads creep on its own like a mobile spewing Overlord? Or perhaps some spell that increases the speed of nearby units?
A lot of people say that they hate the new creep mechanic and wish it was just like the days of Brood War. Only problem is this is SC2, not SC1. I do feel that Zerg moves slow as heck off creep, but I do feel that the way it has been implemented Zerg has to spread its creep and territory which is before a neglected resource.
Note also, that Zerg is pretty fast. Its not like Hydras move to a complete crawl and Roaches are still decent, especially considering that your typical anti Zerg armies aka Immortal Collosi and Terran mech are generally slow allowing you to outmanuever them. And if you still feel you can't ambush anyone try messing with Nydus Worms in the mid-late game. Or Overlord drops. Or air units like Mutas...
The point of these methods is not that "Yes the guy is ready for all of these things. Zerg in SC2 have nothing". Because if he is, then he would probably not have allowed you in Brood War to outmanuever him and ambush him because he is good enough to account for all of these things.
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I love the creep mechanics @..@
Does it need some number tweaking here and there for balance? Perhaps, I cannot make the decision. But heck it's one of the coolest thing in the game ;O
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As a Toss player, I have to agree with the OP. The biggest one that stands out is the Hydra.
Hydras are laughably slow off of creep... it seems that their creep speed ought to be about their base speed, and their current off-creep speed should be the result of massive genetic failures resulting in a new unit called the Gimpalisk.
Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
That's not a solution.
The issue here is that Zerg ONLY can flank properly on creep.
In BW all our units were incredibly fast. We had no ''laggers'', Speedlings, Hydralisks, Lurkers, all were fast units and could be upgraded with speed very fast. Currently Hydralisks, even though they are much stronger in DPS department, are incredibly slow and have low HP.
Roaches get their speed buff at lair.
It's not an overstatement when people say that Hydra is a creep unit, because their near impossible to micro efficiently outside creep, against units like HTs, Colossus, and Siege Tanks.
Flanking when your not on creep is very hard, and if you think just ''making more queens to spread creep early on'' will fix anything, it won't lol. People been copying the fast creep thing that Idra did for ages now, and usually the creep will be at most only on your side of the map, which doesen't allow Zerg to be offensive at all. Only proper offensive unit is Roaches, but again, only when upgraded. Lings die too easily, to pretty much everything.
And sadly the maps currently don't really allow proper flanking in the first place due to them being so cramped.
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Tweaks might be necessary but the general idea is solid. Zerg are SUPPOSED to be proactive about spreading creep. Zerg being "too slow" off creep is a subjective thing, as non-zerg I might as well claim that Zerg units are too fast on creep.
Creep isn´t supposed to be a home advantage, it´s supposed to be a mapcontrol taking incentive. Yeah, a single Scan might be able to see 3 Tumors - but doesn´t the Terran spend MORE resources for that than you did for the initial Tumor? Couldn´t you use the knowledge about the enemys position for your advantage?
Regarding different advantages: HP regen just makes it a home advantage. Too inconsequential, there is no incentive to infest the map. Slows enemys: Merely makes airunits a higher priority against Zerg.
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On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote:Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it.
This is exactly it. I don't mind the creep mechanic atm, but the only reason is because other players haven't yet been as proactive about stopping it as I have been about spreading it. Once there's a shift in strategy to sniping creep tumors I can imagine getting very frustrated with the whole thing.
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The primary rebuttal to what I've said appears to be that spreading creep is sufficient to address all of my concerns. There are, as has been pointed out, a few problems with this. First, the point at which your creep really starts spreading across the whole map if left unhindered is also the point at which they have easy detection to eliminate all that work. Second, you shouldn't be able to spread creep right to their front door, which means that the speed penalty off creep is a significant hindering factor preventing Zerg aggression; it's one of the biggest reasons that Zerg really has to react to pushes, never initiate them. Third, you don't spread creep unhindered except against bad opponents, they should be working to block your attempts. Fourth, creep carpets won't help at all with early game aggression, as the only unit, Zerglings, that are truly fast off creep are also desperately weak against any location defended even slightly, especially at chokes. Creep has, ironically, killed the Zerg aggression.
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I agree. Creep is almost completely necessary to have any mobility as Zerg. It requires the APM and time devoted to spreading it, yet it is killed as easily as having a Raven, Observer, or Scan. I love the idea of enemy units moving slower on creep, and increasing Zerg's speed off-creep.
Compared to BW, at least, SC2 Zerg is a broken race.
Everyone has just kinda laid back and accepted the fact that Zerg is this extremely reactionary race, but is this for the best? Why can't Zerg ever be the aggressor? The SC2 "Swarm" feels neutered.
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use nydus more
i think making creep slow the opponents wont change it creeps still needed then as the advantage it gives you is so huge
either creep should give very little advantages like better healing rate or creep tumors should be buffed so that they cant be killed that easy. they could even be invulnerable to everything except for spells or something like that
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On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
What? He isn't complaining about that at all, he is saying that zerg is too slow off of creep.. Spreading creep with ovies and tumors isn't permanent like speed was in SC1, it's easily countered with an obs or a quick scan. I agree, some units are painful off of creep, and when you have a toss or terran army at your front door, I assure you that any decent player won't be on creep. So know,"LOL GET APM" doesn't fix the speed problem of Zerg troops, it'll just get you supply capped if your using ovies to do it.
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An idea that I've been thinking over is actually to combine that ridiculously silly "nest" ability in the recent troll patch with creep spread.
Instead of having a queen moving round the map spreading creep, the queen can use "nest" which basically attaches it to a hatchery. The queen can then use "creep spread" for the same amount of energy, but rather than placing a creep tumour, it increases the radius that creep spreads from the hatchery. That way, to remove the creep you must actually destroy the hatchery producing it, rather than just cruising across the map with a raven/observer killing all the tumours.
Perhaps when hatcheries are connected by creep (which would take longer this way), the creep could begin spawning in a radius around the center between those two hatcheries, at an increased rate.
Another way to do it would be that each "creep spread" increases the rate at which creep spreads each time, so the longer you have a queen "nesting" and using this spell the faster the creep will spread.
It would also make turtling something to be thought about because you won't just be able to remove all the creep when you leave your base.
Anyway, I'm not expecting this to be implemented at all, but I think it's worth thinking outside the box with the creep issues.
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Even with perfect creep management and an early starting tumor, it isn't possible to have a creep highway to your opponent's base until the mid-to-late game. This is assuming he hasn't destroyed any tumors, an act that sets you back SEVERELY since you need to bring up a Queen.
The result is that Zerg offense is almost impossible in the early and mid game, since Hydras and Roaches are unusably slow and can't retreat. You have to be completely certain of game-ending victory to attack with anything more significant than Zergling runarounds. That (and other issues of Zerg suckiness) lead to Zerg players being 100% defensive and macroing up until the late late game.
I will say this, however: creep is a double-edged sword. When you have it all over the map, it is simply too good. You have vision of everything and your forces are absurdly mobile. But you can't do jack until you have it over the entire map, or at least a good portion of it.
Personally I think that the fixing of Zerg will involve units, but creep is an important factor that can't be overlooked.
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On August 17 2010 17:46 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
What? He isn't complaining about that at all, he is saying that zerg is too slow off of creep.. Spreading creep with ovies and tumors isn't permanent like speed was in SC1, it's easily countered with an obs or a quick scan. I agree, some units are painful off of creep, and when you have a toss or terran army at your front door, I assure you that any decent player won't be on creep. So know,"LOL GET APM" doesn't fix the speed problem of Zerg troops, it'll just get you supply capped if your using ovies to do it.
Dont bother explaining, these forums are slowly gaining more idiots by the seconds. They are soon taking over unless mods show how drunk on power they really are 
On topic: I really liked the read OP, you make a solid point that hits both balance and design, a perfect combination.
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I like the creep mechanic, but it does seem like it encourages zerg to play more like the other races -- i.e. to play fairly passively and then fight with big unit balls in the center of the map. I think there's less individuality in how the races play in SC2 compared to BW. I also wonder if some of the major reasons creep is in the game is because the designers thought it would be cool, and because it acts as an APM sink for higher level players. It makes me wonder how zerg would play if it always ran at a speed intermediate between on/off creep...
I also sometimes think that there is more potential for using hit-and-run zerg tactics than people are using right now. I feel like the 1 control group unit ball strategy works because playing BW for 12 years (or whatever) got people so macro focused that now when they play SC2 they concentrate on macro and don't sweat army control so much because it's so easy now. I do feel that as the beta progressed people started to use a more BW style of having multiple attack groups throughout the map. I wonder if that will continue to come back into style when SC2 becomes a major professional sport and pros really start to raise the bar of how SC2 will be played. Maybe then zerg will regain it's 'ninja' reputation a little bit.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
I was recently talking to a friend and this is what I had come up with as well. If it was this way, a Zerg actively spreading creep would be put at an advantage, whereas currently actively spreading creep only brings you back to even in fights.
Also, it would make it much less devastating when opponents destroyed tumors.
If it was this way, it should not effect workers, to prevent a queen drop and quick tumor to slow down mining.
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Zerg is currently the most defensive and reactive out of all the races. Sure it's not "zergy", but personally I'm okay with it. There are still plenty of zergy things to do, mainly creep management and speedling counters, muta-harass, overseers are very zerg-like too.
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Seriously I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. It feels like Zerg has a great disadvantage off creep rather than having an advantage on creep. Moreover, creep is the only thing/mechanic Zerg has as a 'defender's advantage'. Hydralisk move speed off creep is ridiculous. Roach and banelings' movespeed off creep pre-upgrade is also safely kite-able, more so to MM with stim.
I don't get why so many people are saying SPREAD CREEP. This is about early game. Notice OP mentioning pre-lair? I'm sure these people don't play Zerg so they don't know how annoyingly slow creep spreads. Plus its impossible to spread creep all the way to your opponent's base in 15 minutes. Decent players also actively 'de-creeps' the map. Zerg already requires much more APM with the injections etc and yet we have to spread creep all over to remain competitive? It IS broken.
And i can't believe how many idiots posted in this thread. Lol seriously.. some of the replies...
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BW era zerg would dominate sc2 era zerg. How much de-evolution did they do in those years?
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The whole creep thing is just dumb and annoying.
"Hey guys, we're gonna take away your mobility and make your units slow like molasses. If you want the speed back, you have to spend extra time and energy to spread creep, which can easily be eliminated."
Blizzard is all like this now.
"Hey guys, we're gonna take away all the things from Bnet that you had for free. If you want them back, you have to pay us more money."
And etc...
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Maybe creep tumors could have more hp, more armor and some serious hp regen, so that it takes at least 5-6 marines and a raven to take it out. That way if someone is trying to hinder your creep spreading you can get free marine kills.
I like the creep mechanic, but I also feel that Zerg should be a fast race that is everywhere on the map at the same time, maybe roach speed could be hatch instead of lair?
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An extra queen is much cheaper than the bw method of using drones to make colonies plus it has other uses. Hydras could use a speed upgrade like they had in bw. It would help a little but the tanks smart cast would still dominate that matchup.
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Im all in favour for decrease (or eliminate altogether) creep speed boost and compensate accordingly with increase in unit base speed. Spreading creep will still be beneficial (it gives vision after all)
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I like the idea of faster regen on creep and no effect of creep on speed (which would have to be faster than current off-creep speed). Creep regen would have the opposite effect fast-creep currently has, by encouraging hit-and-run tactics.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
That's actually a good idea
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On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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ye especially hydralisks lack mobility off creep. I think a simple 150/150 upgrade would be enough to fix the issue. (stupid suggestion incoming)
Name: Whatever Cost: 100/100 / 150/150 Effect: Hydralisks now move at the same speed (on creep speed eh :D) on creep and off creep.
There are tons of way to balance and tweak the creep spreading system (and related bonuses) however I feel that the main problem is infact the SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW hydralisk. Roaches without speed are quite slow off creep too and that doens't help at all when being offensive early game, but I think other zerg units are pretty balanced in terms of movement speed as of now.
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This is so true. Zerg is supposed to be the swarm and swarm the enemy. Like in all of the cinematics they are fast and scary. The zergling is the only zerg unit that is fast enough to be zerg. Imo they should buff all of the zerg units speed and just use creep as a life regeneration thing.
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ive felt for the longest time that the creep speed bonus should be smaller and the natural movement speed of all zerg units should be higher. This would make the creep speed bonus actually a bonus rather than a necessity.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
This.
I was thinking exactly the same thing and literally came on here today to post a thread suggesting it.
The only other creep advantage I would like to see, is allow tunneling units to traverse cliffs that are creeped.
As already stated, its all fair and good saying "Be more proactive spreading creep". But the worst thing for a Zerg player is (as already been stated) the point in the game where the enemy starts detecting the creep and killing it off. At that point there is zero chance of making it again. Why? Because you need to get your fat queen all the way up the map unscathed, poop out a bunch of Creep tumor and the start the spreading process all over again, and Guess what. The enemy can just as easily kill it off again. Remember One Creep tumor can only spawn one child tumor its entire life.
Using overlords is fine, but again during an enemy push, its a bit risky as it means your ovies are a target and losing Supply when the enemy is pushing is not good.
At the moment I feel Creep limits Zerg mobility not enhances it. I never ever want my Hydras off creep So I effectively "Tank walk" up the map with Zerg... Thats not right surely?
As suggested in this tread. Creep would be better if it reduced non-zerg speed rather than increased zerg speed. (so give all zerg units their on creep speed all the time)
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I think that the creep mechanic of SC2 is one of the best things they added. But they should make ovie creeppoop T1 (maybe upgradeable).
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On August 17 2010 16:35 purerythem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10?
You think we need to wait 8-10 years before the expansions? Wtf?! Get real please.
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On August 17 2010 19:28 Rokit5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:35 purerythem wrote:On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10? You think we need to wait 8-10 years before the expansions? Wtf?! Get real please. He was joking 
Hell, even Blizzard has some fun at their own expense about how they delay everything.
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On August 17 2010 16:43 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:31 triumph wrote: creep spreading is one of the coolest parts of SC2. Don't blame the mechanic, blame the early game unit design. Yeah creep mechanic is very cool but it should be a bonus, not a necessity. Looks like they just lowered speed of all zerg units and then added creep speed bonus so they can move normal. It should be a necessity but the units shouldn't be underpowered. Problem is it feels like mechanic for the sake of clicking instead of creep being a strategy for the sake of additional strategic depth with tie ins to what your army is composed of >_< insert bishing here.
But going back to the world of what can be done if creep feels up. We have the tumor which takes some time to spread and we have the overlord which can't spread or scout effectively until T2. To power up creep expansion and that big scouting is random issue everyone has the ovie upgrade could be moved to t1/1.5ish to help creep spread. Ovie positioning towards a flank or good angle early on may become more important as well as ovie hunting for the enemy.
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Dear friends;
I play terran since the BW, and now I am really disturbed with this so called imbalance issues of the race. Especially when I read several zerg-casts that aproach the situation from several different angles.
Either the unit design is flawed, or the queen mehcanics, or the creep mechanic, or other races (especially terran) is too strong etc. While I really feel the difference of terran when compared to BW, as it feels very easy to play, I am not yet convinced of a total imbalance.
Those of you who are "old" enough may remember similar complaints from terran players in BW. While "other" races just could produce units like dragoons and hydralisks, which could be used to form basic bubble for your army that can do everything (ranged attack, durable (compared to terran) able to shoot ground and air) when supported just by one other kind of unit. (generally detectors.) On the other hand, terran, to be competitive, had to have a higher apm. Just marines were never enough, and when you added siege tanks you had to support them with anti air, and even then you had to siege/unsiege along the way.
I feel the situation is similar at the moment. I am thinking on swithcing to zerg just for the sake of it - this was why I had chosen the terran over other races in BW. I was a failure in this manner, though, as you basically had to:
vulture mines, siege unsiege, stim pack (requires medics - psi storm, reavers, lurkers just kill you outright if you dont extravaganza micro)
Basically, at low level terran seemed to be in disadvantage. On the other hand, when you went up the ladder and watched high level players, you could see terran was dominating when it could pull off all the micro and macro together.
I really hope this is going to be to true for the zerg in sc2. And overall, in my opinion zerg is more... zergish at the moment. Creep mechanics is a part of this feeling. I believe there are some underused options at zerg disposal at the moment.
banelings nydus worms infestors spine crawlers. (yes I am serious)
Almost in all games, even in high-level plays, I notice zerg have an excess mineral resource. I believe this can be used as terrain-denial, either by spew and crawler, or by extra hatcheries, especially in mineral fields where your opponen has to expand. (I believe zerglings and roaches are still fast enough for a contain, once you break your containment. Zerg should do everything to prevent the third expo of opponent.)
Anyway, I have talked alot for someone who hasn't yet played zerg extensively, but these are the first feelings from the "other" perspective.
Terran, broken or not, is very easy to play. Formula is so easy that it takes mid-level players to new heights. Wall of, produce barracks units, add some medivacs, a+ move. 100 hp ghost? 125 hp marauder? these are like jokes, even for terran.
And thors... like a child's dream.
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There should be no instant speed reduction when units come off creep, its wet so make it mud on my shoes, so that units keep creep on their foot/tails/pincers so they glide a lil bit on it and get standart speed over time. And yea, its annoying to need to make all this things every game and then they just roflmovekill with some detector and kill all your fuckn art, and you have to do it again and again, but anyway i find it pretty fair, since we also have overlords drop creep wherever we want and tumors give us the sight of those areas, so if you need creep for fight - bring overlords, spread them all the way to the fight place so you get fast reinforcement etc.
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I actually think this would solve alot of the earlygame issues with zerg. Quick spread of creep combined with zergling speed would deal with helion and reaper harass/mass reapers. Some of the issues we have with slow and expensive upgrades that are required to deal with terran early preassure, like timing push with stim often coming before baneling/roach speed. And even hampering their ability to scout in the early game.
Other issues like sunken productiontime would be offset by early creepspread, and new tactics would involve ovies spreading creep on mineral lines/the enemies quickest route to an expansion if you feel like flanking them. Or even behind the enemy in a confrontation to hamper their retreat, making ovies more of an active unit.
I like this idea alot, and if the zerg is proactive about spreading creep it would allow easier flanking in the later stages of the game - by having the enemy forces take longer to produce a concave/defensive line when fighting on creep or fall back to a choke. It would really solve alot of issues
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Yeah you should try out Zerg Windwalker, see how it goes. I've done the occasional Terran game after a losing streak with Zerg. That really shows the difference between the races. Terran is really laid back in comparison with Zerg. A lot of stuff just seems to flow kinda naturally while Zerg always needs more APM just to keep up with everything (injecting larvae, spreading creep, etc.).
As far as the creep highway thing goes, I think it's a good practise to start out with creep tumors and as midgame comes along, let the overlords help out by spreading the creep more. By the time you have a lair, you should be having enough OLs to reach to other side of the map.. just make sure your OL positioning early game accounts for the future creep highway..
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make it so that creep tumors can spawn infinite tumors
that way i won't have to waste apm on a queen when the enemy decides to enter my creep
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On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote: As a Toss player, I have to agree with the OP. The biggest one that stands out is the Hydra.
Hydras are laughably slow off of creep... it seems that their creep speed ought to be about their base speed, and their current off-creep speed should be the result of massive genetic failures resulting in a new unit called the Gimpalisk.
Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it.
man you said it perfectly. Gimpalisk lol.
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I think that the creep is not interresting. Developpers probably thought this was a cool feature, but it doesn't add any depth to the game. It only adds constraints to zergs.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
I like creep, I just dislike hydraspeed. Basically that sums it all up.
Apart from Hydralisks I feel most of the Zerg army moves at a decent pace, of course some improvements would be nice (hey, who doesn't want hit units to move even faster?) but meh, I can't really see why this would be an issue.
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On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote: As a Toss player, I have to agree with the OP. The biggest one that stands out is the Hydra.
Hydras are laughably slow off of creep... it seems that their creep speed ought to be about their base speed, and their current off-creep speed should be the result of massive genetic failures resulting in a new unit called the Gimpalisk.
Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it.
QFE. Creep should be a bonus in defending, and expanding, not a necessity to attack the enemy. Let's face it, any capable terran/toss player will destroy the tumors that are getting close to his base.
Dear friends;
I play terran since the BW, and now I am really disturbed with this so called imbalance issues of the race. Especially when I read several zerg-casts that aproach the situation from several different angles.
Either the unit design is flawed, or the queen mehcanics, or the creep mechanic, or other races (especially terran) is too strong etc. While I really feel the difference of terran when compared to BW, as it feels very easy to play, I am not yet convinced of a total imbalance.
Those of you who are "old" enough may remember similar complaints from terran players in BW. While "other" races just could produce units like dragoons and hydralisks, which could be used to form basic bubble for your army that can do everything (ranged attack, durable (compared to terran) able to shoot ground and air) when supported just by one other kind of unit. (generally detectors.) On the other hand, terran, to be competitive, had to have a higher apm. Just marines were never enough, and when you added siege tanks you had to support them with anti air, and even then you had to siege/unsiege along the way.
I feel the situation is similar at the moment. I am thinking on swithcing to zerg just for the sake of it - this was why I had chosen the terran over other races in BW. I was a failure in this manner, though, as you basically had to:
vulture mines, siege unsiege, stim pack (requires medics - psi storm, reavers, lurkers just kill you outright if you dont extravaganza micro)
Basically, at low level terran seemed to be in disadvantage. On the other hand, when you went up the ladder and watched high level players, you could see terran was dominating when it could pull off all the micro and macro together.
I really hope this is going to be to true for the zerg in sc2. And overall, in my opinion zerg is more... zergish at the moment. Creep mechanics is a part of this feeling. I believe there are some underused options at zerg disposal at the moment.
banelings nydus worms infestors spine crawlers. (yes I am serious)
Almost in all games, even in high-level plays, I notice zerg have an excess mineral resource. I believe this can be used as terrain-denial, either by spew and crawler, or by extra hatcheries, especially in mineral fields where your opponen has to expand. (I believe zerglings and roaches are still fast enough for a contain, once you break your containment. Zerg should do everything to prevent the third expo of opponent.)
Anyway, I have talked alot for someone who hasn't yet played zerg extensively, but these are the first feelings from the "other" perspective.
Terran, broken or not, is very easy to play. Formula is so easy that it takes mid-level players to new heights. Wall of, produce barracks units, add some medivacs, a+ move. 100 hp ghost? 125 hp marauder? these are like jokes, even for terran.
And thors... like a child's dream.
The only problem with your parallel between BW Terran and SC2 Zerg is that even a newbie can realize that BW Terran can be very strong in the hands of a highly skilled player. I mean, tanks are super strong, stim is also very potent, you have units that heal, as well as powerful spells.
This is not the case with the Zerg in SC2. All the options you listed are at most mediocre. Sieging/Unsieging and Tank micromanagement is surely going to have great effects due to the unit's potential, but spinecrawlers? They take 12 seconds to burrow and are killed in about 3 seconds by an anti-armored army.
There is not much potential of growth here. I guess we can all see it.
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I'd prefer a speed debuff for toss/terran units on creep instead of a zerg speed-up
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On August 17 2010 17:18 neohero9 wrote: Zerg units should get a bonus on creep, not suffer a penalty when off of it. This ^^^^^^^
I think that most zerg units could stand to be faster (ESPECIALLY HYDRALISKS OH GOD.) off-creep, and the same speed on creep as the current on-creep speed. Close the gap a little bit, it will still be WELL worth spreading creep.
Zerglings are fine as-is, but the rest of zerg mobility, which is what the race was all about in BW is damn TERRIBLE as-is.
Hydralisks specifically should have the same off-creep move speed as Stalkers. They should be mobile, especially if they're going to be so damn fragile.
Roaches should probably have their speed boost not require lair tech - I really don't get why it needs to be a T2 upgrade. Its not like roaches are fast to begin with, they're sloooow - it's not like speed roaches are an extra-beefy speedling. Stimpacks and Concussive shells are available right off the bat for infantry, early roaches get ridiculously punished for not being able to move as fast as they need to for their short range to be effective. And it's not like their speed boost gives them an additional ability, like zealots.
Ultralisks are also annoyingly slow off-creep, but at least they're nice and big and fat and still can do their first job of "soak lots of damage" while being slow.
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On August 17 2010 21:25 mikku wrote: I'd prefer a speed debuff for toss/terran units on creep instead of a zerg speed-up
My only complaint is that it makes creep completely useless in ZvZ, but I don't think that is much of an issue...
Maybe +10% for Zerg and -20% for the other races?
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I don't know about the other changes, but it would help creep spreads in general if queens started with 50 energy. That means you could micro it out to at least a small skeleton of a start without having to sacrifice precious larva injects. The injects are too important early game.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. how is HotS your last hope, rofl 3 weeks into vanilla retail and we have not had balance patches yet. Sometimes I feel you zergs are such drama queens.
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Well said, Windwalker.
My initial thought on the Hydralisk was that it was my favorite unit in BW because of how maneuverable it was.. To me, it doesn't make sense to have an expensive tier 2 unit be a glass cannon and laughably slow at the same time. At the moment Hydra's feel like they shouldn't ever really be massed and that you should only have maybe 12 sitting at home as an anti air and defensive unit.
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My biggest peeve is when I get creep really far out, a terran scans and kills, then I need to wait 5 minutes as I painstakingly tumor all the way back. If the creep tumor two back from the one that got killed was able to start creeping again it wouldn't be so bad. The tumors just take so long to get out there that once the train dies effective creeping ends for a long portion of the game for zerg.
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The hydra speed is horrible off creep, everything else is bearable. But I feel if they buff hydra speed zvp is just going to get imbalanced.
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I was just watching Moman play and he gets OL speed and sets them up where he's going to attack so that he can run his hydras on and off temp creep when he needs a little more finesse.. Never thought of doing this, but it looks like a great idea and should be tried out a little more.
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You know what if they did "Fix" the off creep zerg speed it would be great to hear the Terran players QQ.
We could then make game improvement strats for them like: Kill the creep Use Drops Make a more diverse army Tech Switch faster Try leaving your base ...
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lol the zerg creep mechanic is a cute gimmick that Blizz added and has failed miserably and I highly doubt it will be removed. Creeping requires alot of apm and attention to what.... put you on even footing with your oppenent, your spending apm just to be even with your opponent rofl. Oh but what about the vision they offer... a good player will send his obs with a pack of w/e and kill every single friggen tumor and that requires way less apm than creating them. You are not waisting scans killing the tumors you are crippling the zergs ability to manuever. So now your tumors are gone no more creep and you are being pushed off the map by an army the same food count but incredibly superior. GG
Oh and ive killed a few hidden hatcheries mid/late game by seeing the creep and thinking to myself hmmm i wonder where this goes.
I played zerg from phase 1 to release and i have now switched to toss and terran for lols, I dont try to play this game pro. So why play a race that requires WAY more skill, effort, and focus just to beat some scrub whos whole plan is the 1 base push. And the fact that 1 base push is completly viable and deadly even if scouted makes me rofl even harder. GG blizz.
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On August 17 2010 22:50 Kronologic wrote: You know what if they did "Fix" the off creep zerg speed it would be great to hear the Terran players QQ.
We could then make game improvement strats for them like: Kill the creep Use Drops Make a more diverse army Tech Switch faster Try leaving your base ... haha the terran's just havent learned how to use their race yet! ^_^ i'd love that.
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I love the creep mechanic =/. It's one of the only things that really keeps me playing Zerg.
The solution to a lack of hydra aggression is nydus networks, no this doesn't mean "you're doing it wrong make networks!", but if the network was easier (cheaper) to get up and running you could use them as forward positions to start spreading creep from. So rather than having to cover the entire map distance between being able to be aggressive with hydralisks you could secure a semi-forward position with nydus then build from there cutting the time to be aggressive down naturally.
As for having your tumors sniped.... well if you spread creep to an area you should be willing to control that area. If you can't keep your enemy from moving out and sniping creep then you're probably not in a good position to begin with creep snipe or not. Sure sometimes I sacrifice my outermost tumors so I can get intel on the enemy and engage on my own terms, but that's a conscious choice.
Besides which is the bigger investment... 150/0 Queen for tumors, 50/100 observer, or 1 MULE lost for 1 scan.
Observers are especially nice, it's free scouting for you. If an observer lets toss snipe your tumor you know colossi are on the way.
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I'm not the most active creeper but I do a decent job of it. Almost all my army encounters are off creep and yet, I've never faced problems with flanking and such. If you flank, you're often using speedlings anyways, what's wrong with that? Having your main army in front while speedlings get around is perfectly fine. The only thing creep gives me is the speed to retreat with my remaining forces after the battle is mostly done.
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Yeah, it's not so much that Zerg units are fast when on creep, it's more like they are super slow and not competitive when off-creep. See: hydra, roach, ultra before buff (thank god that one's addressed). So in reality, creep isn't so much a buff speed wise (although it is for scouting definitely) as much as it's a requirement to stay on par with your opponent.
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I really like the creep change. It makes it useful and another aspect of the game that differentiates the noobs from better players
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Creep is good if applied correctly, about it as far as this thread goes. If you`re not a good player, you have problems using creep to your advantage. if you`re a good player, you won`t!
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On August 17 2010 23:54 eoLithic wrote: Creep is good if applied correctly, about it as far as this thread goes. If you`re not a good player, you have problems using creep to your advantage. if you`re a good player, you won`t!
That isn't the issue. The issue is that creep isn't an advantage, it puts you on even footing. Without creep you are at a disadvantage. That is the core issue. Creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage. If this changed it would be a really cool mechanic.
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To me it seems like zerg on-creep speed should be their base speed and their off creep speed is a penalty for not being on the creep. I like the idea of spreading creep but I think zerg suffers too much off creep.
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On August 17 2010 17:49 Swede wrote: An idea that I've been thinking over is actually to combine that ridiculously silly "nest" ability in the recent troll patch with creep spread.
Instead of having a queen moving round the map spreading creep, the queen can use "nest" which basically attaches it to a hatchery. The queen can then use "creep spread" for the same amount of energy, but rather than placing a creep tumour, it increases the radius that creep spreads from the hatchery. That way, to remove the creep you must actually destroy the hatchery producing it, rather than just cruising across the map with a raven/observer killing all the tumours.
Perhaps when hatcheries are connected by creep (which would take longer this way), the creep could begin spawning in a radius around the center between those two hatcheries, at an increased rate.
Another way to do it would be that each "creep spread" increases the rate at which creep spreads each time, so the longer you have a queen "nesting" and using this spell the faster the creep will spread.
It would also make turtling something to be thought about because you won't just be able to remove all the creep when you leave your base.
Anyway, I'm not expecting this to be implemented at all, but I think it's worth thinking outside the box with the creep issues.
lol.. nesting..
Anyways, I think T and P units should move slower on creep
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On August 17 2010 22:05 SwaY- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. how is HotS your last hope, rofl 3 weeks into vanilla retail and we have not had balance patches yet. Sometimes I feel you zergs are such drama queens. Please contribute to the thread rather than bashing other people.
That said I think that hydra speed off creep is horribad. I lold at Gimpalisk. the worst part is that it really wouldnt hurt balance for the to be a little faster. it's not like there's a key unit the gimps need to be slower then while off creep.
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On August 18 2010 00:05 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 23:54 eoLithic wrote: Creep is good if applied correctly, about it as far as this thread goes. If you`re not a good player, you have problems using creep to your advantage. if you`re a good player, you won`t! That isn't the issue. The issue is that creep isn't an advantage, it puts you on even footing. Without creep you are at a disadvantage. That is the core issue. Creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage. If this changed it would be a really cool mechanic.
How is it not an advantage.
On creep...
Speed Roach = 3.3 Hydra = 3.375 Speedling = 3.8
For comparison....
Marine with stim = 3.375 Stalkers = 2.975
Sure with their abilities like stim and blink the 'advantage' becomes 'even', but that's the flavor of the race. Terran and Protoss use active abilities for their mobility, while Zerg uses creep.
If Zerg units were insanely mobile relative to Terran and Protoss units on creep then it'd just draw games out and given Zerg a crazy advantage. I think the speed mechanics are really fine right now.
If you DO need to buff creep more, I'd have it be with burrow.
Example: Creep reduces burrow/unborrow time for all units (not crawlers) by 50% Creep hides burrow movement graphical affect
As for the hydra...
Other than speed off creep and vulnerability to AoE damage the hydra is one of the best units in the game. Their dps/population is through the roof (below stimmed marines though).
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lol its simply not an advantage because you have to spread it over the entire map. its not like pressing the stim key or press the blink key to teleport 50 stalkers 235 yards away in 1 second.. why there is so much ignorance
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I think part of the problem is that the reward for all your effort to spread creep for 10 mins is nullified by a Terran or Protoss just killing your tumors when they are read to push. They can turtle all game and even if the creep is by their door, it is easy to push back. I think Blizzard should add a mechanic that makes creep harder to kill the longer it is in place.
One way of doing this is that the health of a creep tumor increases over time. So the newly spawned creep tumors will be venerable and can be taken down easily, but tumors near your base, or areas you had control over the whole time will be "entrenched" and take a lot more effort to kill. This gives the zerg player the time to react and try to defend the tumor.
How much health a tumor should have and high fast it should increase is obviously something that would need to be tested, but the basic idea that the longer a creep tumor has been around the harder it is to kill, will reward Z players that actively spread creep early, and also reward T or P players who actively kill creep early.
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On August 18 2010 00:34 iNty.sCream wrote: lol its simply not an advantage because you have to spread it over the entire map. its not like pressing the stim key or press the blink key to teleport 50 stalkers 235 yards away in 1 second.. why there is so much ignorance
flavor of the race much?
Stim isn't free (to use or to research). Blink isn't free (it's potentially the most expensive as it demands a citadel to be built) and it's not clear what the resulting move speed of stalkers constantly using blink are. plus it only affects one unit, two if charge is also gotten.
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i like spreading creep. but the fact that you NEED the creep at all in order for most if not all zerg ground units to be effective is just retarded.
imo spreading creep should be a option/luxury, not a necessity because zerg units are crappily slow off creep if there not speed lings.
+ its way way way to easy to kill creep tumors. they get 1-2 shoted by just about everything. for toss all u rly need is an observer and 1 dt or 1 zealot. as a terran seige tank and scans OR u can just get a raven and drop auto turrets.
why ppl havent abused this yet ill never know.
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On August 18 2010 00:40 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 00:34 iNty.sCream wrote: lol its simply not an advantage because you have to spread it over the entire map. its not like pressing the stim key or press the blink key to teleport 50 stalkers 235 yards away in 1 second.. why there is so much ignorance flavor of the race much? Stim isn't free (to use or to research). Blink isn't free (it's potentially the most expensive as it demands a citadel to be built) and it's not clear what the resulting move speed of stalkers constantly using blink are. plus it only affects one unit, two if charge is also gotten.
Yes but your missing the point. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race. That should be on and off creep.
The speed advantage gained by spreading creep should be a Reward for investing the APM. Not a punishment for not doing it.
I guess there is no analogies that I can make for the other races that really compares tbh.
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What I never understood is why the Hydra has a 50% speed advantage on creep, Queen has 170%, while the rest is 30%. They're basically saying "No anti-air off creep, bitch!". It's not like they're super-fast on creep either: Hydras and Queens are our slowest units. They're painfully slow off-creep, annoyingly slow with creep.
I think they should add some more creep mechanisms if they plan to keep it this way. Simple stuff like: - Give the Overseer a spell that allows it to spread creep for a few seconds, even while moving. It could spawn a quick creep road for flanking/retreating/dropping. - Make infestors/overlords/overseers spawn a patch of creep upon death. - Add an upgrade that increases the creep generation rate across the board. - Make the Lair spread creep much farther, and the Hive even farther, also increasing sight. Hive should basically be a Sensor Tower made of creep, then we'd have to tactically choose which Hatchery to upgrade. - Make Overlords spawn with their spread creep ability activated. There's no reason this should ever be off anyway.
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United Arab Emirates34 Posts
A zerg creep tumor should become permanent, if it's remained there for ~5 minutes without the enemy getting rid of it.
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I think the biggest problem is hydras. Every other zerg unit has a 30% increased speed on creep. Hydras have 50% and are compensated by a very slow base speed. Off-creep, hydras have the same speed as siege tanks.
It relegates hydras to almost a purely defensive unit that isn't used to attack until the very late game.
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spreading creep isnt free too, or do you really believe that overlords that are spreaded over the map stay alive the entire 1v1 match you play, and will not die to vikings or marines/stalkers/phoenixes?
get your facts straight
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Another suggestion might be that once the creep tumor is killed, it requires SCVs or Probes to actually scrape away the creep generated by tumors, removing a mineral patch size of creep in the same time it takes to mine minerals.
That way Zerg has a reward for creating tumors, The other races have a punisment for letting it happen, and the other races receive a reward for investing in using workers to clean up the mess (i.e. they reclaim their speed advantage in that area of the map)
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First thing I do as lair is get overlord speed, and spread creep around. As soon as lair hits, I already have my overlords in the spots where they need to be to get creep everywhere, and 1 creep tumour is enough to get your ramp choke creeped up.
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On August 18 2010 00:46 Kronologic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 00:40 Logo wrote:On August 18 2010 00:34 iNty.sCream wrote: lol its simply not an advantage because you have to spread it over the entire map. its not like pressing the stim key or press the blink key to teleport 50 stalkers 235 yards away in 1 second.. why there is so much ignorance flavor of the race much? Stim isn't free (to use or to research). Blink isn't free (it's potentially the most expensive as it demands a citadel to be built) and it's not clear what the resulting move speed of stalkers constantly using blink are. plus it only affects one unit, two if charge is also gotten. Yes but your missing the point. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race. That should be on and off creep. The speed advantage gained by spreading creep should be a Reward for investing the APM. Not a punishment for not doing it. I guess there is no analogies that I can make for the other races that really compares tbh.
Options? Rewards? Luxury? Punishment?
This is Starcraft, the game where people have to use every little thing at their disposal to maximize their chance to win. The game where building a spawning pool at 215 minerals instead of exactly at 200 is horrendously bad. The game where people will invest dozens and dozens of clicks just to have a marginally better chance at sniping an overlord with a marine.
There is no luxury or optional things. You're either doing something that increases your chances of winning, or your doing something that's decreasing it.
If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim.
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"If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim."
because this is the same to pull off. go back to disneyland
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On August 18 2010 01:00 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 00:46 Kronologic wrote:On August 18 2010 00:40 Logo wrote:On August 18 2010 00:34 iNty.sCream wrote: lol its simply not an advantage because you have to spread it over the entire map. its not like pressing the stim key or press the blink key to teleport 50 stalkers 235 yards away in 1 second.. why there is so much ignorance flavor of the race much? Stim isn't free (to use or to research). Blink isn't free (it's potentially the most expensive as it demands a citadel to be built) and it's not clear what the resulting move speed of stalkers constantly using blink are. plus it only affects one unit, two if charge is also gotten. Yes but your missing the point. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race. That should be on and off creep. The speed advantage gained by spreading creep should be a Reward for investing the APM. Not a punishment for not doing it. I guess there is no analogies that I can make for the other races that really compares tbh. Options? Rewards? Luxury? Punishment? This is Starcraft, the game where people have to use every little thing at their disposal to maximize their chance to win. The game where building a spawning pool at 215 minerals instead of exactly at 200 is horrendously bad. The game where people will invest dozens and dozens of clicks just to have a marginally better chance at sniping an overlord with a marine. There is no luxury or optional things. You're either doing something that increases your chances of winning, or your doing something that's decreasing it. If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim. So your 2 keyboard clicks early game + 1 extra click in battle is equal to the 4 clicks every 30 seconds Zerg have to make just to keep pace?
Your right, everything you can do to get an advantage should be done. But Thats exactly the point Spreading creep should give an advantage... Not just allow you to stay on a even keel. The majority (if not all) of Zerg units should be faster off creep than their terran and Toss counterparts. Thats the supposed strength of the Zerg Army its mobility. Without creep there is no mobility.
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For all those (numerous) people saying that zergs should just get better at spreading the creep, you are completely missing the entire point of the thread. The guy isnt just complaining about creep mindlessly, but instead, he is suggesting that the creep is somehow serving in a role it wasnt intended to: reducing general off-creep speed to balance the tremendous (but situational) on-creep speed.
For protoss, a similar complaint might be something like the general weakness of gateway units compared to their BW counterparts (probably at least partially) due to the new mobility afforded by the warpgates. However this isnt nearly as big an issue as creep since it seems to be working.
Anyways, Im a protoss player, so i dont have any experience with actually spreading creep or anything, but from a design perspective, something clearly needs to change.
What they should have done is make the creep speed less dramatic of an increase. Currently its like 30%. That really seems like a significant boost right? Not if the off-creep speed has to be nerfed to make that much of a bonus actually viable. If the boost were like 5-10%, it would be a much better situation as zerg could still have the same max speed (on creep), but with more speed off creep which would make it so much less of a disadvantage when leaving zerg territory. Its not even so much of a disadvantage as an advantage so advantageous that youd be crazy to not want to fight with it. Tone it down a bit, and it would probably improve the racial attributes while keeping the same overall effect.
Other ideas that i will include just for fun:
1) Creep does nothing. But with a spell on the queen, you can convert patches of creep that boost speed significantly. This might be an alternate solution since the entire creep is not a bonus and youd have to devote energy and time to getting this creep speed bonus. It would be great around each hatch, or between expos for fast defense. They could rework drones to get a mining boost from it but this is not necessary. It might also improve ZvZ since they dont benefit from each others creep, only "theirs" creating a defenders advantage.
2) Units with more active creep spreading
Right now youve got creep tumors (Slow) and overlords (slow vulnerable and temporary).
But imagine if a unit (say, roach) could spread creep as it attacks. This would be a very interesting mechanic that would gel well with zerglings/banelings as well as other roaches. It would provide great flanking opportunities and kiting would be minimized by the effects of the speed boost. Also, it would make it so you could bring up a queen right after a battle and instantly convert an entire area (that you just won) to creep.
Also, if banelings left creep on the ground after they died, how awesome would that be? Even in death they would have a purpose.
3) Alternate bonuses
One of the coolest ideas they had was to give the overseer the ability to create a spell that would block line of sight, just like those gas vents on Scrap station, or the brush on LT. If they found a way to add this, it would be really cool: you could place it in your creep and suddenly, they need an air unit to make an effective assault of your base. You can use it to hide tech from opponents, or just catch them off guard with a flank. Makes anti air units more useful as they now have a clear new role (if you maintain air superiority, you have a distinct advantage on home turf). Also makes burrow traps more easy.
Another idea is to give certain spells different effects on creep: ex, fungal growth does 20% more damage on creep. This idea is not very good tho since its not that intuitive and could be imbalanced.
4) The "Sprint" (lulz): throw down this bad boy creep tumor and fill a large-ish area with creep nearly instantly. Great for spawning in front of your army during an assault to give your units an edge quickly. Drawback? It also recedes quickly so take advantage of it while it lasts. Why is this could work? It makes creep more aggressive to fit the zerg style
Oh well.
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"Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right?
The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays)
Do you know how strong a good roach rush can be if for some reason you don't scout it? Even if you do, it requires that you immediately commit all of your resources to defense, and against an unprepared player will win fairly often.
If roaches moved faster off of creep, that rush would become nearly unstoppable. They would hit before your third gateway unit finishes, as normally this rush hits right after, and long before an immortal or void ray could finish.
Ling obviously have a speed upgrade, and there's no reason to argue about that because everyone can agree speed is almost a necessary upgrade for them.
If we made hydras faster off of creep, they would easily be able to kite a toss army or even a terran one before introduction of siege tanks into the mix (Seriously, have you ever tried to fight micro'd hydras on the creep in a midgame PvZ push? it's crazy! They can easily kite all your zealots and only lose 1 or 2 hydras unless you've pushed them right into the nat, and can also easily sniper stalkers and immortals.)
Basically i could go on and on through a list of why this would damage the MU's much more than it would help, but i think this should be example enough. With lings and fast unit production Zerg already can gain map control very easily. Regardless of what is said about Terran imbalance a Zerg can still maintain map control in that matchup too with intelligent infestor use, and I think infestors are extremely important to that MU and that when zergs start to use them more there will be much fewer shoulder-crying fests of "Terran imba!"
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hydras can kite you? you havent really heard of the ability called "force field" i believe.
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I like the idea of the hatch having 1 charge of spawning a creep tumour, it will give zerg the ability to begin the spread earlier, helping with the currently hellish early-game for zerg defence.
It is well-known how vulnerable zerg is earlyon, and this is contributed to by the inability to wall. This will also help that, as you will be able to have creep up to the choke from that early tumour
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the OP is correct. Creep is just about worthless at higher level games because good players will nullify it before they enter a battle. GG flanks and weakass zerglings
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
I don't play zerg, but I agree with this guy. Creep always gives away the zerg position. Creep shouldn't be implented the way it currently is, becuase it actually penalizes zerg for not having creep, when in actuality, creep should be penalizing the other races for being on creep.
Haven't you guys seen the videos? All the swarm attacking on ground and they moved super fast and they weren't on creep. As a matter of fact, I've never actually seen creep on any of the videos.
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I kinda agree with the OP. A lot of people are not understanding what he means. He's not saying that he can't spread creep effectively and thus not able to win games. He's saying that Zerg has lost some of its essence from the original SC. In BW, Zerg can dictate the base of the game. They were generally the faster race at expanding and the faster race on the ground. They may be fragile, but they can catch you off guard and flank you at any time of the game. May it be 3 hatch hydra bust or a fast lurkerling push on the front door.
Zerg just can't retreat as well anymore because you won't have creep at their front door 6 minutes into the game. That partially has to do with the mechanics of the game though. Not just the creep. Both Terran and Toss have something that prevents you from retreating the already slow zerg army early on in the game with marauders and sentries, and Zerg just can't break down walls well either (except for banelings). But in the end, you couldn't chase lings, you can't chase lurkers, you can't chase speed hydras as either T or P, but now you can chase everything but lings.
In the end, off creep zerg is part of the problem why the early aggressor roles have switched in SC2, but it's not the only problem.
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On August 18 2010 01:17 ghermination wrote: "Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right?
The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays)
Are you serious? 1 armor is ridiculous? You should compare roach speed(tier 1 without creep)/range and stalker speed/range and you should be able to do something before immortals or void rays (void ray seriously? ).
Anyway, if marauders are T1.5, roaches are 1.5 too -_-
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On August 17 2010 16:43 Alpina wrote: Yeah creep mechanic is very cool but it should be a bonus, not a necessity.
Looks like they just lowered speed of all zerg units and then added creep speed bonus so they can move normal.
I think the best solution to all of this is to make the creep bonus exactly that, a bonus. As it stands it's an an absolute necessity.
The base movespeeds of zerg units (excluding zerglings) are too slow. I think if the base movespeeds were increased and the creep bonus was lowered it would work out perfectly.
For example the roach moves at 2.25 base and with the speed upgrade it becomes 3.00. On creep the roach moves at 3.95. That's almost a whole 1.0 bonus movespeed on creep!!
I feel that the roach's movespeed with upgrade should be 3.4 or 3.5 with creep bonus being only 0.5 or 0.4. That way a roach can still move fast off creep but won't be ridiculously fast on creep because the total speed value would still be 3.95.
This desperately needs to apply to the hydralisk especially. Base speed is 2.25 with creep bonus being a gigantic 1.17!! This forces the hydralisk into an on-creep only role, ie. defensive unit and is limited in it's offensive/map control role and almost impossible to use for any sort of harassment as it's too slow to retreat once it's done it's damage.
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I think the funnest and unique zerg trait is creep. It doesn't need to be changed much, if at all. Perhaps increase unit's speed by 10% and reduce creep speed increase to 20%.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
I'd just want to say that roaches and marauders are on the same spot on the techtree.
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It would be funny if terran had to pave their roads with SCVs, and toss could only move around in pylon power and off the paved roads/pylons they were 30-50% slower. That would totally gimp any race. I'm glad they didn't put that in SC2. OH WAIT.
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I play both T and Z, when I play TvZ I get T is OP a lot when I win, and when I play Z I get Z is OP a lot too, its just much easier to blame your loss on imba than skill tbh.
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.
This isn't constructive, please think about your posts before you have a knee-jerk "Zerg is UP" reaction.
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Anyway, if marauders are T1.5, roaches are 1.5 too -_- Without a doubt. To get roaches you need Spawning Pool --> Roach Warren, which costs more and takes longer than Barracks --> Tech Lab. So If anything, Marauders are T1.25 while roaches are T1.5. Yes, I understand thats not a perfect picture, but you get the idea.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. Wow that sounds really awesome. Not sure how it would actually work out but it sounds like a good solution. It would have to be a very slight slow though because otherwise no one would ever cross the creep and just mass air or something like that.
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If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim.
Brb sniping off your stim with a scan forcing you to re-research it.
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On August 18 2010 01:09 Kronologic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 01:00 Logo wrote:On August 18 2010 00:46 Kronologic wrote:On August 18 2010 00:40 Logo wrote:On August 18 2010 00:34 iNty.sCream wrote: lol its simply not an advantage because you have to spread it over the entire map. its not like pressing the stim key or press the blink key to teleport 50 stalkers 235 yards away in 1 second.. why there is so much ignorance flavor of the race much? Stim isn't free (to use or to research). Blink isn't free (it's potentially the most expensive as it demands a citadel to be built) and it's not clear what the resulting move speed of stalkers constantly using blink are. plus it only affects one unit, two if charge is also gotten. Yes but your missing the point. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race. That should be on and off creep. The speed advantage gained by spreading creep should be a Reward for investing the APM. Not a punishment for not doing it. I guess there is no analogies that I can make for the other races that really compares tbh. Options? Rewards? Luxury? Punishment? This is Starcraft, the game where people have to use every little thing at their disposal to maximize their chance to win. The game where building a spawning pool at 215 minerals instead of exactly at 200 is horrendously bad. The game where people will invest dozens and dozens of clicks just to have a marginally better chance at sniping an overlord with a marine. There is no luxury or optional things. You're either doing something that increases your chances of winning, or your doing something that's decreasing it. If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim. So your 2 keyboard clicks early game + 1 extra click in battle is equal to the 4 clicks every 30 seconds Zerg have to make just to keep pace? Your right, everything you can do to get an advantage should be done. But Thats exactly the point Spreading creep should give an advantage... Not just allow you to stay on a even keel. The majority (if not all) of Zerg units should be faster off creep than their terran and Toss counterparts. Thats the supposed strength of the Zerg Army its mobility. Without creep there is no mobility.
That's just so ridiculous. If Zerg on creep = massive advantage auto-win then the game would be so insanely favored to zerg with their ability to play a defensive reactionary style. Look at the current situation. It's entirely possible to have the majority of fights occur on creep if you're willing to move out to defend the edges of your creep.
If the current mechanic of spreading creep is too APM intensive, then fine, but that's not what's being argued. There are much easier ways to attend to that issue. For example tumors could have 30s cooldown but a larger and faster rate of spreading creep. Still it's really not that intensive to get the creep to spread at a reasonable rate and if you want to make the argument that zerg is overloaded with APM requirements you'll need a more comprehensive analysis. It's true that there's a problem with say spawn larva needing attention IMMEDIATELY, but that doesn't apply to the tumors. You don't need to spread the tumors immediately every cooldown unless you're using a leading overlord to reach max range every 15s as the trade-off of putting a tumor immediately at 15s and waiting until the creep spreads more then placing it is relatively even.
I've never once found it difficult to get my creep spreading except possibly connecting the main - natural as early as I want it to be connected. The only time the creep spreading doesn't work out is when I can't defend the edge of my creep.
I find it really funny that it seems like everyone assumes I'm a Terran player lol.
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As an ~800 Diamond Zerg player, I'd just like to say that the only time I feel the creep mechanic is a significant problem is in situations of Hydras vs High Templar, off creep. If your army consists of a significant amount of Hydras and the Protoss player has a few HTs, you literally cannot engage them off creep as micro'ing against storm with off-creep Hydra speed is a ridiculous endeavor.
Other than that, I don't mind it so much. Roach speed early can be a bit irritating, but if you're going heavy roaches the speed upgrade is pretty much the first thing you'll pick up at Lair.
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Two good ideas in this thread though. The one were creep tumors gain a hp-boost after a certain amount of time, and just tweaking the on-speed bonus to be ~20% instead of 30%. Then you wouldn't have the strange case were you're very weak off creep, but creep is also easy to get rid off.
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That's just so ridiculous. If Zerg on creep = massive advantage auto-win then the game would be so insanely favored to zerg with their ability to play a defensive reactionary style. Look at the current situation. It's entirely possible to have the majority of fights occur on creep if you're willing to move out to defend the edges of your creep.
Well the problem with that is maybe the opponent's force is too powerful for the zerg player's to handle at that point, so the only thing the zerg can do is allow it to happen and just continue building up forces at his own base to counter the other player when the other player reaches his base. And then by the time the zerg player has enough forces to face his opponent the opponent will have already cleared the place of creep.
Personally, I dont think that the speed boost is the best thing the creep should do. The zerg's advantage is having the speed to outmaneuver his opponents. But the problem is this outmaneuvering is now dictated by where creep is and the speed at which creep expands. Therefore, at the end there isnt much outmaneuvering at all because, as previous posters mentioned, it is quite easy for the opponent to destroy creep tumors and by extension creep.
As for the idea that creep could punish the opponent by decreasing their speed. The problem with that is most protoss and terran units already have a longer range than zerg units and dont necessarily need to hurry into position to attack, whereas zerg having less range is more important for them to have the speed to get within range. Also, the fact that a smart player would simply have a detector with his force to destroy any creep tumors when he moves into a creep-ed area would negate this.
Instead, creep should probably just increase the health regen of zerg units. That way, zerg units wont be restricted by the creep as to where they should engage because of decreased speed. Creep spreading would still occur because the zerg would want to have more areas of the map that would 'heal' his units. And then the problem of the opponent whittling away the edges of the creep wont be so detrimental to the zerg because the areas closer to the bases will still have creep to allow for faster regen and they retain their speed to engage the enemy even when they're not on creep.
If creep changed from speed to regen though, the speed upgrades for zerg should give them more or less the current on creep speed to compensate for their current slowness off creep since this change would mean they wont be moving any faster on creep.
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The problem I have with creep spread is not the APM/Mechanic sink. I am perfectly fine with having to devote an extra 15apm into spreading creep tumors/overpoop.
The problem I have with creep spread, is that it is too easy to get rid of for the other races. First off, in early-mid game, you don't have a creep spread. Reapers/Hellions/2gates completely restrict your ability to spread creep until you stabilize. At most, you get to connect your two bases with tumors. This in itself is a defensive act. You gain absolutely no advantage, connecting the two bases is only to put yourself even and have a chance vs relentless early game pressure.
Once you get to tier 2, spreading creep becomes a bit easier. You can get an extra queen and use overlords to leap frog your creep tumors. However, at this point, I find myself committing more towards defending my creep tumors more than anything else. By the time you get to the middle of the map, protoss will have an obs and terran will have the ability to scan since they will most likely have two orbitals.
Now that late game arrives, it is damn near impossible to spread creep via tumors anywhere near your opponent. Most of the time, I find myself creating an abundance of overlords to counteract this. I typically will send in 4-5 overlords with every attack with creep-poop turned on so that it is more difficult to kite units like hydras and ultralisks. Basically every attack, I am committing 500 extra minerals just to utilize the supposed "zerg mobility" without running into supply issues.
The other issue is that zerg has two separate macro mechanics(larva and creep spread) they must use while protoss(chrono) and terran(Mule/Scan counts as one imo) have one. When you combine the two, you literally have very little time to actually maneuver your army around the map. You spend more time clicking around the mini-map than selecting actual units. I am a 150-200apm player.
I can not tell you how many games I have lost because a protoss just balls their army of stalker, collosus, and zealot with a obs leading so that the collosus can safely snipe tumors. While ultraling is good vs this unit comp, once creep is gone, it is extremely easy for a protoss to kite the ultras, which are the main damage dealers.
The more aggressive your enemy is, the harder it is to spread creep. Sometimes it leads to a slow death contain because you literally can't out maneuver your opponent, which is supposed to be zergs strength.
How do you fix it? Some ideas:
-Give creep tumors HP buff and maybe a huge armor buff? Maybe make it comparable to an egg/larva?
-Make the spread of a tumor larger so that units like the collosus can't attack tumors from a safe range
-Make creep speed less of a bonus. Up base speed of all zerg units to give them a bit more mobility off creep. It is literally impossible to retreat hydras off creep.
-Make tumors invulnerable to range/splash dmg.
For what its worth. I am a 600 diamond zerg player. I find that I lose the majority of my games because I feel I have no mobility advantage against terran/protoss. I almost always out macro my opponents, but this means nothing if I can be easily kited in/near their base where creep doesn't exist. There have been several instances where I have thought "If I had creep, I would have won this battle." Creep shouldn't have that large of an impact on fights.
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I find the creep mechanic to be fun and all, and i like the idea of spreading creep, however it is a task that takes time to build up, whereas it takes all but no time for the other guy to destroy. I can be very good about spreading creep but once a push comes a good player is just going to kill all the tumors on the way to my base.
Not only that, it more or less forces passive play. When most of my units are slow as hell off creep of course im not going to take them off just to poke around. Sure creep is mainly defensive, which i can accept, but when my units are handicapped off creep its not very enjoyable.
I like the suggestions of lowering creep bonus speed and increasing base speed to a more reasonable level. Creep should also offer passive regen bonuses.
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On August 18 2010 03:04 Siffer wrote: How do you fix it? Some ideas:
-Give creep tumors HP buff and maybe a huge armor buff? Maybe make it comparable to an egg/larva?
-Make the spread of a tumor larger so that units like the collosus can't attack tumors from a safe range
-Make creep speed less of a bonus. Up base speed of all zerg units to give them a bit more mobility off creep. It is literally impossible to retreat hydras off creep.
-Make tumors invulnerable to range/splash dmg.
For what its worth. I am a 600 diamond zerg player. I find that I lose the majority of my games because I feel I have no mobility advantage against terran/protoss. I almost always out macro my opponents, but this means nothing if I can be easily kited in/near their base where creep doesn't exist. There have been several instances where I have thought "If I had creep, I would have won this battle." Creep shouldn't have that large of an impact on fights.
See I think #1, #2, and #4 are much better solutions than #3 if there is a problem. The problem, if there is one, isn't with needing creep, it's with your ability to spread it around and defend it.
Another type of solution would be say if spawn larva was only 20 energy. Then every 3.33 minutes a properly controlled queen would have enough spare energy to spawn a tumor. It doesn't sound like much, but it would help to reduce the investment needed in getting creep spread about (it'd also open up a little room to use transfusion).
One of the problems with the queen is that unlike protoss/terran you can't save the energy for an emergency, then if that situation doesn't occur use it for the economic/production boost.
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On August 18 2010 01:17 ghermination wrote: "Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right?
The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays)
Do you know how strong a good roach rush can be if for some reason you don't scout it? Even if you do, it requires that you immediately commit all of your resources to defense, and against an unprepared player will win fairly often.
If roaches moved faster off of creep, that rush would become nearly unstoppable. They would hit before your third gateway unit finishes, as normally this rush hits right after, and long before an immortal or void ray could finish.
Ling obviously have a speed upgrade, and there's no reason to argue about that because everyone can agree speed is almost a necessary upgrade for them.
If we made hydras faster off of creep, they would easily be able to kite a toss army or even a terran one before introduction of siege tanks into the mix (Seriously, have you ever tried to fight micro'd hydras on the creep in a midgame PvZ push? it's crazy! They can easily kite all your zealots and only lose 1 or 2 hydras unless you've pushed them right into the nat, and can also easily sniper stalkers and immortals.)
Basically i could go on and on through a list of why this would damage the MU's much more than it would help, but i think this should be example enough. With lings and fast unit production Zerg already can gain map control very easily. Regardless of what is said about Terran imbalance a Zerg can still maintain map control in that matchup too with intelligent infestor use, and I think infestors are extremely important to that MU and that when zergs start to use them more there will be much fewer shoulder-crying fests of "Terran imba!"
Please go on.
First off, Roaches are Tier 1.5. They have their own building that costs 150 minerals. Heard of it? It's called the Roach Warren. It takes about 55 seconds to morph in, which is 30 less seconds than it takes to get a Tech Lab on your 'rax, leaving you ample time to get out a Marauder, and start one of the best and most powerful upgrades in the game, the Concussive Shell. By the time the first wave hits (6-7 Roaches, depending on inject and warren timing), you should have at the very least 3 Marauders (more if you have additional raxes, or a factory on the way), at least one marine, and many SCVs to repair the wall that Zerg can't get through anyway.
As far as Protoss goes, they better be getting Stalkers at some point in their game, and most assuredly should have it before a one base roach build hits (unless they are doing a forge FE, which they should be punished for). They have many options when it comes to denying roaches. They have Stalkers that deal 14 damage a shot and can kite the Roaches, they have a Sentry that can Force Field the ramp, allowing both the Stalkers and Sentries behind the Force Field free reign to dismember Roaches risk free for 15 seconds. In the time that the Roaches come across the map (except steppes), you have at least 1 production cycle of additional units to deal with it.
Fun fact: If you don't scout your opponent, anything can be hard to stop. Commit to defense, huh? Reactored Hellions need a lot of attention, otherwise your mineral line gets decimated. Even if you scout them, you're SOL because your Spine Crawlers won't finish in time. If you don't have lots of Speedlings or a fair amount of Roaches out, you might be in serious trouble.
What if a Toss player 2gates you? GL stopping 5 Zealots without Roaches or Spines).
How many Zerg players you know tech up to tier 2.5 (remember, pool, lair, hydra den, combines for a whopping 185 seconds straight (plus gas and all that jazz) before Terrans get out a factory? With continuous production it'll take 150 seconds (if you build the tech lab on the rax and swap, then it'll be 125)
Spawning a wave of hydras (assume, laughably, that you can afford 6 after den) takes 33 seconds. A tank takes 50. Siege mode, which again, will allow you to sit behind your wall, takes 80 seconds. Hydras won't make it over there in the 30 second window that you have before siege tech comes. Even if they do, just repair the wall and wait it out. Hydras are prohibitively expensive, and if the Zerg player is on 2 bases, the push may be stronger, but it will be delayed significantly, allowing multiple tanks to pulverize the Zerg offensive.
Ever heard of Charge or Force Field for those 'mid-game' pushes?
I'd love to hear the rest of your dissertation, and agree that Infestor usage can help a Zerg player, but I'm not certain that it's as dramatic as you seem to think. What can the Infestor do? NP for 2 seconds before getting shelled by a Tank? Force the Zerg player to have 10 of them to get all of the high ticket mech units at once? Fungal? (how many Fungals will it take to kill a Thor?) Infested Terrans? Only if you have, and can get away with, using the burrow-cast to break siege lines with the spawning ITs, which is a waste of gas once the inevitable scan hits.
And do you truly believe that a Terran cares about Infestors when going mech? Sensor Towers, Missile Turrets, and blanket coverage with Tanks allow the terran to sit worry free in his base until he hits 125+ food and is ready to annihilate your 200 food Zerg army.
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On August 18 2010 03:33 JHancho wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 01:17 ghermination wrote: "Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right?
The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays)
Do you know how strong a good roach rush can be if for some reason you don't scout it? Even if you do, it requires that you immediately commit all of your resources to defense, and against an unprepared player will win fairly often.
If roaches moved faster off of creep, that rush would become nearly unstoppable. They would hit before your third gateway unit finishes, as normally this rush hits right after, and long before an immortal or void ray could finish.
Ling obviously have a speed upgrade, and there's no reason to argue about that because everyone can agree speed is almost a necessary upgrade for them.
If we made hydras faster off of creep, they would easily be able to kite a toss army or even a terran one before introduction of siege tanks into the mix (Seriously, have you ever tried to fight micro'd hydras on the creep in a midgame PvZ push? it's crazy! They can easily kite all your zealots and only lose 1 or 2 hydras unless you've pushed them right into the nat, and can also easily sniper stalkers and immortals.)
Basically i could go on and on through a list of why this would damage the MU's much more than it would help, but i think this should be example enough. With lings and fast unit production Zerg already can gain map control very easily. Regardless of what is said about Terran imbalance a Zerg can still maintain map control in that matchup too with intelligent infestor use, and I think infestors are extremely important to that MU and that when zergs start to use them more there will be much fewer shoulder-crying fests of "Terran imba!" Please go on. First off, Roaches are Tier 1.5. They have their own building that costs 150 minerals. Heard of it? It's called the Roach Warren. It takes about 55 seconds to morph in, which is 30 less seconds than it takes to get a Tech Lab on your 'rax, leaving you ample time to get out a Marauder, and start one of the best and most powerful upgrades in the game, the Concussive Shell. By the time the first wave hits (6-7 Roaches, depending on inject and warren timing), you should have at the very least 3 Marauders (more if you have additional raxes, or a factory on the way), at least one marine, and many SCVs to repair the wall that Zerg can't get through anyway. As far as Protoss goes, they better be getting Stalkers at some point in their game, and most assuredly should have it before a one base roach build hits (unless they are doing a forge FE, which they should be punished for). They have many options when it comes to denying roaches. They have Stalkers that deal 14 damage a shot and can kite the Roaches, they have a Sentry that can Force Field the ramp, allowing both the Stalkers and Sentries behind the Force Field free reign to dismember Roaches risk free for 15 seconds. In the time that the Roaches come across the map (except steppes), you have at least 1 production cycle of additional units to deal with it. Fun fact: If you don't scout your opponent, anything can be hard to stop. Commit to defense, huh? Reactored Hellions need a lot of attention, otherwise your mineral line gets decimated. Even if you scout them, you're SOL because your Spine Crawlers won't finish in time. If you don't have lots of Speedlings or a fair amount of Roaches out, you might be in serious trouble. What if a Toss player 2gates you? GL stopping 5 Zealots without Roaches or Spines). How many Zerg players you know tech up to tier 2.5 (remember, pool, lair, hydra den, combines for a whopping 185 seconds straight (plus gas and all that jazz) before Terrans get out a factory? With continuous production it'll take 150 seconds (if you build the tech lab on the rax and swap, then it'll be 125) Spawning a wave of hydras (assume, laughably, that you can afford 6 after den) takes 33 seconds. A tank takes 50. Siege mode, which again, will allow you to sit behind your wall, takes 80 seconds. Hydras won't make it over there in the 30 second window that you have before siege tech comes. Even if they do, just repair the wall and wait it out. Hydras are prohibitively expensive, and if the Zerg player is on 2 bases, the push may be stronger, but it will be delayed significantly, allowing multiple tanks to pulverize the Zerg offensive. Ever heard of Charge or Force Field for those 'mid-game' pushes? I'd love to hear the rest of your dissertation, and agree that Infestor usage can help a Zerg player, but I'm not certain that it's as dramatic as you seem to think. What can the Infestor do? NP for 2 seconds before getting shelled by a Tank? Force the Zerg player to have 10 of them to get all of the high ticket mech units at once? Fungal? (how many Fungals will it take to kill a Thor?) Infested Terrans? Only if you have, and can get away with, using the burrow-cast to break siege lines with the spawning ITs, which is a waste of gas once the inevitable scan hits. And do you truly believe that a Terran cares about Infestors when going mech? Sensor Towers, Missile Turrets, and blanket coverage with Tanks allow the terran to sit worry free in his base until he hits 125+ food and is ready to annihilate your 200 food Zerg army.
Nice post. Agreed.
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I agree with everything but what can we do.. I've actually been experimenting with a new strategy. It will either be glorious or hilarious. Either way it will be epic. If it works it will change the very way we think about zerg play and it will usher in a new generation of symbiotic zerg warfare. I'll keep you all posted.
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I like the idea of spreading creep, but I wish it provided a small hp regen bonus, some type of slower movement for the other races. The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread. Almost every decent player kills any tumors as they move towards your base. It takes far less time to kill it off, than it does to lay.
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On August 18 2010 01:13 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
Also, if banelings left creep on the ground after they died, how awesome would that be? Even in death they would have a purpose.
First, awesome name. Second, even more awesome idea, that would be such a cool change.
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I agree about the creep. I think it was Blizzard's intention to give Zerg a boost on the creep aka an advantage.
What they did though, accidentally, was give Zerg a huge disadvantage off the creep. And Terran and Protoss players, saying "spread creep, then", have no idea how difficult and frustrating it can be. And in the end, it's useless anyway since any protoss/terran ball will be carrying an observers or raven.
Also, it's not easy to spread creep into where the opponent is already waiting and when you go on the offensive it's just not possible to always have creep down.
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A big problem is that creep spreading doesn't give you a threat, it is actually very passive. Its most effective use is to connect your expos so that you can actually defend. Using creep to create an offensive threat is impossible. It doesn't work. It doesn't make sense to try.
So while Terran and Protoss have so many ways to create threats, Zerg is preoccupied with a mechanic that they must constantly manage to create a passive equalizer. It's not even an advantage on defense! And it creates virtually no threat offensively.
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This is a totally soft comment and not meant to be taken seriously but I feel like on the race design and macros, it's like, the Zerg need their macros to just be up to par. If you're not spreading creep or hitting spawn larvae on the dime you have a negative handicap. Where, the Terran and Protoss macros actually make them over par-- do this faster-- free money.
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On August 18 2010 09:44 socjones wrote: This is a totally soft comment and not meant to be taken seriously but I feel like on the race design and macros, it's like, the Zerg need their macros to just be up to par. If you're not spreading creep or hitting spawn larvae on the dime you have a negative handicap. Where, the Terran and Protoss macros actually make them over par-- do this faster-- free money.
Regardless of actual balance I think Zerg is probably the least forgiving of players making mistakes. I think thats the most frustrating part of it. Even if everything is perfectly balanced playing Zerg is a high-wire act. Even ZvZ where a single baneling can determine the game.
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On August 18 2010 04:46 Tickmint wrote: The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread. lol, no offense but that is the worst suggestion I have heard regarding possible zerg changes to date. Invincible tumors (i.e. no way to remove creep) would be auto-win for zerg.
1) Get 1 overlord + queen, lay a tumor at every expo on the map = Terrans/Protoss can no longer expo.
2) While the player is distracted elsewhere, lay a tumor in his base (or just advance tumors into his base) = Terrans/Protoss can no longer build anything in their main.
Yeah, that doesn't sound broken at all...
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On August 18 2010 09:55 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 09:44 socjones wrote: This is a totally soft comment and not meant to be taken seriously but I feel like on the race design and macros, it's like, the Zerg need their macros to just be up to par. If you're not spreading creep or hitting spawn larvae on the dime you have a negative handicap. Where, the Terran and Protoss macros actually make them over par-- do this faster-- free money. Regardless of actual balance I think Zerg is probably the least forgiving of players making mistakes. I think thats the most frustrating part of it. Even if everything is perfectly balanced playing Zerg is a high-wire act. Even ZvZ where a single baneling can determine the game.
The other frustration part is that Zergs often have to make decisions before their opponent. You throw down an expansion, pool, or gas, before he has to throw down his 2nd gate for example. There are a lot of times where the opponent can confirm then build while Zerg often has to build then confirm.
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Creep is amazing. I dont want it changed.
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Regardless of actual balance I think Zerg is probably the least forgiving of players making mistakes. I think thats the most frustrating part of it. Even if everything is perfectly balanced playing Zerg is a high-wire act. Even ZvZ where a single baneling can determine the game.
I don't think we should be ok with this. It kills Zerg play at all levels if we just designate Z as the harder race and say oh that's ok. Why would anyone go into a tournament playing a race that's admittedly harder to play as?
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Make creep from tumours spread WAAAY faster and have no cooldown.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
at first glance this sounds brilliant
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On August 18 2010 10:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 04:46 Tickmint wrote: The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread. lol, no offense but that is the worst suggestion I have heard regarding possible zerg changes to date. Invincible tumors (i.e. no way to remove creep) would be auto-win for zerg. 1) Get 1 overlord + queen, lay a tumor at every expo on the map = Terrans/Protoss can no longer expo. 2) While the player is distracted elsewhere, lay a tumor in his base (or just advance tumors into his base) = Terrans/Protoss can no longer build anything in their main. Yeah, that doesn't sound broken at all... no offense, but thats the worst suggestion i have heard regarding zerg ability to spread creep and other race ability to make it not happen..
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i wish you could spread creep offensively for mounting attacks. like, be able to "call down" creep tumors like zerg can do in the campaign. that way zerg doesn't have to be really defensive in the early game.
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IMO little changes could be just exactly what Z needs.
For example, make OL's creep poop hatchery level.
To me this is pretty uncontroversial and it does big things for Zerg. Z could take ramps at the early game. It puts broodlings a little more back in play. It gives Zerg macro a little breathing room by getting OL's situated during T1 when the pace is picking up, at T2 you're two basing most the time and dealing with harassment So spreading OLs kinda get lost in the mix especially at the lower levels.
In a big picture this just feels more zerg with a, perfect execution, design conception of OL's dropping creep at the fringes followed by creep tumors as the base actually grows.
And it's just a T1 buff so by the time T2 roles about you're at exactly the same point you would have been.
****
I also think something like lowering spawn larvae time would help. Assuming 1 queen per hatch 45 seconds corresponds almost perfectly to generating 25 energy.
If spawn larvae was, say, 40 or 35 seconds you could begin to compensate for a missed rotation since consequtive perfect spawns would eat that energy down--- conceptually like spamming mules or chrono boosts except still a little tighter.
And again something like this would give zerg a little more breathing room by:
1. one basing is a little more functional since a hatch can output larvae faster. 2. the balance between droning and units would be a little more navigable 3. I would still hazard the output of several hatches with a reduced spawn time would be nearly comparable to terrans producing from reactored production buildings and Toss running 4+ warpgates like they do mid to late game.
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On August 18 2010 10:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 04:46 Tickmint wrote: The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread. lol, no offense but that is the worst suggestion I have heard regarding possible zerg changes to date. Invincible tumors (i.e. no way to remove creep) would be auto-win for zerg. 1) Get 1 overlord + queen, lay a tumor at every expo on the map = Terrans/Protoss can no longer expo. 2) While the player is distracted elsewhere, lay a tumor in his base (or just advance tumors into his base) = Terrans/Protoss can no longer build anything in their main. Yeah, that doesn't sound broken at all... lol that would be hilarious. That would actually make Zerg a bit more OP than terran.
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I personally think hydras could be faster off creep, or simply have an upgrade for speed like BW.
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Anyone else remember in Brood War how the lurker was pretty much faster than any ground unit other than vultures/lings? Lurker flanks ruled.
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You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
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On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote: You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
oh wait i see what ur saying well i assumed zerg would be given a speed boost off creep if they were to do that
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On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote: You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
It's not the same because at the moment they are giving you an effect that has an emphasis on offensive positioning (attacking your opponent) on the side of the map where you already have control (defensive positioning). Don't get me wrong, having faster units while on the defensive is still an advantage but you receive a greater benefit from faster units while attacking your opponent on their side of the map. After all, you can't win the game by being on the defensive, eventually you are going to have to push to their side of the map.
Having slower enemy units on your side of the map would align the positioning of your troops with the mechanic to cause a better synergy. You receive the benefit from the mechanic on your side of the map (defensive positioning) and the mechanic (enemy being slow in your territory) strictly has a defensive emphasis (slowing down the enemy as they try to push into where you have map control).
The problem I see with the idea is, I think slowing down your enemy would cause a dumbing down of micro. Faster units encourage micro while slower units leave less chances to micro (in the vain of your units being kited by marauders making micro impossible). However I could see this encouraging different types of micro by placing more emphasis on people using things like stim, blink, and dropship play to overcome the disadvantage (possibly moving while burrowed could be unaffected to allow for more opportunities to utilize it in zvz).
I think, as always, a compromise would be the best solution so we don't take away from the player's micro by having their entire army slowed. We could find a middle ground where we lessen the effect of the current creep mechanic by 50% and then to compensate, we would add the slowing mechanic but match the percentage of effectiveness with the current mechanic, essentially meeting half way.
Any thoughts?
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On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote: You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
I dont personally feel that would be the case on the assumption Zergs off creep speed is buffed to be the same as its current oncreep speed. I think it will become a case of You'd want to fight on the creep that's obvious. But you no longer Need to fight on the creep. And because your units would work better off creep you'd find Zerg were generally more aggressive.
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On August 18 2010 11:18 Kronologic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote: You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep. I dont personally feel that would be the case on the assumption Zergs off creep speed is buffed to be the same as its current oncreep speed. I think it will become a case of You'd want to fight on the creep that's obvious. But you no longer Need to fight on the creep. And because your units would work better off creep you'd find Zerg were generally more aggressive.
this man speaketh the truth. though offcreep isnt that bad, roach and hydra could maybe use a speedbuff off creep regardless.
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Many people on this thread have missed the point. The point is NOT that creep is difficult to use and is under-compensated by its mere speed boosting effects. Nor is it saying that Zerg sucks because they are slow off creep.
On August 17 2010 16:03 justinsroy wrote: Personally, its like saying "protoss dont have warpgates early on".
Solution produce an extra queen and spread creep earlier. 150 minerals and start spreading the tumors if the off creep speed is bugging you that much.
I see where you are coming from, the mobility of the units are quite slow off creep. But the fact of the matter is that most early units (Roach/zergling) have upgrades to increase their speed.
This is totally out of point.
The problem is not any of those, but the over-dependence of Zerg mobility on creep. You cannot solve the problem of over-dependence by things like speed upgrades and more queens to spread more creep. This is because those solutions don't solve the problem of over-dependence, they just fulfill the requirements for having more mobility. Over-dependence on creep for mobility cannot be solved by having more creep. Even if you have more creep, it doesn't make you immune to areas which have no creep. Therefore the over-dependence stays.
Creep is supposed to be a BOOST or an ADVANTAGE to Zerg but now it seems more like a REQUIREMENT for Zerg armies. Especially with Hydralisks, which in my opinion is one of the most commonly used units in Zerg matchups, they are severely underpowered when they are not on creep. I am not saying that creep does not help, but I am saying that this help is rather futile. They should be STRONGER on creep, not just strong. They should already be strong without creep. Creep should just makes them better than they already are.
Meaning, Zerg units should have higher movement speed inherently. Not by means of creep. Creep should give certain bonuses and advantages to the Zerg army while fighting on it, but it shouldn't become an absolute need.
The second point he made was that creep gave intelligence to the enemy unnecessarily. While I do believe this is true, I don't think of it as a really big problem. This is a little like the sensor tower. Blind intelligence such as these provides depth in psychological warfare. Similar to tricking your enemy using bogey units or fake expansions signs when they throw a sensor tower down, proxying creep can be a very powerful psychological tool to use against your opponent. For example, spreading creep using an overlord at the choke of an empty expansion to let him think you have taken it, then backdooring his base when he tries to push in the empty space. Or purposely spreading creep directly from your base to a possible expansion, then flanking him from another side.
On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
This is a great idea. It remains to provide advantage for Zerg on creep while not totally destroying their mobility off creep.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
yeah there would be.. the game would be balanced around your enemies being slowed on creep lol.
by that same token, you can say that units move the right speed without creep, and move faster as an advantage on creep, so you don't have to spread it.
aka: don't be bad, spread it.
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On August 18 2010 11:28 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. yeah there would be.. the game would be balanced around your enemies being slowed on creep lol. by that same token, you can say that units move the right speed without creep, and move faster as an advantage on creep, so you don't have to spread it. aka: don't be bad, spread it.
Right, what they are suggesting would be a double buff because you are increasing your units speed as well as creating a new mechanic to slow your opponents speed on creep. That's why I'm suggesting doing 50% percent of both mechanics so you get the best of both worlds, each being only half as effective as the current mechanic
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the mechanic is fine lol. Quit trying to find stuff that's wrong with the game and just play. Lol
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besides hydras it doesn't bother me that much. would like to see hydras get an off-creep speed bonus tier 3. otherwise, think about it this way - speedlings and mutas are still perfectly reasonable off-creep ambush units, and the gas that would've gone towards hydra speed in BW now goes to roach speed which makes roaches quite a bit faster. at the cost of changing the hydra's role to be more defensive.
as for the 'line in the sand' issue, that's a good point, and might be a good argument for tier 3 hydra speed, but other than that it's a good mechanic and a strong motivation for terran to waste scans.
also i seriously doubt they'll change the mechanic fundamentally. maybe some stats but nothing like exchanging the speed bonus entirely. might as well get used to it.
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Yeah, Blizzard was supposed to make creep a bonus to help zerg, but now, its a must-need to attack and this is also why zerg is so bad at early game because of the lack of speed. This is like larvae injection, because if u don't do it, u will probably lose.
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I don't really think the OP is complaining about having to spread creep.
I agree; I personally think it would make more sense for enemy units to slow down in creep. Think about it. This shit nourishes the Zerg buildings, and takes forever to disappear (at least, the creep from the Hatchery takes forever). Creep has to be fucking thick. For Terrans and Protoss who aren't used to walking in it, it makes sense that they'd be slowed by it.
Now, I like the fact that creep does something. It's great that you have a different reason to spread it than simply to be able to have room for new buildings. But I think that a speed boost for Zerg perhaps wasn't the best idea.
Spreading the creep feels very Zerg. Feeling confined to it because of the lack of speed off creep doesn't.
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On August 18 2010 11:39 Tazza wrote: Yeah, Blizzard was supposed to make creep a bonus to help zerg, but now, its a must-need to attack and this is also why zerg is so bad at early game because of the lack of speed. This is like larvae injection, because if u don't do it, u will probably lose. I think this sums it up well, creep is not a bonus, it is needed.
The question is, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Is this balanced?
Are warpgates a bonus to protoss, or are they needed?
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Maybe if they changed it so all buildings can spread creep? like... tech structures would still need to be placed on creep, but after they were built the creep would expand in a radius around the building. It would still be dangerous to build buildings in the middle of nowhere, but this would certainly help bridge the gap between your main and your natural quickly early game.
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The balance issue of the Zerg is stemming from the 'swarmy' philosophy Blizzard has placed on the race for Starcraft 2. I think the creep complaint is responding to this problematic 'swarmy' attitude Blizzard is placing on the Zerg, but you are addressing the wrong symptom. The creep really isn't the issue; it is the units or lack of them.
When someone plays Starcraft 2, the objective is to beat the opponent, and the race is like a toolbox full of different units (tools) to achieve this end. Terran appears overpowered because it is the race with the most options, it has the biggest toolbox. Terran has the widest range of units to use so, therefore, they have the greatest power to shape and form battles and the flow of the game. Additionally, the 'larger toolbox' multiplies synergy among the different units and various unit combinations. If a race has a 'smaller toolbox', there are much less multipliers of synergy as there are less unit combinations possible.
The fix to the Zerg is as simple as increasing their toolbox, increasing the range of options the Zerg player has. This doesn't necessarily mean "add more units" but to allow existing units to have more dimensions of play. The reason why Zerg units are so... two-dimensional is because Zerg was designed to be 'swarmy' which means to mass a ton of units and attack move. Increasing the toolbox for Zerg won't change this part of the Zerg but allow Zerg to be able to respond and force other players to do different things. It will also make Z vs. Z match-ups far more interesting (whose current not-fun status is caused by two 'small toolbox' players going at each other).
Here are some examples I was thinking of that would be simple 'tweaks' that would grow the Zerg option 'toolbox' considerably:
-Remove lair requirement for Overlord creep. This would allow Zerg to be able to block their ramps and chokepoints with evolution dens placed under pooping Overlords at the start of the game. Zerg is the only race that cannot block off its choke. It is because of this that many maps are imbalanced against Zerg. This would also allow Zerg to place an overlord and spine crawler in an offensive way to non-Zerg races. If Protoss can offensive cannon and Terran can offensive bunker, why can't Zerg offensive spine crawler? It would take some micro because you would require the overlord (and be risky because you don't want to lose your first overlord).
-Allow spine and spore crawlers to be transported by overlord. This change would increase the mobility of Zerg to allow them to place their crawlers on ledges. They could also place them on ledges near their enemy. Keep in mind there must be an overlord making creep for the crawlers to 'settle'. If the enemy used anti-air to destroy the pooping overlord, the offensive spine crawler will eventually whither and die. Protoss and Terran can easily plop down missile turrets, bunkers, and cannons on ledges, why can't Zerg? Fear not about Zerg plopping spine crawlers in an enemy's mineral line as it takes soooo long for the crawlers to 'settle' into the ground (more than enough time to blow them up).
-Remove lair requirement for overlord upgrades. Zerg has the slowest dropship in the game. In order to get such a overlord ship, Zerg must do two upgrades (who is going to use an overlord shipping units without speed?). Removing the lair requirement would not make instant Zerg dropships because two upgrades still must be researched. This would allow Zerg to better control their ledges against Terrans and their dreaded medivacs. It would also allow Zerg not easily be contained (overlords are riskier than a warp prism or medivac since Zerg's supply is hit when an overlord dies especially in early game).
-Add a new dimension to the corrupter. I hate the corrupter. The other races' anti-air flyers are very interesting and very fun to play with. The Terran Viking is fun to transform. The Protoss Phoenix is fun to weave around, shoot stuff, and use graviton beam to pick stuff up. The Zerg Corrupter is just boring, boring, boring. It's ability is 'corruption'. Ooohhh! How dull. It is nothing compared to the graviton beam or transforming. Can we give an additional dimension to corruption? How about make it slow units down (clearly wouldn't affect harvestors). This would allow Zerg to want to make corruptor, even if there is no air threat, just to use its slow ability every now and then to help out in battles or to slow retreating enemy forces. It could also make Terran mech even more immobile.
I agree with the OP that creep is making Zerg immobile, but I don't think the fault is creep so much as the units themselves. And the fault of the units is that Zerg has very limited options, a very limited 'toolbox', especially in early-game. If Zerg are given more options, the race will be less 'samey' when played, and Zerg will have more tools to combat other races (and Z vs. Z will become more exciting).
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 11:42 rockon1215 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 11:39 Tazza wrote: Yeah, Blizzard was supposed to make creep a bonus to help zerg, but now, its a must-need to attack and this is also why zerg is so bad at early game because of the lack of speed. This is like larvae injection, because if u don't do it, u will probably lose. I think this sums it up well, creep is not a bonus, it is needed. The question is, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Is this balanced? Are warpgates a bonus to protoss, or are they needed? I don't think you can really classify either as a "bonus". A bonus implies you have some baseline to compare them to, and the races are all different enough that you don't have such a baseline to work with.
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Changing creep to slow down the enemy will only force players to frequently go air against Zerg and use drop ships to attack. It will change the enemy's behavior, but the imbalance will remain.
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On August 18 2010 11:39 Tazza wrote: Yeah, Blizzard was supposed to make creep a bonus to help zerg, but now, its a must-need to attack and this is also why zerg is so bad at early game because of the lack of speed. This is like larvae injection, because if u don't do it, u will probably lose.
The creep mechanic is not of benefit to zerg until late game, and even then it's not much of a benefit. At the beginning, when you don't have creep all over the map is when you need it most, but then when you finally have creep all over the map it doesn't matter. Battles are huge and the added mobility doesn't allow you to squeeze your ultras and lings through a chokepoint any easier. Frankly, most of the maps in play aren't even open enough to handle robust Zerg ground armies...
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I've talked with the OP about this many a time, and to reiterate: he does not really have a problem spreading the creep. This is not a discussion about balance (well, not directly), it's about how the zerg army works.
The suggestion that creep slows down the opposing units, in the end, makes the game work exactly the same. Personally, I would like off-cpeed creep to be increased to on-speed creep (or lower), and have creep provide increased HP regeneration, making creep spreading vital, but giving more tools ot the zerg early game.
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I think that the creep mechanic is too powerful to allow it to negatively affect your opponent. However, I do feel that the creep mechanic is harming the Zerg. Zerg units are just too darn slow (in general) off creep and that's really hurting Zerg play. You can no longer poke into your opponents bases or just simply retreat to fight another day. You will be chased down and you will be killed. This wouldn't really be an issue except that non-Zerg players are learning to creep clear and as the player base develops, creep clearing will be a very basic part of playing XvZ, the same way mine clearing was in BW.
However, the problem is quite complex. You can't simply just buff Zerg unit speed because then on creep, they'll be too ridiculously fast, or the difference between on-creep and off-creep speed would be so small spreading creep is a pointless waste of APM in most cases. However, removal of the creep mechanic would be sacrificing what could potentially be a very interesting and positive mechanic for the game.
The reason why I do not feel that slowing opposing units that are on creep is a good idea, and why it's not "exactly the same," is because slower moving units is BAD for micro. It's kinda like how marauder's concussive shells were so OP beginning of beta because there was literally no way to micro your way out of it. Once you're caught, you're dead. The nerf to conc. shells gave some wiggle room. Creep should, imo, do nothing to opposing units and only serve as a buff to Zerg.
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On August 18 2010 13:32 Ryuu314 wrote: I think that the creep mechanic is too powerful to allow it to negatively affect your opponent. However, I do feel that the creep mechanic is harming the Zerg. Zerg units are just too darn slow (in general) off creep and that's really hurting Zerg play. You can no longer poke into your opponents bases or just simply retreat to fight another day. You will be chased down and you will be killed. This wouldn't really be an issue except that non-Zerg players are learning to creep clear and as the player base develops, creep clearing will be a very basic part of playing XvZ, the same way mine clearing was in BW.
However, the problem is quite complex. You can't simply just buff Zerg unit speed because then on creep, they'll be too ridiculously fast, or the difference between on-creep and off-creep speed would be so small spreading creep is a pointless waste of APM in most cases. However, removal of the creep mechanic would be sacrificing what could potentially be a very interesting and positive mechanic for the game.
The reason why I do not feel that slowing opposing units that are on creep is a good idea, and why it's not "exactly the same," is because slower moving units is BAD for micro. It's kinda like how marauder's concussive shells were so OP beginning of beta because there was literally no way to micro your way out of it. Once you're caught, you're dead. The nerf to conc. shells gave some wiggle room. Creep should, imo, do nothing to opposing units and only serve as a buff to Zerg.
I don't think anyone wants zerg to get even faster on creep. Having the speed difference between off-creep and on-creep actually is the best solution. Just as chrono boosting requires extra apm to get your units out a little faster but not instantly, why not have creep require extra apm to get a small speed boost while not giving instant-teleportation like speed.
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It's hard to flank anything if you arn't using speedlings. And speedlings are generally worthless since things ball so tightly when they move out that you only get the surface area to fight on and half the lings are just running back and forth outside the ball trying to find a piece of recently vacated (by another dead ling) surface area.
The only thing I started doing that seems to sort of work is to engage with my main army, suicide speedlings at them to buy time for my army to pull back. Unfortunately, it doesn't work when I am attacking, because the map designs makes it hard to get lings behind them or around them anyways.
On August 18 2010 02:23 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. This isn't constructive, please think about your posts before you have a knee-jerk "Zerg is UP" reaction.
This isn't a constructive post either. Please think about your posts before you have a knee-jerk reaction to another. If it was really that bad, the mods here would have warned him about it.
Atleast his post gives me another person's perspective on the game...
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The biggest problem with creep is that we are now seing that Terran and Protoss can wipe ut creep that you have spent 15 minutes on deploying in one minute.
Tumors are going to need buffs in a few months.
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On August 18 2010 16:35 Ghad wrote: The biggest problem with creep is that we are now seing that Terran and Protoss can wipe ut creep that you have spent 15 minutes on deploying in one minute.
Tumors are going to need buffs in a few months.
You aren´t supposed to use Tumors for offensive creeping. You get Overlords or Nyduses for that, Tumors are for securing Map control which you have to "earn". Tumors might need a buff but they don´t need to be able to creep the map. They need to be able to creep YOUR portion of the map, as indicated by the fact that you can defend them.
It´s fine if Zerg "need" creep (I actually don´t think that they are absolutely crippled off it). If anything they may need better options to spread it TEMPORARILY.
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On August 17 2010 16:35 purerythem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10? QFT
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I posted a creep change I would've loved to see implemented in another thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6030351
Creep mechanic changed. All Zerg units now gain half of the creep moving speed INNATELY. The other half still remains with an added effect of increased health regen while on creep and out of combat. This will make Z still want to spread their creep as far as possible and the other races want to remove it, but it won't punish Z so badly without it. Without the creep, they're as fast as anybody else, but with it, they become most mobile of all races, which is one of their strengths. Also, the health regen will be an added incentive to spread creep but won't balance fights during actual combat.
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Straight up I agree with the OP on the fact that the extra speed on creep mechanic has basically crippled Zerg off creep, an unfortunate side affect.
They can't buff the base speed of various zerg units out of fear that they'll simply be too fast while on creep, but the problem can be easily sidestepped with upgrades. You can give hydras for example a speed upgrade just like in BW that does not stack with the creep bonus or if it does, it will to a lesser degree.
Also to the earlier people in this thread who claim that creep is just for speed, that's hardly just the case. Creep also gives you map control and vision. Other races cannot expo there while there is creep and the vision creep provides is critical.
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Therefore remove the speed boost whilst on creep if you are afraid they get too fast. Change it to possibly a higher hp regen rate or some sort of disadvantage to the enemy.
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Reposting this from here, as I think it also pertains to this thread.
A major contributer of the current problems with Zerg (that show up mostly in ZvT) is the fact that, in order to get the mobility that Zerg had in BW, you need to spread creep. I see (amongst others) two huge strengths that mobility gives you:
1. The ability to have your army positions be less predictable. 2. The ability to retreat when you want to.
We can see that, due to the mechanics of creep, the first strength does not come into play until the late-game (assuming the other player doesn't kill the creep tumors). Early game, the creep acts like a huge beacon saying "HERE I AM, COME AND FIGHT ME." So simply put, the zerg wants to spread creep to become mobile, but cannot take advantage of it as much.
The ability to retreat properly is a huge strength, one which currently can only be used on creep. This a big problem too, and is (imo) one of the biggest contributors to 200/200 syndrome. Simply put, if they want to attack the opponent and be able to pull out, they either have to spread the creep right up to the other player's front door, or attack without creep and be unable to retreat. If the Zerg player wants to have creep at the opponent's base, it takes a long time to spread (and defend) the creep to the opponent, so you might as well get a max army while you do so. If you don't, you'll want as large an army as possible so that you minimize your chances of losing. Additionally, you'll want to stockpile larva so you can quickly make a new army.
A subtle consequence of these two problems is that they make the zerg army less able to react quickly, which is supposed to be their strength in SC2 (and is, to an extent). Specifically, say the zerg has been spreading creep and macroing, and they scout a Terran expo on the far side of the map. How do they react? You can't send your army, as your army is not as strong if they get caught off the creep in the middle of nowhere, and you could lose a battle, be unable to retreat, get your army killed, and lose to a 1a2a3a into your main (or, less drastically, have your creep spread lessened). Pretty much the only unit worth sending is speedlings, and hellions laugh at those. So, it becomes difficult to punish an expansion that you scout.
Having a creep carpet works counter to the design of the zerg (the game design, not lore design), at least in it's current form. Personally, I'd up the speed of all zerg units, remove speed bonus on creep, make the creep increase the HP regen of zerg units. While not precisely related, I'd love to let Zerg have more of an ability to keep the Terran player honest, so perhaps removing the armor value on Supply depots would make early pools more viable. But regardless, as a game designer, I view the creep as a tool which, on the surface, seems to work with the strengths of the zerg, but actaully only hinders it. I love the idea of it, but the current implementation is poor.
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Perhaps I'm being redundant, but I'd just like to strongly emphasize the point that creep CANNOT be required to give Zerg an even fight. I honestly don't think giving Zerg units infinite speed on creep would fix the fundamental problem in the mechanic (no don't bother responding to that, it's not serious): it's completely and totally passive and defensive.
I don't think the ability to permanently put unbuildable creep in your opponent's base is something anyone wants. But when you make an attack, you need to send your units towards the opponent's base, and thus there is not going to be creep there. This means you can never, ever attack with ground units or you will not have an even fight.
Zerg is, or at least I think people want it to be, heavily reliant on using very fast units that bring swift death to enemy units unless the enemy pools all or most of his units together into one army, sacrificing control of a larger area. I personally don't think the current Zerg unit pool is capable of being cost-effective at this job other than the Mutalisk simply due to attack statistics, the effects of unit balls with lack of Zerg splash/range, and costs, and the map pool is terrible for it too, but I digress. Anyway, creeping up the map gives a large enough advantage with vision and possibly moving crawlers to forward chokes that I'd do it even if creep gave no speed. But being scared to death of sending Hydralisks to kill a totally undefended expansion because they'll take a full minute or more to get there and back and cost so much is not something I like as a Zerg player.
If we don't have map control with ground units, but are reliant on extra bases to break even, how are we supposed to play? Never mind the problems where even getting our economy running is difficult because of how cost-ineffective early units are and how crawlers cannot be reactionary.
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Fast units all the time --> Zerg is nimble race.
Slow units except on defensive creep --> Zerg is macro race.
SC1 took the first option. SC2 took the second.
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On August 19 2010 08:59 Severedevil wrote: Fast units all the time --> Zerg is nimble race.
Slow units except on defensive creep --> Zerg is macro race.
SC1 took the first option. SC2 took the second.
Except that it's kind of hard to out-macro your opponent when you can't punish them for expanding.
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i think creep is totally fine where it is right now, after a larva injection i put a tumor down and by the time i have my nat a quarter of the map is already taken over by creep giving me sight and giving me the "o shit" factor over my enemy. the reason why you feel the way you do about zerg unit speed is because your so used to seeing zerg units run along creep that you use that as the minimum.
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On August 19 2010 08:59 Severedevil wrote: Fast units all the time --> Zerg is nimble race.
Slow units except on defensive creep --> Zerg is macro race.
SC1 took the first option. SC2 took the second.
There is no such thing as a macro race that cannot exert map control.
The creep mechanic as it stands is more of an albatross around the neck than anything for Zerg. Off-creep, their units are too slow to be considered mobile, except for zerglings. Compare this to Protoss and Terran which have remarkable unit compositions for getting excellent mobility almost anywhere on the map. On-creep, it is just enough for Zerg to be able to reasonably defend their map control. They have to get map control in the current design to be able compete with the other races, but they have a lot of difficulty defending without creep. Spreading creep only serves to equalize Zerg on the defensive instead of giving them an advantage, and the concept of creep guiding unit design has led to units that are ineffective at projecting threats against Zerg's opponents.
Is this the best mechanic to suit Zerg? There have been a few alternatives posed by the community. There is probably one suggestion for every user :p
Instead of speed bonus, give zerg ground faster speed by default and one of...
-Higher regen for Zerg units on creep -Reclamation of minerals from units that die on creep -Free nydus worms on creep -Creep slows down enemy units -Anything that gives Zerg a distinct homeground advantage!
How about moving a creep bonus to lair/hive tech and give it to Zerg as an endgame strength/threat instead of as a cage?
One other issue that I think is evident is that the spread of creep around a hatchery is too small to effectively defend mineral lines on some maps with queens. It literally makes Zerg defense harder than Protoss or Terran defense! What advantage does Zerg have with creep? Especially when they nerfed Queen speed off creep. It's like they want Zerg to play as passively as possible, to the point of breaking where the lightest and safest harassment can be a vicious blow.
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Zerg has already been balanced around the mechanics of creep. Its the same way Protoss build times are longer thanks to chrono boost and warp gate. Sure it feels like it is an unnecessary debuff, but if it were changed (making it so every thing builds as fast as if it was always chrono boosted) Protoss would be horribly over powered.
This is actually pretty good, instead of giving everyone a bonus automatically, it rewards the toss and zerg players that actively use their energy. The only problem is that terran doesnt have anything like this, so they get that "straight up bonus".
This will obviously seem like a stupid suggestion (and it basically is, just take it as an example), but if terran scvs mined slower, and mules were a bit more effective miners, it would be a lot more like the current state of zerg and toss. If they are active they are not punished, however if they are lackadaisical then they are punished.
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But they haven't been balanced. The mechanic of creep is fundamentally broken because balancing around creep renders zerg units unable to apply pressure. They are strong where there is creep, which is tautological as that is where they are in control in the first place.
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As hunch said, zerg is used to their movement speed on creep as a minimum, and feel helplessly crippled the second they get off creep. People have stopped seeing creep as a buff, and now think that creep just makes their speed normal. Off creep, yes, zerg is at a slight disadvantage. However they are still extremely capable of taking down terran and protoss armies. On creep zerg units ability to defend dramatically increases.
The whole game is balanced around this idea. Every zerg unit has a speed where they are cost effective against their respective counters off creep, and even better on creep. If zerg always moved as fast as they did on creep, they would also need several debuffs, because they would be too strong.
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Here's how I, as Zerg, hold off Terran timing pushes: Infestorling. It works really well because it can work against bio and mech.
I recomend building an extra hatch in ur main cause u need to mass a lot of lings - dont let ur minerals stack - spend them before the push or ur toast.
And this really actually works against Terran.
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On August 19 2010 13:01 BrightLegacy wrote: As hunch said, zerg is used to their movement speed on creep as a minimum, and feel helplessly crippled the second they get off creep. People have stopped seeing creep as a buff, and now think that creep just makes their speed normal. Off creep, yes, zerg is at a slight disadvantage. However they are still extremely capable of taking down terran and protoss armies. On creep zerg units ability to defend dramatically increases.
The whole game is balanced around this idea. Every zerg unit has a speed where they are cost effective against their respective counters off creep, and even better on creep. If zerg always moved as fast as they did on creep, they would also need several debuffs, because they would be too strong.
But this is simply not true! You can proclaim it as loudly as you want on the forums, but in tournaments, this is not what is observed. It makes sense on paper, especially when you use cleverly crafted statements using words like "slight" to describe the disadvantage zerg units have off creep. It is crippling, not slight.
Also it is not fun, which is the main thrust of this thread. Even if you balance it, it is not fun. It is passive and frustrating.
A good set of games that happened just recently to look at is TLO v. Madfrog from today's tournaments. Madfrog valiantly fought off the harass he had no real answer to, but to no avail. When he tried to counter attack, there was no use, because zerg units cannot counterattack in the early game-- and for that matter neither in the mid game, nor in the late game.
Tomorrow there will be more examples. We will see dimaga fight against odds and the powerhouse Idra take on players with half his strength but even chances against the crippled zerg armies.
The only reason why I disagree with your theorycrafting is because of the games from excellent players- excellent terrans and zerg alike (PvZ is a different matter)- that demonstrate that the fundamental design of zerg is flawed. It is unsound as a basis for a race and it leads to boring and frustrating play even if it were balanced. But observation is all the evidence I need to make my opinion. I am curious how you formed yours.
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Zerg needs a better defense. They need to be able to counter banshee rushes, hellion rushes, thor rushes (one thor with a lot of SCVs repairing it - kinda rare, but ppl do it), and early marine marauder pushes with one build. ZvT is too specialized. they need to know what T is doing so they can counter it.
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On August 19 2010 13:11 blacktoss wrote:
But this is simply not true! You can proclaim it as loudly as you want on the forums, but in tournaments, this is not what is observed. It makes sense on paper, especially when you use cleverly crafted statements using words like "slight" to describe the disadvantage zerg units have off creep. It is crippling, not slight.
Also it is not fun, which is the main thrust of this thread. Even if you balance it, it is not fun. It is passive and frustrating.
A good set of games that happened just recently to look at is TLO v. Madfrog from today's tournaments. Madfrog valiantly fought off the harass he had no real answer to, but to no avail. When he tried to counter attack, there was no use, because zerg units cannot counterattack in the early game-- and for that matter neither in the mid game, nor in the late game.
Tomorrow there will be more examples. We will see dimaga fight against odds and the powerhouse Idra take on players with half his strength but even chances against the crippled zerg armies.
The only reason why I disagree with your theorycrafting is because of the games from excellent players- excellent terrans and zerg alike (PvZ is a different matter)- that demonstrate that the fundamental design of zerg is flawed. It is unsound as a basis for a race and it leads to boring and frustrating play even if it were balanced. But observation is all the evidence I need to make my opinion. I am curious how you formed yours.
As a low level random player, my opinion can only count for so much. I have always found that zerg was my favorite race, and I have the most wins as zerg. So from my point of view, every thing is fairly balanced. And I have watched TLO vs Madfrog, and although I agree with you in the fact that zerg is the worst race among the pros, TLO was clearly the better player among the two.
I dont think that zerg is even really that underpowered. ZvP is incredibly balanced, and I only really tip the hat in favor of protoss because more people play toss and it is more developed. I think the main problem is that Terran is overpowered, and it can exploit its strength the most against zerg.
Back on topic, I enjoy spreading creep (it is one of my favoirte aspects of zerg), and messing with the way creep works would only ruin PvZ. TvP on the other hand is not totally balanced yet, and TvZ is clearly in terrans favor. The real solution here is to tone down terran.
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On August 19 2010 12:28 blacktoss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 08:59 Severedevil wrote: Fast units all the time --> Zerg is nimble race.
Slow units except on defensive creep --> Zerg is macro race.
SC1 took the first option. SC2 took the second.
There is no such thing as a macro race that cannot exert map control. The creep mechanic as it stands is more of an albatross around the neck than anything for Zerg. Off-creep, their units are too slow to be considered mobile, except for zerglings. Compare this to Protoss and Terran which have remarkable unit compositions for getting excellent mobility almost anywhere on the map. On-creep, it is just enough for Zerg to be able to reasonably defend their map control. They have to get map control in the current design to be able compete with the other races, but they have a lot of difficulty defending without creep. Spreading creep only serves to equalize Zerg on the defensive instead of giving them an advantage, and the concept of creep guiding unit design has led to units that are ineffective at projecting threats against Zerg's opponents. Is this the best mechanic to suit Zerg? There have been a few alternatives posed by the community. There is probably one suggestion for every user :p Instead of speed bonus, give zerg ground faster speed by default and one of... -Higher regen for Zerg units on creep -Reclamation of minerals from units that die on creep -Free nydus worms on creep -Creep slows down enemy units -Anything that gives Zerg a distinct homeground advantage! How about moving a creep bonus to lair/hive tech and give it to Zerg as an endgame strength/threat instead of as a cage? One other issue that I think is evident is that the spread of creep around a hatchery is too small to effectively defend mineral lines on some maps with queens. It literally makes Zerg defense harder than Protoss or Terran defense! What advantage does Zerg have with creep? Especially when they nerfed Queen speed off creep. It's like they want Zerg to play as passively as possible, to the point of breaking where the lightest and safest harassment can be a vicious blow.
You should make a thread about this.
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I think such a thread would be redundant or too close to theorycraft to be worthwhile. :p
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On August 19 2010 13:08 Antares777 wrote: Here's how I, as Zerg, hold off Terran timing pushes: Infestorling. It works really well because it can work against bio and mech.
I recomend building an extra hatch in ur main cause u need to mass a lot of lings - dont let ur minerals stack - spend them before the push or ur toast.
And this really actually works against Terran.
The only problem with this defense is the time between when you hit lair and the time when you get infestors with enough energy to cast.
I love this build too, but it has problems, in my experience, with say a marauder/hellion push that can get out a little bit before you can really get enough energy on infestors for FG. A marauder/hellion/thor push can also be deadly if NP isn't researched yet.
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Creep isn't that much of a crutch, drop creep with ovies. Ovies were sacrificed libereally in BW all the time.
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It's actually the opposite of a crutch. A crutch would be something that zerg players rely on in order to compensate for unsound strategy and mechanics. It is the opposite of a crutch. It is the glass load bearer that Blizzard built Zerg around.
Or at least that is how it seems.
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On August 19 2010 13:27 BrightLegacy wrote: As a low level random player, my opinion can only count for so much. I have always found that zerg was my favorite race, and I have the most wins as zerg. So from my point of view, every thing is fairly balanced. And I have watched TLO vs Madfrog, and although I agree with you in the fact that zerg is the worst race among the pros, TLO was clearly the better player among the two.
I think you should reevaluate your position. I will make an analogy to explain my argument.
I play chess sometimes. Not a lot, and not very well. I think I have a reasonable chance to beat anyone who isn't a prodigy or plays in clubs or at tournaments. I can still remember just learning how to play when I was a child. Anyone I would play would easily beat me with simple, but fundamentally unsound strategies. As I developed, I became more aware of the threats posed against me, but I still had difficulty against such strategies because I was not skilled, and I did not understand what made one particular tactic or strategy strong and others completely unviable.
At this level, there are a plethora of chess openings that look good or even very strong, but ultimately are fatally flawed. A novice player will not have the acumen to spot those flaws or understand the theory that creates good strategy. But, with good instruction and watching grandmasters play, they can come to quickly understand what is a good strategy and what is not, even if they still have trouble formulating such understanding by themselves.
The same principle applies in Starcraft 2, and in any particularly complicated, nuanced game. As novices, you and I, we cannot judge for ourselves what is flawed and what is sound. We have poor vision on foot, but on the shoulders of progamers and teachers, we can see things we did not even know existed in the game. This is why I think replays and the commentaries of pros and knowledgeable casters is more valuable than just the experiences of an amateur alone.
My arguments are not made by theorycrafting. I am essentially transcribing what I see and what I hear on replays and analyses into a coherent thought. Maybe I am completely wrong. This is completely possible because I am not the one playing in tournaments or making these commentaries. I am listening and trying to learn. This is what I have learned. If I have learned it wrong, I would like to be corrected.
P.S. Oops, I double posted >.< how do I delete my extra post?
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On August 19 2010 13:44 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 13:08 Antares777 wrote: Here's how I, as Zerg, hold off Terran timing pushes: Infestorling. It works really well because it can work against bio and mech.
I recomend building an extra hatch in ur main cause u need to mass a lot of lings - dont let ur minerals stack - spend them before the push or ur toast.
And this really actually works against Terran. The only problem with this defense is the time between when you hit lair and the time when you get infestors with enough energy to cast. I love this build too, but it has problems, in my experience, with say a marauder/hellion push that can get out a little bit before you can really get enough energy on infestors for FG. A marauder/hellion/thor push can also be deadly if NP isn't researched yet.
ive never been marauder/hellion rushed before. ive been marine/hellion rushed and marauder marine rushed, but never marauder/hellion. secondly, i have a shitload of lings in this build. i even have a 2nd hatch in my main, and can produce more lings if i get attack and can hold out against rushes.
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On August 19 2010 13:41 blacktoss wrote: I think such a thread would be redundant or too close to theorycraft to be worthwhile. :p
yeah u r right.
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On August 19 2010 14:02 blacktoss wrote: My arguments are not made by theorycrafting. I am essentially transcribing what I see and what I hear on replays and analyses into a coherent thought. Maybe I am completely wrong. This is completely possible because I am not the one playing in tournaments or making these commentaries. I am listening and trying to learn. This is what I have learned. If I have learned it wrong, I would like to be corrected.
And similarly, my opinions come from analyzing the game from a design perspective. Zerg were designed to be a macro-heavy mobile race, and using creep to provide this mobility is inherently unsound, as it runs completely counter to this design.
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For everyone suggesting or agreeing to the suggestion that creep speed be reversed (enemy units slowed rather than friendly units sped up), there is a really obvious reason why they wouldnt have liked this idea (though it makes sense).
As a player, its just not fun to have your units slowed down or in any other way physically impaired (Z players complaining here are evidence enough, but see also "ensnare" from SC1, "Fungal growth," and those stupid conc shells). Since any vZ matchup with this mechanic would involve slowing, inevitably, youd run into the problem that as a player, its really not fun to have your units default-slowed by the creep, especially early game when you dont have the means to take it out. Therefore, a way of creating the same advantage is to make friendly units faster since it
1) makes your side more fun (theoretically) and
2) does not affect the opponent directly, ie, it doesnt take away from their fun.
Its a win-win situation in theory, but in practice, its turning out to be a double-sided sword. They should just try making the bonus a little less (say, 10% instead of the 30% it gives now). Same max speed, greater off-creep speed. If some units get too stupid (roach, hydra) just nerf em delicately.
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Designwise the difference between offcreep being basespeed and oncreep being a bonus to oncreep being base and offcreep bein a malus is merely perspective. There is a balance aspect to it and a design one. Balancewise Zerg need a buff, maybe via creep but I don´t think that is the real issue Zerg have.
Zerg SHOULD have the incentive to spread creep and engage the enemy on it. A few of the change suggestion simply break that, HP-regen is NOT a incentve to have creep all over the map or risking a Overlord to bring creep to a battle. Movementspeed is a great incentive for both and makes intuitive sense.
You also need to consider that the opposition isn´t supposed to just watch as a Zerg spreads creep if that gives him an advantage. Tumors are kinda well protected via stealth, it takes a resourceinvestment to counter that, certainly more than it takes the Zerg to create them. Overlords are kinda bad Targets/Damagesponges as they are cheap for the Zerg - since they grant control instead of requiring it the real cost is the larvae.
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On August 19 2010 16:36 Unentschieden wrote: Zerg SHOULD have the incentive to spread creep and engage the enemy on it. A few of the change suggestion simply break that, HP-regen is NOT a incentve to have creep all over the map or risking a Overlord to bring creep to a battle. Movementspeed is a great incentive for both and makes intuitive sense. Why should Zerg have an incentive to engage the enemy on it? So long as engaging on creep is significantly advantageous Zerg encounters off it won't be viable unless the race as a whole is broken. I agree that Zerg should have an incentive to spread creep, but when they feel the need to only engage on it you've run straight into the real problem here, that the race can't expect to pressure without putting themselves at undue risk.
If you take away the speed buff creep still gives you vision and blocks enemy expansions. This is a significant enough benefit that good players would spread it regardless. Adding the speed benefit means that a balance has to be struck between Zerg being too strong on creep and too weak off it, which still means that the "only attack when an enemy push failed" response will stay. You need to be SURE of your advantage when pushing because you are already certain of the disadvantage you will face when going for it. Adding something like regen, or cheaper/free Nydus Worms on creep would both encourage hit and run tactics. In battle you would be equally effective on and off creep, so the only difference would be that you want it close by so you either can get up to full strength faster or get away instantaneously when the enemy's reprisal comes. I particularly like having regen as the creep bonus because of the excellent synergy with burrow; making your units invisible and healing them to full at the risk of being found and destroyed while helpless. Plus, when pushing an enemy won't know if the army you just retreated from his forces burrowed just out of sight to heal or fled to the rally for reinforcements. The Zerg ambush would return. Even better, let burrowed units be invisible while moving under creep, so when you're on your home turf you have the full advantage of surprise.
Having it so that Zerg likes being on their home creep, so that they have more options there, would be so much better than having their army be flatly better on creep than off.
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Is there anyone, who can see some possibilities with creep speed bonus or creep spread speed/area inscrease with your tier level? Since Hive give nothing to zerg right now, only acess to new technologies acess to technologies.
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On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 16:36 Unentschieden wrote: Zerg SHOULD have the incentive to spread creep and engage the enemy on it. A few of the change suggestion simply break that, HP-regen is NOT a incentve to have creep all over the map or risking a Overlord to bring creep to a battle. Movementspeed is a great incentive for both and makes intuitive sense. Why should Zerg have an incentive to engage the enemy on it?
Fundamentally because it´s unique to the race, makes Creep more than a build limitation and allows ALL Zerg units to have good mobility (given their respective roles). Some units are mobile without it, some aren´t.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: So long as engaging on creep is significantly advantageous Zerg encounters off it won't be viable unless the race as a whole is broken.
That might be the case right now but remember that the advantage isn´t equal overall. Some units don´t rely on Creep, others do but it´s always an advantage. Off creep encounters should be LIMITED not straight DISADVANTAGED.
I´m arguing on the design principle here, not current balance reality.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: I agree that Zerg should have an incentive to spread creep, but when they feel the need to only engage on it you've run straight into the real problem here, that the race can't expect to pressure without putting themselves at undue risk.
They should be able to pressure without creep, yes. But as the game develops and Zerg get more opporunities to spread creep they should also require to spread creep more. That is why I´d rather buff Zergs abilities to spread creep than to make them less reliant on it.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: If you take away the speed buff creep still gives you vision and blocks enemy expansions. This is a significant enough benefit that good players would spread it regardless. Adding the speed benefit means that a balance has to be struck between Zerg being too strong on creep and too weak off it, which still means that the "only attack when an enemy push failed" response will stay.
Again, it´s not "all zerg rule on creep / all zerg suck off creep". They obviously can´t have creep everywhere and can´t be expected to always fight on Creep, and the units in these situations need to function without Creep. However there also are situations where the Zerg is expected to have creep and the units for THESE situations SHOULD rely on creep.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: You need to be SURE of your advantage when pushing because you are already certain of the disadvantage you will face when going for it. Adding something like regen, or cheaper/free Nydus Worms on creep would both encourage hit and run tactics. In battle you would be equally effective on and off creep, so the only difference would be that you want it close by so you either can get up to full strength faster or get away instantaneously when the enemy's reprisal comes. I particularly like having regen as the creep bonus because of the excellent synergy with burrow; making your units invisible and healing them to full at the risk of being found and destroyed while helpless. Plus, when pushing an enemy won't know if the army you just retreated from his forces burrowed just out of sight to heal or fled to the rally for reinforcements. The Zerg ambush would return. Even better, let burrowed units be invisible while moving under creep, so when you're on your home turf you have the full advantage of surprise.
Having it so that Zerg likes being on their home creep, so that they have more options there, would be so much better than having their army be flatly better on creep than off.
Your argumentation doesn´t seem to fit. Ok, Zerg need to be able to push reliably. That however is an argument to make Creep in pushing situations more/easier available than to change the mechanic outright.
Your suggestions make creep more defensive/reactive, it gives advantages when retreating / laying traps NOT when attacking. This encourages exactly what we both don´t want, that Zerg become (more) reactive, relying on the enemy to put himself in a bad position.
I´d like it so that Zerg don´t view Creep as "home advantage" but as field resource. Something you bring to the enemy, not a line in the sand the enemy is reluctant to cross.
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I don't play zerg, but my brother does, and his primary complaint about them is how their unit upgrades suck, he despairs at the fact that all they seem to do is increase speed (lings,roaches, overlords etc), meaning that without them their units are inherently slow.
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I posted this topic in the official Blizzard forums, with the likely vain hope that it will be closer to Blizzard's eyes there. The first post is below, though it had to be split into two after exceeding the character limit.
+ Show Spoiler +For a hundred-odd responses on this topic, see the TeamLiquid thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144836This has been bugging me for some time, and while I am not a particularly good player I feel that the point is still a legitimate one: creep, as it stands now, runs counter to everything Zerg, and is hurting the gameplay of the race. Zerg is the swarm, an overwhelming force that is summoned seemingly from thin air and that is gone just as swiftly, leaving behind only corpses to tell of their passing. They strike fear into their foes that dare leave the sanctuary of their base, striking at anywhere and everywhere and melting away before reprisal can come. Their army might break under the full might that the other races can bring to bear, but it doesn't matter after a thousand pinprick strikes have left them crippled before the final battle can even begin. Except, with creep, this does not happen; it cannot. The only ground unit that is truly mobile off creep is the Zergling, a unit that is simply too weak to deal with defenses before the army arrives. In the early game Zerg pressure is reliant on overwhelming force rather than mobility, considering that off creep Roaches don't swarm, they lumber. That the only early attack a Zerg can attempt is a Baneling bust, a sudden and overwhelming burst of damage, is at least in part because even if units DO get into the enemy base, Zerglings are too feeble to do much damage, and Roaches are too slow. They can get kited into the ground while reinforcements crawl across the map. It isn't until mid game that your creep network can really start claiming a significant part of the map, considering that the cost in larva for a single early creep tumor is debilitating to your economy and to your army. You need a second queen, and a third once the requisite early expansion claims the second. If left entirely unhindered, which is unlikely considering that a push or harass is likely to come soon after your expansion rises, then you should be able to creep up a good part of your side of the map. This lets you defend, but at the same time the true disadvantage of creep becomes clear when your first Hydra, lost and confused, stumbles off the creep and becomes one of the least mobile units in the game. In mid game creep hinders Zerg because an otherwise equal Zerg army off creep isn't equal at all, lacking the speed to flank or the ability to retreat. You don't try to harass at this point because the mighty swarm will be caught by the enemy if it attempts to flee. And then, when we leave the mid game and enter the late, it all comes undone as detection hits the field and fifteen minutes of work is undone by creep tumors being sniped at will. The game has to end here for the Zerg, because even if they defend the push they have lost all mobility. They will be unable to defend their expansions or reinforce their army as they need to. And the Zerg will have had the creep pushed back hopelessly from their opponent, and certainly away from the wall at the front that they cannot hope to assault with their lumbering force. The reason that Zergs so rarely attack until they have soundly defeated an enemy push is that they have to be certain of their advantages when going into a battle, seeing as how they know full well of the disadvantages. I like the idea behind creep, that the Zerg are literally infesting the map itself, claiming if for the Swarm and marking it as an undeniable danger to those who would intrude. But making the Zerg army flatly stronger on the creep undermines their nature, forcing them to be defensive rather than offensive and crippling their attempts to pressure the enemy or punish him for being too greedy and spreading too far. When Zerg players feel the need to only engage on creep then something has gone terribly, terribly wrong with the race. There are ways to fix this. Even without speed the vision it provides and ability to delay expansions it enables make creep worthwhile to spread. But creep giving a bonus to the swarm itself is something that should stay, just not through speed. I'd personally prefer something that encourages hit and run tactics rather than discouraging them as it does now. Two suggestions I've seen are to give Zerg faster regeneration on creep, or to allow them to build Nydus Worms faster/cheaper/free on creep. With either Zerg would feel the need to return to the creep whenever possible, but it would not make their army any weaker when they leave. The regeneration would allow small strike forces to nurse their wounds before returning to a new location to wreak further havoc. My favorite result would be the synergy that creep would have with burrow, by allowing units to be both invisible and recuperating, safely encompassed by purple goo. This is not without risks; a zerg that haphazardly burrows their army after a battle will be helpless if detection arrives. A Terran quick with a scan could burn out a great deal of the army that thought it had bought time to heal. Perhaps this synergy could go even further by removing the visible movement of Roaches and Infestors moving under creep, giving the Zerg ambush a new life on their home turf. Improved Nydus Worms on creep would give the Zerg later in the game that feeling of being anywhere at once. At that point you should have the ability to find and destroy tumors nearby, and you would want to do so so that you don't find the Zerg army hitting you while out of position and vanishing when you pull together to fight them. It would also give a bit of synergy between overlord creep and Nydus Worms, as Overlords can reach further and faster than tumors and would thus allow a greater range of mobility than a simple speed boost now does. It would also give Zerg players a choice; risk being more visible when building an offensive worm by having the Overlord there to build faster, or take the slower route without an Overlord and face the threat of being overwhelmed by simple workers before it completes? One other suggestion that should be applied even if the speed mechanic remains is allowing tumors to gain health the longer they are left untouched. This would entrench the Zerg creep in areas it has held for longer and reward them further for spreading creep as soon as possible. I'm certain Blizzard considered most if not all of these ideas before deciding on the speed boost, so I'm also curious as to why you think they would have chosen not to implement them.
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On August 19 2010 18:07 Melancholia wrote: Improved Nydus Worms on creep would give the Zerg later in the game that feeling of being anywhere at once. At that point you should have the ability to find and destroy tumors nearby, and you would want to do so so that you don't find the Zerg army hitting you while out of position and vanishing when you pull together to fight them. It would also give a bit of synergy between overlord creep and Nydus Worms, as Overlords can reach further and faster than tumors and would thus allow a greater range of mobility than a simple speed boost now does. It would also give Zerg players a choice; risk being more visible when building an offensive worm by having the Overlord there to build faster, or take the slower route without an Overlord and face the threat of being overwhelmed by simple workers before it completes?
Doesn´t that go against the approach that Nydus worms are supposed to supply transportation and Creep where Overlords CAN`T get to?
On August 19 2010 18:07 Melancholia wrote: One other suggestion that should be applied even if the speed mechanic remains is allowing tumors to gain health the longer they are left untouched. This would entrench the Zerg creep in areas it has held for longer and reward them further for spreading creep as soon as possible.
I'm certain Blizzard considered most if not all of these ideas before deciding on the speed boost, so I'm also curious as to why you think they would have chosen not to implement them.
Creep Tumors are not supposed to be a entrenchment mechanic but for Mapcontrol. I´d go the opposite route, don´t make the harder to kill the longer the game lasts but make them easier to spread the longer the game lasts.
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On August 19 2010 17:53 Unentschieden wrote: Fundamentally because it´s unique to the race, makes Creep more than a build limitation and allows ALL Zerg units to have good mobility (given their respective roles). Some units are mobile without it, some aren´t. Except that at some point all Zerg units will have the role of attacking the enemy, you can't go the whole game without striking at the opponents base and can't do so with only the half of your army that can leave the creep without being drastically nerfed.
That might be the case right now but remember that the advantage isn´t equal overall. Some units don´t rely on Creep, others do but it´s always an advantage. Off creep encounters should be LIMITED not straight DISADVANTAGED.
I´m arguing on the design principle here, not current balance reality. In a game like Starcraft where every little advantage matters, the limit of having half your army drastically weakened off creep IS a straight disadvantage. You should have to use every unit you build in SC, and when you can't use some of them at the most critical point then something is desperately wrong.
They should be able to pressure without creep, yes. But as the game develops and Zerg get more opporunities to spread creep they should also require to spread creep more. That is why I´d rather buff Zergs abilities to spread creep than to make them less reliant on it. That's taking a defeatist approach, where we just accept that the inability to pressure with the lack of creep means that we'll wait up on it an hope that our opponent doesn't destroy the tumors or us before that happens.
Again, it´s not "all zerg rule on creep / all zerg suck off creep". They obviously can´t have creep everywhere and can´t be expected to always fight on Creep, and the units in these situations need to function without Creep. However there also are situations where the Zerg is expected to have creep and the units for THESE situations SHOULD rely on creep.
Again, there can't be creep only units if you ever want the Zerg to be able to choose to attack. The only way that works if you you to engage ON creep, use the creep-only units to win the battle, and then rapidly strike back with the other units while the creep-only ones catch up, which is what we're seeing with the overly-defensive Zergs.
Your argumentation doesn´t seem to fit. Ok, Zerg need to be able to push reliably. That however is an argument to make Creep in pushing situations more/easier available than to change the mechanic outright. Except that you're still acknowledging that you must have creep to attack, when you can't possibly have it for much of the game without it being so early and so easy as to be pointless anyway. How is it an argument that it should be available rather than that it shouldn't be the deciding factor at all?
Your suggestions make creep more defensive/reactive, it gives advantages when retreating / laying traps NOT when attacking. This encourages exactly what we both don´t want, that Zerg become (more) reactive, relying on the enemy to put himself in a bad position.
I´d like it so that Zerg don´t view Creep as "home advantage" but as field resource. Something you bring to the enemy, not a line in the sand the enemy is reluctant to cross. First, an advantage to retreating is an offensive bonus, it's USELESS when you are defending given that you are already as far back as you can be without sacrificing something crucial such as an expansion. You can't retreat unless you're fighting somewhere that you can give up on without losing the game. The Nydus Worms would be absolutely worthless if you are forced to use them for defense against a push given that you army would come out one at a time. The regen is only a factor after you have already engaged, trying to heal an undamaged army is pointless. Only the burrow changes would provide an actual advantage when fighting on your home turf, and how can you possibly think that improving the mobility of two units in the Zerg arsenal AFTER getting an upgrade or two is MORE defensive than boosting the mobility of the ENTIRE army?
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On August 19 2010 18:40 Unentschieden wrote: Doesn´t that go against the approach that Nydus worms are supposed to supply transportation and Creep where Overlords CAN`T get to? What does that even mean? You can't build a Nydus Worm without vision, and the most common form of vision is from an overlord, which is also the Zerg transport. Where there is a Nydus Worm there is inevitably already an overlord there.
Creep Tumors are not supposed to be a entrenchment mechanic but for Mapcontrol. I´d go the opposite route, don´t make the harder to kill the longer the game lasts but make them easier to spread the longer the game lasts. They're easy enough to spread already, this is meant to address the issue that once the enemy gets detection they can wipe out minutes of work before you can defend. A smart Zerg won't attack the moment the enemy reaches the first tumor, which is usually the only one at that point that can continue building, but will wait until they are further into the creeped area to try to surround. How many matches have you seen where the Zerg meets the enemy push at the enemy's front door versus near the Zerg's own?
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I think some people are missing the point here. If you play vs a good player he will destroy the creep tumors, there is no way you can attack on creep. Its only good for defending and moving around between bases. Hydralisks are so slow off creep that they become almost worthless. The Creep mechanic is not working as intended.
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This has a serious threath to turn into Quote: the qoutening, so I´ll try to just go with my core argument here. Yeah stuff like Nydusworms matter but I think it´d just derail the discussion if we go after that more.
On August 19 2010 18:41 Melancholia wrote: Except that you're still acknowledging that you must have creep to attack, when you can't possibly have it for much of the game without it being so early and so easy as to be pointless anyway. How is it an argument that it should be available rather than that it shouldn't be the deciding factor at all?
It being available means that the enemy can react to it. It´s supposed to be a struggle between a Zerg and his enemy to fight on or off creep.
The interesting thing about this is that the Zerg always has an advantage on creep but not always the opportunity to get it where he needs it. Tumors on their own can´t and shouldn´t be enough.
Yes the Zerg is definetly in a big disadvantage in certain situations to provide creep - and THAT is where and when you need Zergunits that function without it. BUT there are also situations where it´s hard for the enemy to get rid of creep - and there you NEED to give the enemy an advantage if he DOES get rid of it.
On August 19 2010 19:17 Sqq wrote: I think some people are missing the point here. If you play vs a good player he will destroy the creep tumors, there is no way you can attack on creep. Its only good for defending and moving around between bases. Hydralisks are so slow off creep that they become almost worthless. The Creep mechanic is not working as intended.
Tumors are useless to provide creeps for attacks, that is absolutely intentional. You need Overlords for offensive creeping. Are you really suggesting that even a good player should be unable to clear creep? Creep needs to be spreadable and clearable for it to be an element in an encounter instead of a line in the sand that gives the Zerg a flat advantage.
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It seems that we agree that if creep is serving to make nearly all Zergs play defensively so that they are always on creep then the mechanic has failed to function as we would like it to. We disagree that it's possible for Zerg to have a chance if there are engagements where they cannot bring some of their army at all or quickly enough because that part is largely restricted to creep. It is my experience that if you have invested any significant amount of money into a unit that cannot be a part of your army at all times then your army will be hopelessly weakened when it engages without that investment present.
Using overlords for offensive creeping is useless at the most critical point, the first engagement, given the delay before they start pooping creep, and is a huge risk in minerals and supply if you do not succeed. Having a 32+ supply buffer is difficult to pull off consistently. If you use it for retreating then you may as well engage at your tumor line anyway.
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On August 19 2010 19:40 Melancholia wrote: It seems that we agree that if creep is serving to make nearly all Zergs play defensively so that they are always on creep then the mechanic has failed to function as we would like it to.
Yes, removing the advantage can´t be crippling if it´s supposed to be possible. Destroying Medivacs doesn´t prevent Marines from using Stim, it does make Stim "worse" though.
On August 19 2010 19:40 Melancholia wrote: We disagree that it's possible for Zerg to have a chance if there are engagements where they cannot bring some of their army at all or quickly enough because that part is largely restricted to creep.
Tumors SHOULD be able to provide enough creep that even your "superslow" units aren´t left behind and/or useless offcreep unless that is by design (Queen). While I don´t think Hydras are THAT slow I agree that this particular case would be an argument for a offcreep speedup.
On August 19 2010 19:40 Melancholia wrote: It is my experience that if you have invested any significant amount of money into a unit that cannot be a part of your army at all times then your army will be hopelessly weakened when it engages without that investment present.
Yes and that is absolutely fine. It´s the same for other races though, To take up my earlier example, you don´t expect Marines Marauders without a Medivac to perform as well as Marine Marauder Medivac.
You might make an argument that creep is too "expensive" in the effort/chances for success to provide.
On August 19 2010 19:40 Melancholia wrote: Using overlords for offensive creeping is useless at the most critical point, the first engagement, given the delay before they start pooping creep, and is a huge risk in minerals and supply if you do not succeed. Having a 32+ supply buffer is difficult to pull off consistently. If you use it for retreating then you may as well engage at your tumor line anyway.
Well yes the first engagement needs to "work" without creep. I haven´t seen anyone contest that. But once Creepdrop is available it should be used, and it´s valid to complain should that be too hard/risky/ineffective.
Then why not argue for better creepdropping from overlords? Or even, more/easier access to overlords? They are very cheap since they PROVIDE control, the real cost is them taking up larvae. What if there was a midgameoption to "twinspawn" Overlords, would that make them (even) more riskable?
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On August 17 2010 16:21 Tali wrote: I focused a lot on spreading creep because I've seen it turn tides. And I do a decent job of it. But every time it turns out like this.
Pop out your queen, start spreading creep. You're proactively placing new tumors and going in 3 different directions to provide vision and flanks and increase wrap arounds, so on.
So you hit T2, you might have a few skirmishes here and there, a few scuffles. And the creep maintains.
And then mid-mid/end-mid game hits and the observer is out. Or he got his second Orbital up. 1 scan can kill 3 full jumps of tumors if it lands right. If they kill off your spawning tumor, well chances are you aren't gonna be able to get your Queen 3/4 across the map to make a new one.
And all of a sudden this creep highway you've been working on for 15-18 minutes is dwindling. And its doing it, right before the BIG BATTLE, when you need it the most. And before you know it, its mostly gone.
That is what I think its the real problem of creep. It requires a ton of focus and apm you could be putting into other things. And then its just so easy to get rid of later on. Yeah early creep tumors costing a scan is not a bad trade. But most Protoss pop an observer pretty early, then an obs + a zealot will wipe out 15 minutes of tumor hopping. And if you're mech and your push is like a snail a scan for 3 tumors is a bargain if it wins you the final battle.
I like the reverse creep idea a lot actually. You wouldn't feel so devastated when all that work is killed off. I completely agree with this. Unless you are playing against a noob, all opponents will destroy you hard work. Sometimes spreading creeps almost feels useless. Maybe each creep tumor (after it becomes invisible) should be as hard as morphing eggs? That way one scan will not be able to kill 3, and 1 zealot with an observer will not kill a big number of tumors fast.
If needed to spend so much time and effort to spread the creep it should be harder for the other side to stop it.
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Thematically Zerg are supposed to be the fiercest, deadliest evolution of natural predators ever. Given that, terrain really shouldn't be any obstacle to them, they should be able to slither over broken glass and not care. They should be able to go wherever they want whenever they want at top speed because they are more Rambo than Rambo.
To be honest a homefield advantage like Creep makes a ton more sense for Terrans - and I play Terran. Just thematically, Terrans are good at defending prepared terrain. Its what they do. It would make sense if the Terran army went slower off-road.
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On August 17 2010 18:39 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. That's actually a good idea
It's actually kind of a terrible idea.
So what you're saying is you want to give Toss/Terran players more incentive to go air?
Oh, and ZvZ creep has absolutely no effect then? Or would you change the mechanic there so that somehow the game distinguishes between your creep and their creep? What about overlapping creep?
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On August 19 2010 22:24 SoFFacet wrote: Thematically Zerg are supposed to be the fiercest, deadliest evolution of natural predators ever. Given that, terrain really shouldn't be any obstacle to them, they should be able to slither over broken glass and not care. They should be able to go wherever they want whenever they want at top speed because they are more Rambo than Rambo.
To be honest a homefield advantage like Creep makes a ton more sense for Terrans - and I play Terran. Just thematically, Terrans are good at defending prepared terrain. Its what they do. It would make sense if the Terran army went slower off-road.
I have to agree on this .. Zerg is very powerful if it's used correctly .. although it may sound biased as I am a Zerg player myself . I love it because it's hard to master and it's challenging to overwhelm other races . Not implying that other races are not hard to master though .
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On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: Adding something like regen, or cheaper/free Nydus Worms on creep would both encourage hit and run tactics.
Ok... so... you want a free instant and unlimited transport to the enemy's base? Please. Right now there's a risk to attempting a nydus "drop", which is good. Creating a drop situation with no risk is just stupid.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: Plus, when pushing an enemy won't know if the army you just retreated from his forces burrowed just out of sight to heal or fled to the rally for reinforcements. The Zerg ambush would return.
Who are you playing against that you think people are confused when you burrow? I thought they got rid of copper league.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote:Even better, let burrowed units be invisible while moving under creep, so when you're on your home turf you have the full advantage of surprise.
This is even more ridiculous than the free nydus worm idea. Really? Undetectable units? So you basically have invulnerable roaches, especially when you factor in the +regen thats part of your creep idea.
All these ideas are pretty inane. I'll be glad when bad zerg players stop coming up with retarded plans to make them better. That probably wont happen though.
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On August 19 2010 21:43 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:21 Tali wrote: I focused a lot on spreading creep because I've seen it turn tides. And I do a decent job of it. But every time it turns out like this.
Pop out your queen, start spreading creep. You're proactively placing new tumors and going in 3 different directions to provide vision and flanks and increase wrap arounds, so on.
So you hit T2, you might have a few skirmishes here and there, a few scuffles. And the creep maintains.
And then mid-mid/end-mid game hits and the observer is out. Or he got his second Orbital up. 1 scan can kill 3 full jumps of tumors if it lands right. If they kill off your spawning tumor, well chances are you aren't gonna be able to get your Queen 3/4 across the map to make a new one.
And all of a sudden this creep highway you've been working on for 15-18 minutes is dwindling. And its doing it, right before the BIG BATTLE, when you need it the most. And before you know it, its mostly gone.
That is what I think its the real problem of creep. It requires a ton of focus and apm you could be putting into other things. And then its just so easy to get rid of later on. Yeah early creep tumors costing a scan is not a bad trade. But most Protoss pop an observer pretty early, then an obs + a zealot will wipe out 15 minutes of tumor hopping. And if you're mech and your push is like a snail a scan for 3 tumors is a bargain if it wins you the final battle.
I like the reverse creep idea a lot actually. You wouldn't feel so devastated when all that work is killed off. I completely agree with this. Unless you are playing against a noob, all opponents will destroy you hard work. Sometimes spreading creeps almost feels useless. Maybe each creep tumor (after it becomes invisible) should be as hard as morphing eggs? That way one scan will not be able to kill 3, and 1 zealot with an observer will not kill a big number of tumors fast. If needed to spend so much time and effort to spread the creep it should be harder for the other side to stop it.
The enemy has to invest more resources into destroying Tumors than a Zerg does to spread them outside "attention". One scan against three Tumors is a good tradeoff for a Zerg. Just as Tali described it, covering the Map in creep is a big advantage for the Zerg and it would be unfair if the other races couldn´t counter that.
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On August 19 2010 22:24 SoFFacet wrote: Thematically Zerg are supposed to be the fiercest, deadliest evolution of natural predators ever. Given that, terrain really shouldn't be any obstacle to them, they should be able to slither over broken glass and not care. They should be able to go wherever they want whenever they want at top speed because they are more Rambo than Rambo.
To be honest a homefield advantage like Creep makes a ton more sense for Terrans - and I play Terran. Just thematically, Terrans are good at defending prepared terrain. Its what they do. It would make sense if the Terran army went slower off-road.
Creep isn't really a "homefield advantage" in the traditional sense, as you can take your advantage to the enemy's homefield. Granted its not an early-game thing, but you should most definitely start working on it right away. There are way too many good things about creep for me to worry about my units being too slow off it. I want creep everywhere. Mmmm free vision and therefore map control..
And really SoFFacet, Terrans do have a homefield advantage. Its called walling off. And the terran army is pretty slow already, slowing them more would be tragic.
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Yeah it is important to point out that Creep is nearly free and the only real cost involved is stopping the enemy from clearing it.
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On August 19 2010 23:53 Unentschieden wrote: Yeah it is important to point out that Creep is nearly free and the only real cost involved is stopping the enemy from clearing it. And...that's actually a large cost if a T actually roams with an army instead of try to be cheap and take out tumors with just a few rines. If one of your scans get 3 of my tumors I'd cry, and if I scan as T and find just 2 tumors I'd happily roll with that. It isn't like a T has to push deep into Z territory, T just have to chip away the border creeps and set up his defense lines a bit past the limits of the creep. Same thing really applies to P too.
In terms of the gameplay though, that is the only real cost. The problem is really more how from a design point of view, that turned into creep = good, therefore off creep = bad. It is a neat mechanic that provides interesting options, but the result is simply that any good P or T will keep a certain distance away from creep, and that's it. There is no reason for them to engage on creep if they don't have to, and there is no way for Z to force the creep issue on them.
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On August 19 2010 23:53 Unentschieden wrote: Yeah it is important to point out that Creep is nearly free and the only real cost involved is stopping the enemy from clearing it.
Time is a very important resource too you know. It takes a lot of time to spread creep, and to lose it so easily is a huge loss.
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I agree the feel of zerg is different now. Zerg is more like this growing cancer upon the land that will eventually consume everything.. instead of plain ol' swarmy. they're still kind of swarmy but now they're only really extra-swarmy lategame after creep is everywhere. swarmy swarmy swarmy.
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If the Terran is using a significant portion of his army and his scans to hunt Tumors you loose the cheap tumors but gain knowledge about the opponents units and positions while also wasting his Scanenergy. There is a lot you can do in that situation that is more valuable than a few Tumors. Slowly chipping away at your "border" is way preferable to just walking by without you even knowing about it.
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one more suggestion - remove those mechanic's obstaclest, that slow your creep spreadation( not sure if that word exist) i mean tumor need to spread its creep on maximum distance by the time you can set new tumor, now its like 50% of creep is spread, so you allways have to snipe the place for new tumors, also creep should go at least down from cliffs
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On August 20 2010 00:10 Unentschieden wrote: If the Terran is using a significant portion of his army and his scans to hunt Tumors you loose the cheap tumors but gain knowledge about the opponents units and positions while also wasting his Scanenergy. There is a lot you can do in that situation that is more valuable than a few Tumors. Slowly chipping away at your "border" is way preferable to just walking by without you even knowing about it. And ultimately, how does that information help you? It isn't that the information you get isn't valuable, it is just that there is very little to be done with it. In the BW equivalent, if we could force T to waste scans early on, Z has a huge advantage with lurkers and the ability for scourges to snipe vessels. That's really nonexistent in SC2, roaches have limited functionality and can't be massed, infestors can only use IT from burrow. We just keep on trying to spread creep and hope that they'll be out of position for some attack or waste precious mule energy for scan. However, T really doesn't have much urgency whereas Z, at the moment, really needs creep to be able to mount a significant ground attack.. I really can't help but thing that's not exactly how the mechanic should work.
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omg I fear blizzard has steered itself into a dead-end
to weak without creep, so no early pressure chances, somehow viable on creep, but despite the insane speed on creep, zerg units die in masses, because when you arrived at the enemy army, it doesnt matter if you are fast (except when kiting, preferably when the enemy has chargelots and forcefields)
imo best would be to remove the speed bonus completely, buff natural speed of zerg units, so they are capable for early pressure
but then creep loses its sense and such gimmicks somehow dont fit to sc (terran has too many of 'em)
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I used overlords once to make a creep highway. Man, what a fucking mistake that was. If you don't end the game right there, you're down about 5-6 overlords and supply capped like a buffoon.
I completely agree with the OP. Zerg units feel castrated because of the creep mechanic. Likewise, it forces a very passive play from BOTH sides of the equation. Protoss / Terran do not want to engage on the creep, zerg does not want to engage off the creep.
At the current state of the game, zerg just has way too many resources. Larva, creep, minerals, vespene. As such, there is just way too much shit to do as Zerg, and vs. decent players, the creep falls rapidly behind. Even if you win a skirmish, but lose all your creep tumors, what have you really gained? You cannot push out at all. Hydras are as slow as sentries. LIke how does that even make sense?? Protoss players know how fucking impossible it is to micro sentries to avoid anything. Now put that speed on a ranged DPS glass cannon, and well, it becomes a very painful story off creep.
I am not sure if the entire creep mechanic needs a fix, but some number tweaking is definitely in order. Make the hydra / roach faster off creep, not as substantial of a bonus on creep. Maybe lower the hydra DPS to help T/P compensate for this added mobility.
Its not that the creep provides an advantage. It surely does. The problem is that it is such a huge advantage that Zerg's mobility relies on the creep, which is too easily removed. It's such a large advantage that playing off creep is a crutch that shouldn't be present. It forces zerg players to play passively and encourages them to only stay on their side of the playground
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I think for now people need to spend more time with tumours and overlords. A big issue is overlord speed in spreading creep. I think it was Blizzard's intention to have something like a control group of overlords with your army after speed was researched. The upgrade used to be 50/50 remember - together with nydus needing creep to spawn. I think the mechanic got left behind a bit after those things changed.
Regardless of how much micro it takes in comparison to other races. I think skipping a spawn larvae early on (like when teching to lair) to create a tumour, and again when your expansion comes up can help speed the process. I see a general tendency of only making 1 or 2 tumours and using the self replicating mechanic afterwards. I think making 4-5 'starting' tumours would make a huge difference. The key here is to incorporate it within existing builds without getting destroyed because you really needed those 4 roaches. The overlord speed upgrade is one of many Zerg then REALLY needs and having a cloud of overlords following your army can get pretty irritating after a while. I guess it could help promote drop play. I guess this is one of those 'invent muta micro' moments for Zerg.
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On August 19 2010 23:10 driftme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 18:39 SubtleArt wrote:On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. That's actually a good idea It's actually kind of a terrible idea. So what you're saying is you want to give Toss/Terran players more incentive to go air? Oh, and ZvZ creep has absolutely no effect then? Or would you change the mechanic there so that somehow the game distinguishes between your creep and their creep? What about overlapping creep?
Giving them more incentive to go air is totally fine. If it ends up being imbalanced or vZ games become dominated by air then u tweak the units.
As for ZvZ, the matchup has a lot more pressing problems then a potential creep mechanic mix up
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Regardless of how much micro it takes in comparison to other races. I think skipping a spawn larvae early on (like when teching to lair) to create a tumour, and again when your expansion comes up can help speed the process. I see a general tendency of only making 1 or 2 tumours and using the self replicating mechanic afterwards. I think making 4-5 'starting' tumours would make a huge difference. The key here is to incorporate it within existing builds without getting destroyed because you really needed those 4 roaches.
no spawn larva in early game will hurt economy incredibly maybe give queen a creep tumor for free in the beginning?
but I still think that creep mechanic is something zerg doesnt need i wanna mobility 24/7!
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No, missing one spawn larva for a creep won't cripple Z that much especially in the FE builds, and in the case where Z plays safe and gets 3rd~4th queen it is pretty easy to have a bunch of tumors. Missing an injection only really hurts if you stay on one base. I found that in the case of FE, the early creep tumor is often essential to get me the mobility I need to move units to nat in time to defend.
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+ Show Spoiler +Dimaga goes onebase nydus rush with lings versus reactor hellions, GOOD CALL.
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No, missing one spawn larva for a creep won't cripple Z that much especially in the FE builds, and in the case where Z plays safe and gets 3rd~4th queen it is pretty easy to have a bunch of tumors. Missing an injection only really hurts if you stay on one base. I found that in the case of FE, the early creep tumor is often essential to get me the mobility I need to move units to nat in time to defend.
na, gonna try it out some time
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On August 20 2010 00:39 junemermaid wrote: I completely agree with the OP. Zerg units feel castrated because of the creep mechanic. Likewise, it forces a very passive play from BOTH sides of the equation. Protoss / Terran do not want to engage on the creep, zerg does not want to engage off the creep.
ye, good point here, the only dynamic matchup is zvz, where creep doesnt give advantage to any side, thus if it was like you dont move faster on enemy's creep, i imagine there would be same boring passive basesitting games, as we see it in other zerg matchups.
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I think that it wouldn't be to hard for blizzard to reverse the way The Creep works. Instead of making your units move faster on the creep, make enemies move slower. This, to me, makes a whole lot more sence. Looking at it, it looks like it would be squishy and sticky, something that only the zerg know how to navigate. This would also increase the swarmy feeling because you could surround enemies that are trying to retreat.
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I think the only problem is how slow hydras are off creep, i mean they're basically worthless because they can't get in a good arc fast enough to be as effective as they should be.
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On August 20 2010 02:15 EverEmber wrote: I think that it wouldn't be to hard for blizzard to reverse the way The Creep works. Instead of making your units move faster on the creep, make enemies move slower. This, to me, makes a whole lot more sence. Looking at it, it looks like it would be squishy and sticky, something that only the zerg know how to navigate. This would also increase the swarmy feeling because you could surround enemies that are trying to retreat.
The problem with slowing down your entire enemies force is it would take away their micro which isn't really what we want to do. However, I agree that since the creep obviously will be on your side of the map, it would fit better as a defensive role. If they were to implement this, I'd like the see the mechanic as 50% speeding up your own units and 50% slowing down your opponents', so it wouldn't be too overwhelming in either sense, but you'd still be getting the best of both worlds (50% as compared to the current mechanics' effectiveness).
Since the mechanic would be half slowing and half speed increasing, essentially it wouldn't be a direct nerf or buff but just a redesign and re-balancing. I think this would fit better with the fact that creep is going to be in a defensive position more often than it's in a offensive positioning obviously, since it's on your side of the map. A creep mechanic that strictly increases your units speed has too much emphasis on an offensive role which conflicts with where the creep usually is (your side of the map; defensive positioning).
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Creep is fine, in my opinion. The real problem is how much attention it takes to spread it vs how much attention non-zergs have to pay to remove it. A 15 minute investment can be wiped in a few minutes with a zealot and an observer.
Just make creep auto-spread. Plant a tumor, rally it to the enemy's nat, and have it automatically crawl in that direction. One less mechanic crying for the Zerg's attention.
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On August 20 2010 03:40 Cotonou wrote: Creep is fine, in my opinion. The real problem is how much attention it takes to spread it vs how much attention non-zergs have to pay to remove it. A 15 minute investment can be wiped in a few minutes with a zealot and an observer.
Just make creep auto-spread. Plant a tumor, rally it to the enemy's nat, and have it automatically crawl in that direction. One less mechanic crying for the Zerg's attention.
I don't believe that is the right approach to solving the problem.The solution isn't to make it easier to spread, but rather make it harder to kill. If a zerg takes 10 minutes to build his creep it should take comparable time for the opponent to remove it.
A mechanic that simply made creep tumors "harder" to kill as time passes would make creep a lot more interesting. That way the opponent has an incentive to prevent a zerg from spreading creep in the first place, as opposed to waiting until he is ready to push out to clear it. It also rewards zergs who try to spread creep earlier, since it will be more "secure".
It would be a rather simple change to make once you figure out the best way to making creep tumors "harder" to kill. Maybe it builds up hp over time to some reasonable limit. Maybe it gets an armor bonus every few minutes. Having creep spread itself removes complexity from the game, while making it harder to kill would add more complexity and strategy, which is what you want in a RTS
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Zerg creep tumors should be like the zerg cocoon. High health, high armor, but visible to enemy units. When zerg gets lair tech and researches, they can burrow the tumor for that extra longevity.
I also think it would be interesting for drones to be able to morph into creep tumors.
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Umm to those suggesting for creep to be made harder to remove over time. You realize a lot of the complaints are already about how defensive Z is, right? Why are you making a suggestion that only places more reason for opponents to be offensive early on and force Z to defend and play the long, macro game?
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On August 20 2010 05:09 Ecael wrote: Umm to those suggesting for creep to be made harder to remove over time. You realize a lot of the complaints are already about how defensive Z is, right? Why are you making a suggestion that only places more reason for opponents to be offensive early on and force Z to defend and play the long, macro game?
If the opponent is forced to go out earlier to kill creep it gives the zerg opportunities to be offensive, though not in the traditional case of direct attacks on the opponents base. But the zerg aren't a direct attack, smash your base with my units kind of race. That is terran. Zerg is offensive in a guerrilla warfare kind of way, picking off weakness in the opponent.
If creep gets harder to remove over time then there are really 3 responses to take. 1) If the opponent turtles up then he has creep at his door that he can't clear off instantly allowing for more aggression by the zerg player. 2)If he moves out to clear creep with only a fraction of his force, he will be fighting on zerg's turf and can get easily surrounded and taken out by the zerg army. 3)If the opponent sends his whole army out his base, well then it is just a push/all-in and they are being more aggressive. The zerg can either be defensive and try to defend the push, or attempt a backstab.
Right now option 1 doesn't happen, because creep would take several minutes to reach a base and is cleared very quickly. Option 2 doesn't happen because all it takes is a couple marines or zealots to clear creep quickly, so there is no risk in doing it. Pretty much option 3 is what happens at some point in the game and the zerg gets stomped.
Of course this is not the end all solution. But if the change is combined with other minor changes like increasing base speed and decreasing creep bonus, and improved early game for zerg, it can have a larger impact on the match-up in general.
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Also to elaborate a bit more on why making creep harder to kill would open up the options I mentioned above, it will simply give the zerg more time to react. If you notice your opponent is trying to take out your creep, you will have time to access the situation and decide the appropriate response. Right now tumors are so weak, they can clear a large chunk before a zerg player can even react to prevent it.
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Except the argument is that Zerg's offensive capabilities are stunted off creep. What weaknesses are there for you to exploit if Zerg is really suffering off creep? If guerrilla warfare is hard before, a change to how hard to kill creep won't affect that.
Well, so let's say that 1 isn't viable at all, that leaves us 2 and 3. With creep getting harder to kill, 2 would seem viable, except not. Your opponent isn't going to be pushing to kill all of your creep, he'll deal with the ones most threatening to him, to the edge of the creep spread and consequently easy to kill. The problems Z suffer from now isn't fixed, you still have 3 as the most likely situation like you said.
However, what's the point of mixing in a creep removal change to other changes like increasing base speed/decreasing creep bonus and an improved early game for Z? Like, balance wise, it is much likely that we'd see one of these implemented then a bunch at once, and making creep harder to remove just feels like it is at the very bottom of priority list.
Also to elaborate a bit more on why making creep harder to kill would open up the options I mentioned above, it will simply give the zerg more time to react. If you notice your opponent is trying to take out your creep, you will have time to access the situation and decide the appropriate response. Right now tumors are so weak, they can clear a large chunk before a zerg player can even react to prevent it. That won't be true if the difficulty of creep removal is directly related to how long the tumor is there. Again, T and P won't need to (and won't) clear all creep. At the moment, they'll clear the outer fringes, and then along with a big push murder the rest coming up. The former won't be affected by a change like that and the latter won't be a huge deal breaker.
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The idea of making enemy ground units slower on creep is both logically and practical, it is beneficial to you if you do, but if you don't, you don't lose anything.Then again, it makes sense, creep is slimy, sticky, biological grossnes substance that envelopes the zerg, you don't see a zerg building without creep.
Then again, we would be faced with a zerg vs zerg problem, would the enemy zerg be slowed down, does it have to be allied, or what? It could be a chemical recognition thing, where chemicals coating hostile zerg trigger small amounts of slime and triggers tiny muscles that contract to pull the enemy away, any protoss and terran would be recognized as threats. (c'mon, when will there be terrans helping toss helping zerg in the game universe?)
But then we would be faced with the problem of queens and crawlers, if enemy units are slowed down, then it would take a century to get the crawlers and queens from one side of the hatchery to the next. If you simply sped up the move ment of queens and crwlers, they would be confused with frontline units, you would have overlords dropping creep, queens, and drones, the queens would plant tumors, the drones would take root and start attacking, the queens adding backup and transfusing th crawlers, the nyduses would popup and pour out infestors, launching terrans and MCing the more powerful units.
Would you want that? No.
But the Koreans would, but THEIR zerg is ALREADY op.
Zerg is broken, but this is
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.
hahaha, there hasnt even been 1 balance patch yet. Have a little faith in Blizzard! I am sure they will not let us down.
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On August 19 2010 23:34 driftme wrote: Ok... so... you want a free instant and unlimited transport to the enemy's base? Please. Right now there's a risk to attempting a nydus "drop", which is good. Creating a drop situation with no risk is just stupid. There would still be a build time, it would either be lower or there would be less cost. And this would only be if they let you creep up their base with an overlord first.
Who are you playing against that you think people are confused when you burrow? I thought they got rid of copper league. People aren't omniscient, so long as you don't try to burrow once they already have detection or within sight of them they can't know for certain where you are.
This is even more ridiculous than the free nydus worm idea. Really? Undetectable units? So you basically have invulnerable roaches, especially when you factor in the +regen thats part of your creep idea.
All these ideas are pretty inane. I'll be glad when bad zerg players stop coming up with retarded plans to make them better. That probably wont happen though. Right now you can see moving burrowed units even without detection, I'd get rid of that.
Also, stop being an asshole, it makes your already feeble points even weaker.
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On August 20 2010 03:40 Cotonou wrote: Creep is fine, in my opinion. The real problem is how much attention it takes to spread it vs how much attention non-zergs have to pay to remove it. A 15 minute investment can be wiped in a few minutes with a zealot and an observer.
Just make creep auto-spread. Plant a tumor, rally it to the enemy's nat, and have it automatically crawl in that direction. One less mechanic crying for the Zerg's attention.
You're not sitting there for 15 min watching the creep though. Micro-wise, its harder to kill the tumors than it is to place em =]
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 20 2010 05:51 Ecael wrote:Except the argument is that Zerg's offensive capabilities are stunted off creep. What weaknesses are there for you to exploit if Zerg is really suffering off creep? If guerrilla warfare is hard before, a change to how hard to kill creep won't affect that. Well, so let's say that 1 isn't viable at all, that leaves us 2 and 3. With creep getting harder to kill, 2 would seem viable, except not. Your opponent isn't going to be pushing to kill all of your creep, he'll deal with the ones most threatening to him, to the edge of the creep spread and consequently easy to kill. The problems Z suffer from now isn't fixed, you still have 3 as the most likely situation like you said. However, what's the point of mixing in a creep removal change to other changes like increasing base speed/decreasing creep bonus and an improved early game for Z? Like, balance wise, it is much likely that we'd see one of these implemented then a bunch at once, and making creep harder to remove just feels like it is at the very bottom of priority list. Show nested quote +Also to elaborate a bit more on why making creep harder to kill would open up the options I mentioned above, it will simply give the zerg more time to react. If you notice your opponent is trying to take out your creep, you will have time to access the situation and decide the appropriate response. Right now tumors are so weak, they can clear a large chunk before a zerg player can even react to prevent it. That won't be true if the difficulty of creep removal is directly related to how long the tumor is there. Again, T and P won't need to (and won't) clear all creep. At the moment, they'll clear the outer fringes, and then along with a big push murder the rest coming up. The former won't be affected by a change like that and the latter won't be a huge deal breaker.
First I want to say you make several good points. This is an interesting debate but let me see if I can answer some of your concerns.
What I like about this rather simple change is that it won't dramatically impact late game encounters. A max army should be able to one shot tumors. That is what max armies do, kill stuff fast. Late games are much less of a problem for zerg than early-mid game, so any change so aim to benefit zerg in that phase without impacting the more balanced late game.
What the change could impact however are earlier pushes. How? There are two cases. Case one the opponent is pushing and decides not to kill the tumors. Then he is fighting on creep and zerg has the advantage (unless you believe creep doesn't give any advantage). Case two is the opponent takes the time to clear the creep before engaging an army. In that case having tougher creep tumors, that couldn't be taken out in one shot would delay the push. Basically you are able to trade the tumor for time, and even 5-10 seconds could mean the difference between getting that next wave of units, or moving your crawlers into the right position.
Right now, no smart player would opt not to kill tumors because they are cleared out instantly with a scan and a-move command. However, if it took another 3 or 4 volleys to kill a tumor then the attacker has a choice to make, while presently there really isn't one.
In regards to mixing it with other changes, I'm of the opinion as few changes need to be made. I believe small changes that add choice will go a lot further towards balancing the game than big which can have unforeseen consequences. Maybe its because I'm a programmer and know how what appear to be simple changes can have terrible affects on a large complex system like SC2. Tougher tumors is a small change. Giving creep less of a speed bonus is a small change. I'm more advocating small changes than any idea I put forth myself.
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Tiny changes also have the advantage that you can test them yourself via the Editor. Good luck grabbing enough traction for anyone to notice though... Maybe also faster creepspreading and receding.
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I think I said this in an earlier post, but yeah, make zerg have normal movement speed on and off creep, and slow down opponents (P & T) on creep. Enemy zerg have no affect.
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I dunno, your horde of overlords and some queens can rebuild dead creep tumors pretty quick.
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I think IdrA showed today how cool creep spreading is, and how vital it is. Played at this level Creep spreading is fucking awesome just to watch. Tho I think, as it is working right now it is very hard to master, and it favours the 1% at the top ten folds what it does with everyone else.
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On August 20 2010 03:26 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 02:15 EverEmber wrote: I think that it wouldn't be to hard for blizzard to reverse the way The Creep works. Instead of making your units move faster on the creep, make enemies move slower. This, to me, makes a whole lot more sence. Looking at it, it looks like it would be squishy and sticky, something that only the zerg know how to navigate. This would also increase the swarmy feeling because you could surround enemies that are trying to retreat. The problem with slowing down your entire enemies force is it would take away their micro which isn't really what we want to do. However, I agree that since the creep obviously will be on your side of the map, it would fit better as a defensive role. If they were to implement this, I'd like the see the mechanic as 50% speeding up your own units and 50% slowing down your opponents', so it wouldn't be too overwhelming in either sense, but you'd still be getting the best of both worlds (50% as compared to the current mechanics' effectiveness). Since the mechanic would be half slowing and half speed increasing, essentially it wouldn't be a direct nerf or buff but just a redesign and re-balancing. I think this would fit better with the fact that creep is going to be in a defensive position more often than it's in a offensive positioning obviously, since it's on your side of the map. A creep mechanic that strictly increases your units speed has too much emphasis on an offensive role which conflicts with where the creep usually is (your side of the map; defensive positioning).
How about this...
...let's call the amount that creep currently increase speed X. What if zerg units gained no speed bonus on creep, but all of them become X/2 faster than they currently are off-creep. Then, make creep slow down enemies by X/2. This would help out Zerg early aggression (X/2 boost) and defense (X/2 slow), and it might reduce the incentive to spread creep (X/2 advantage instead of X), but I think there's plenty incentive already (map control!).
Also, this would be less likely to inadvertently imbalance matchups than other solutions like hp regen on creep, because it's based in the same mechanics
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If the opponent is forced to go out earlier to kill creep it gives the zerg opportunities to be offensive, though not in the traditional case of direct attacks on the opponents base. But the zerg aren't a direct attack, smash your base with my units kind of race. That is terran. Zerg is offensive in a guerrilla warfare kind of way, picking off weakness in the opponent.
reapers hellions and banshees, but no, zergs the guerrilla one zerg definitely are the base smashers, thats why theyr so reliant on macro as for slowing down enemies on creep, theyr already slow enough, to make it slower would kill the games flow more
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I really like the mechanic. I would suggest reduce the bonus speed by 20% (that is make the bonus base+X*0.8%) and increase the base speed of units by that amount (base+0.2X%). This still makes creep very very useful but makes units not perform awful off the creep. The only issue is that I don't think lings should get any faster off creep, speedlings are already very fast.
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lol, thats why you have speedling early on , you surround and lock the enemy there , roaches until the roaches come and rape :D
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What if creep speed was baked into normal movement for Zerg (except for Queens, perhaps?). Creep would, instead of a speed increase, give +1 armor. (but only for the owner of the creep, perhaps)
Zerg defending on creep early game would have an advantage, and it would still be pretty beneficial to spread creep all across the map - But if you didn't, you would still have the mobility. (and having Hydras as an attacking force would suddenly be interesting)
[Edit] Discussed it with a few friends.
If Zerglings, Queens and Roaches did not get the speed buff baked-in, this could potentially work.
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Terran / Protoss units being little slower on creep would be very nice and interesting idea.
Imagine poping creep with overlords on enemy mineral line to decrease probe/scv speed probes , drones and scv's hover , it wouldnt do any good
What if creep speed was baked into normal movement for Zerg (except for Queens, perhaps?). Creep would, instead of a speed increase, give +1 armor. (but only for the owner of the creep, perhaps)
Zerg defending on creep early game would have an advantage, and it would still be pretty beneficial to spread creep all across the map - But if you didn't, you would still have the mobility. (and having Hydras as an attacking force would suddenly be interesting) how about they get a yamato cannon instead , i guess yamatolings wouldbe pretty decent
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Maybe this unit will help in HotS, whatever it is( or is that a tumor?) :p + Show Spoiler +
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Wait, this thread is still alive? How did I miss this...
On September 02 2010 22:43 quarky wrote:Maybe this unit will help in HotS, whatever it is( or is that a tumor?) :p + Show Spoiler + That looks like a very sick Roach.
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I just hope they would give the queen 50 energy when it spawns so you can inject larva's and put a creep tumor down. I think this will help zerg alot against early aggression.
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Since everyone's making suggestions as to how the creep mechanic could work, here's mine - rate (and possibly distance?) of creep spread increases with the number of creep tumors already on the map. That way, early game, it wouldn't be imbalanced because creep would spread at the same rate as before, but late game it becomes much easier to keep up with the enemy's increased detection and efficiency in killing the tumors. This keeps blizzard's mechanic that they wanted with no need to fudge any of the numbers, while making it a bit more practical for zergs to take advantage of in the late game. IMO early creep works wonderfully and doesn't need changing, as when you FE (which is typical), you'll be playing defensive anyway and you won't need creep spread halfway across the map, only creep around the choke to your nat.
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It would be fine if ovie poop didn't require lair tech...
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On September 02 2010 20:05 LSGamer wrote: Dammit people stop trying to lower the APM ceiling to Terrans level!
And Hydra speed is the same as a zealot. Stop whining and get over it What does unit speeds have to do with APM rofl?
And what does the speed of the Zealot have to do with a flaw in the creep mechanic rofl.
Don't try to throw down a Chewbacca Defense. The Creep is an interesting mechanic yes, but the fact is that the Zerg's mobility is drastically cut off creep, which is probably why we're seeing more Ling/Muta play now a days as opposed to anything else, as mutas and lings are the least effected by creep.
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I also really love spreading the creep. It has a great zerg TAKING OVER THE WORLD feeling.
But the unit speed difference really does encourage zerg to play too defensively for my taste (no amount of APM and concentration can get creep to an opponents base on a big map when you want to start attacking)
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On September 03 2010 05:03 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 20:05 LSGamer wrote: Dammit people stop trying to lower the APM ceiling to Terrans level!
And Hydra speed is the same as a zealot. Stop whining and get over it What does unit speeds have to do with APM rofl? And what does the speed of the Zealot have to do with a flaw in the creep mechanic rofl. Don't try to throw down a Chewbacca Defense. The Creep is an interesting mechanic yes, but the fact is that the Zerg's mobility is drastically cut off creep, which is probably why we're seeing more Ling/Muta play now a days as opposed to anything else, as mutas and lings are the least effected by creep.
You guys are just looking at it the wrong way. Zerg's mobility isn't cut off when they're off creep, it's boosted when they're on creep! How's that for a glass half full mentality? ;-)
Haha no in all seriousness though, this is just a new Zerg mechanic that Zerg players have to get used to. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it not only gives you a great deal of mobility but it also gives you a ton of free scouting if you cover as much of the map as possible in creep.
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On September 03 2010 05:21 Achaia wrote: You guys are just looking at it the wrong way. Zerg's mobility isn't cut off when they're off creep, it's boosted when they're on creep! How's that for a glass half full mentality? ;-)
Haha no in all seriousness though, this is just a new Zerg mechanic that Zerg players have to get used to. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it not only gives you a great deal of mobility but it also gives you a ton of free scouting if you cover as much of the map as possible in creep.
Incorrect. "Great deal of mobility" but only on creep and less mobility off of creep. The thread is about the slowness of Zerg off creep and the fact that it's impossible to have creep where it's critically needed, especially on offense.
The argument is if creep is more of a burden than a bonus to Zerg. As it is currently it feels more like the former than the latter.
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On September 02 2010 20:05 LSGamer wrote: Dammit people stop trying to lower the APM ceiling to Terrans level!
And Hydra speed is the same as a zealot. Stop whining and get over it Zealots can be upgraded, Hydras can not. Hydras take a lot of gas. And the army that the Zealot is with functions very differently.
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I'am starting to get used to the creep mechanic and I actually like it, even if I'd like hydras to be a little faster out creep. However I would like the idea that : - the starting hatch would be able to spwan one creep tumor, or one tumor is here at the beginning OR - Queen Starts with 50 energy, but this one would be quite OP after the first queen to pop because of the Transfusion.
Because the starting creep is fine, but I hate to have to sacrifice either one larva injection. Btw making a 2nd queen early is kind of standard now.
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It seems silly that Zerg are being saddled with a mechanic that forces them to turtle when we know that's Terran's job. Give Creep to Terran and call it Freedom, and give Zerglings stimpacks and call it Brood War Adrenal Glands.
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I do like the creep mechanic, however because it is so critical to balance, i.e. z wins on it, z loses off it, it makes attacks on the enemy base next to impossible. For if a zerg army is weaker than a T or P army off creep in the open, if you add in a fortified position for the enemy AND being off creep, it begs the question why a Z player would ever attack.
This is why you find the standard action of Z is to expand instead of attack. Whilst not entirely imbalanced (either way), I feel this cuts off Z's playstyle options, and pushes them into a defencive/boring gameplan more often than not.
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A bit more thinking (I clearly need a real job, spending so much time thinking about this -_-) helped me clarify my thoughts a bit better on one aspect of this.
A defensive race is most powerful when fighting near their base, or after having had time to set up. This is clear with Terran, as they are most powerful when fighting at their own ramp or at a choke. With Protoss it's more mixed, as Terran units on a ramp aren't too horribly handicapped. An offensive race is the converse, they are most capable when fighting at their opponent's base. This was true of Zerg in Brood War, considering that if they were fighting at their own front door they would have limited abilities to flank, and reinforcements would be vulnerable as they spawn. More importantly, fighting at the opponent's base meant that you could retreat if you had to. ZvT illustrates this brilliantly, as most of the early game was spent with the Zerg taking Zerglings and Mutalisks to the Terran base in order to force him to keep his units at home, or to buy time for the Mutalisks to slowly wear away at any force the Terran sends out. The Zerg army in BW would break if stressed too hard, and thus needed the ability to be flexible so that a single forced stand wouldn't lead to defeat.
There are no offensive races in StarCraft 2. Enemy walls are so strong, and early Zerg units so slow, that you can't take the fight to the enemy. With creep the Zerg are most powerful fighting at home. The risk of a Zergling backstab is severely lessened by the enemy's ability to summon their wall at nearly any time, and Mutas control so much less effectively than the perfect control in BW that Turrets and Marines can hold much more easily. This is part of the reason that Mutas are built now more to contain than to harass, given that any attempt to harass is likely to lead to heavy losses. It isn't until late game that creep will have spread far enough to open most of the map to engagement, and a race can't be offensive if it's limited to that late in the game, after innumerable pushes must already have been fought off.
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since its in tune with the thread ill post here why i dislike creep
"even inject larvae is easy enough, adding the spread creep mechanic too is what i think made zerg UP first: it allowed blizz to design units weaker off creep, second: it requires much more effort since its a second necessary mechanic, and third: its so easy to destroy compared to put down"
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
I agree with this. It makes more sense, because then certain Zerg units wouldn't have to move so slow off of the creep--like hydras and teir 1 roaches.
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On August 17 2010 16:13 SpiciestZerg wrote: Hydras' speed is really sad, but other than that I really like the new creep mechanic. It feels very Zerg; you're infesting the map itself. We had that in Broodwar... hatcheries & colonies were used to spread creep. I KINDA miss that... crawlers don't spread creep at all... but then they can be mobilized a bit...
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yeah the general concept of the zerg really went down the drain... but they got time enough to fix it.
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On September 29 2010 02:08 chimthegrim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. I agree with this. It makes more sense, because then certain Zerg units wouldn't have to move so slow off of the creep--like hydras and teir 1 roaches.
I actually think reversing the creep affect would just make things worst if zerg units have the same speed off creep. Creep will only affect the enemies ground units, air will be unaffected. This will just make air harass and drop play stronger against zerg now because zergs ground units no longer have the speed bonus on creep. This means they are slower relative to the speed of air units. So all those annoying MMM drops will be even stronger because medivacs will be able to move units even faster than zerg can position units.
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How does everyone here do their creep? I used to go 14 gas, 14 spawn, 15 overlord, 16 fast expand (depending on what I scout), but now I find myself delaying the fast expand a bit and using the second queen just for creep tumors before expanding, and then using her for my natural queen. Even destroyable, I find the sight it grants extremely useful. It also lets me get some nice spine crawlers at ramps just a little quicker than I was before.
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On August 17 2010 16:46 Osmoses wrote: I think creep spreading actually enchances the zerg feel, they infest the landscape, but the way it works now is a bit meh, because as the OP says, without creep you're useless. I think it should take a lot more effort to stop creep spreading than just killing a few tumors. Fights against zerg I feel should have a large emphasis on preventing creep spread, but at the moment all I gotta do is get a raven or scan once or twice and the creep takes several huge steps back.
I agree with this. Seems like the mechanic is great but there are two problems: 1) Zerg are too slow off creep. 2) Creep is too easy to remove.
Both appear to have simple, non-game-breaking solutions. #1) Raise roach and hydra speed off creep while keeping it the same on creep (lessening the incremental benefit of roach speed on creep). #2) Give creep tumors A TON more hp - like, nexus level HP. We can justify this by saying that the tumor is buried so far under ground you have to basically throw down bunker bombs worth of firepower to totally kill the things.
My qualification: I like games and I don't play Zerg, so I'm unbiased. I'm a thoroughly mediocre Protoss player. But it's pretty obvious to everyone (who isn't just playing politics/bias) that Zerg needs <3 and these two changes seem pretty solid to me.
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. why only HotS? There will still have LotV way later but still this isnt the last hope
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I don't understand why they don't just reduce creep bonus speed, and buff the base speed of a few units like the Hydralisk, Roach (before speed), Queen (off creep back to original beta speed), and Ultralisk. I'm not talking major speed buffs, like changing hydra from 2.25 to 2.35 for example. Just a little push to make it just a little faster and a little more mobile... Same with making burrowed roaches slightly faster...
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The problem with the Zerg for me largely revolves around the creep mechanic. The Zerg is supposed to be a mobile, offensively focused race, but the fact that its ability to be offensive and mobile revolves around staying on creep takes that design and forces it into a defensive, reactionary style for which it is ill equipped. This is less of an issue in the late game with a good Zerg player that's able to expand the creep regularly, but it really limits the Zerg's options to take any sort of initiative in the early and mid-game. An offensively geared race shouldn't be forced to consistently engage the enemy on its own home turf or else suffer from a major disadvantage. That's the exact opposite of offensive.
It's a bit of a paradox in the Zerg design. It might be a different story if the Zerg had the tools to turtle and defend in a cost-efficient manner, but so far that really doesn't seem to be the case. It also seems to take an inordinate amount of time for Zerg to actually climb the tech tree compared to the other two races, which really does seem to make it a lot more difficult for Zerg players to bring a match into the late-game where they have some better tools to work with.
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Creep management is hard to execute but it is a really good scouting, intimidating, and strategical technique. I'd say to all the zerg players be proud of their race because maybe is the only race nowadays wich require some skill to play. The other two are too much intuitive, less apm demandant, and with no depth at all. Maybe you win less but the victory tastes better.
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. Sigh.....
I get it. Hydras are slow off creep. There damn fast on creep. Keep your hydras on creep then. spread your creep with an overlord/1 queen right outside his base if you want. Also, speedlings are redonkulously fast on creep, not really that slow off creep. Banelings are game enders on creep against a bio ball and still pretty damn effective off creep (especially with upgrade).
So, I think your point is that, you think that if all zerg units got the speed bonus everywhere that you would lean more towards thinkin its balanced.. w/e do it. I'm down for blizzard to try just about anything cause im so sick of this dogma. Also, fun fact that zergs dont want you to know: Creep gives them sight!!!!!
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On August 17 2010 16:31 triumph wrote: creep spreading is one of the coolest parts of SC2. Don't blame the mechanic, blame the early game unit design.
Why the hell not blame a stupid mechanic? A mechanic that seems awesome at first but is in fact a huge constraint to everything that is zerg. Every unit but the zergling is so slow off of creep they can be kited by so many things.
Yes it's cool IN THEORY but blizzard honestly balances the speed of zerg units around their creep speed and that turns creep into a necessity instead of the bonus I thought it was supposed to be initially.
Getting another queen out is not exactly viable as it FURTHER slows down the zerg's already slow as hell lair tech.
A single observer or a few scans completely annihilates a creep highway that took the previous 15 minutes to build up.
It's a big fat "HERE IS MY ARMY" red flag that people won't cross because they don't have to. Zerg units are so laughable ineffective without the creep prior to a few t3 units.
I'd be fine with the creep mechanic if the zerg didn't have to base their entire existence on it.
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Nerf the creep, buff the units basic speed. Will still be useful for defending, but you won't be as dependent on it.
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It'd be nice if tumors that spread gained back the ability to spread if the tumor it makes dies. As far as I know, it doesn't? This would at least make spreading creep far from the base a bit easier. Being required to either spread creep from the queen at the base or run it out to the front lines to start spreading again doesn't feel right. This way they'd have to constantly push it back, not just once and force us to start over or lose a queen trying to keep it up.
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On August 17 2010 17:49 Swede wrote: An idea that I've been thinking over is actually to combine that ridiculously silly "nest" ability in the recent troll patch with creep spread.
Instead of having a queen moving round the map spreading creep, the queen can use "nest" which basically attaches it to a hatchery. The queen can then use "creep spread" for the same amount of energy, but rather than placing a creep tumour, it increases the radius that creep spreads from the hatchery. That way, to remove the creep you must actually destroy the hatchery producing it, rather than just cruising across the map with a raven/observer killing all the tumours.
Perhaps when hatcheries are connected by creep (which would take longer this way), the creep could begin spawning in a radius around the center between those two hatcheries, at an increased rate.
Another way to do it would be that each "creep spread" increases the rate at which creep spreads each time, so the longer you have a queen "nesting" and using this spell the faster the creep will spread.
It would also make turtling something to be thought about because you won't just be able to remove all the creep when you leave your base.
Anyway, I'm not expecting this to be implemented at all, but I think it's worth thinking outside the box with the creep issues.
I love this idea. Could work it a couple ways. An alternative to your idea would be that no nesting is needed, but to get rid of creep tumors you have to kill the queen. I like this less because it could be a bit OP, essentially you have to win the game to get rid of creep tumors.
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. Look at your creep spread now back at TLOs, now back at your creep now back at TLO. Sadly your creep spread isn't like his, but if you stopped blaming balance and start actually working on it, you could be good like him. What's in your GSL? Back at me. It's Fruitdealer the zerg player you love. LOOK again. The zergs are now diamonds. Anything is possible when your creep spread is good. I'm on an infestor.
Disclaimer: + Show Spoiler +This post was made for the luls
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Honestly, I feel that while the creep is a major hindrance to Zerg race as a whole, I don't think it's the main issue. Sure, it's very difficult to be aggressive with a hydra/roach army, but when you take a closer look at it, there's a bigger issue. The hydralisk is too easy to counter.
When Blizzard made the Zerg race, they gave each unit quite a unique role rather than a versatile role. What do I mean by that? When you look at the big picture, hydras are the damage dealer. They are by no means a meatshield. A tier 2 unit that has 80hp is just flat out laughable in SC2. Marauders, a tier 1.5 unit, have 125hp AND 1 armor? A hydralisk army without roaches to soak up the damage is just asking to get steamrolled. I don't care how much DPS a hydralisk can output, it doesn't mean crap when they melt in seconds. Wait, marauders can't hit air? Oh, it doesn't matter, our mineral sink is great anti-air by itself.
Terran have tanks that completely obliterate hydras, and Protoss have templars and colossus. And when you combine the fact that it's impossible micro hydralisks off-creep against gateway units or even stimmed units. You have a powerful unit that just can't deal powerful damage before it dies.
That's the problem here, if you go hydras, you're fairly committed to hydra/roach since the combination is fairly gas and money heavy. You barely even have enough minerals to dump into a mineral sink that becomes fairly worthless in midgame especially with no upgrades (lings). We all know that Zerg works great in numbers, but if you go roach/hydra, you will most likely not have anything else in significant numbers except going for some infestors in small numbers.
But all in all, 80hp? really? There needs to be some sort of health buff/speed buff/damage nerf to make the hydralisk a more versatile unit. Because right now they can only deal damage, but their counters will deal even more damage to them. SC1 hydralisks were perfect. You can mass them in compensation to mediocre health, they had great versatility, good against several units, but also not overpowering by the fact that they only dealt half damage to light units. A great balance.
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On September 29 2010 09:02 LegendaryZ wrote: The problem with the Zerg for me largely revolves around the creep mechanic. The Zerg is supposed to be a mobile, offensively focused race, but the fact that its ability to be offensive and mobile revolves around staying on creep takes that design and forces it into a defensive, reactionary style for which it is ill equipped. This is less of an issue in the late game with a good Zerg player that's able to expand the creep regularly, but it really limits the Zerg's options to take any sort of initiative in the early and mid-game. An offensively geared race shouldn't be forced to consistently engage the enemy on its own home turf or else suffer from a major disadvantage. That's the exact opposite of offensive.
It's a bit of a paradox in the Zerg design. It might be a different story if the Zerg had the tools to turtle and defend in a cost-efficient manner, but so far that really doesn't seem to be the case.
I think this is pretty spot on; designing part of the race for a certain style, and then making a very important mechanic run counter to that style.
Maybe if you had drones being able to turn into creep tumors or something, i.e. Zerg being able to generate some creep without creeping there. Sort of like Terran building a bunker, Zerg building a creep geyser.
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I'd like them to add upgrades at higher tiers that make units like the Hydra faster off of creep. It'd just be like in BW, Zerg gets to break out and do some damage at hive.
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On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
Hell yeah. Great replay. I wish every imbalanced thread would be closed by a post like this one.
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On September 30 2010 03:25 kmkkmk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
Hell yeah. Great replay. I wish every imbalanced thread would be closed by a post like this one.
An ignorant one that basically was a wall of "l2p"?
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imo the creep mechanic makes sc2 zerg feel like the sc:bw Terran zergs have to stay at home and are limited to where ever the creep network is limited to what made zergs so unique in sc:bw was their mobility. easy to maintain map control
zergs in sc2 however, need to establish that creep network before anything can get done not unlike terrans and their critical mass of 3/3 units or spider mine fields.
(note: im not saying that it is a bad thing, im just noting on the differences between sc2 and sc:bw zerg styles)
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On September 30 2010 03:29 deepstyle wrote: imo the creep mechanic makes sc2 zerg feel like the sc:bw Terran zergs have to stay at home and are limited to where ever the creep network is limited to what made zergs so unique in sc:bw was their mobility. easy to maintain map control
zergs in sc2 however, need to establish that creep network before anything can get done not unlike terrans and their critical mass of 3/3 units or spider mine fields.
(note: im not saying that it is a bad thing, im just noting on the differences between sc2 and sc:bw zerg styles)
Agree, played terran in BW and switched to Z to have a more dynamic and agressive race .. but now Z feels a bitg like BW metal terran .. There is still the possibility to play dynamic with muta / ling however i got more successful when slowly extending and macroing .. maybe this is the reason why there are so many "imba" threads, Z is not that zergish anymore, but people try to play it zergish. It is just a completely different race with a different playstyle.
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The main problem is quite simple. Creep isn't a bonus, it's a prerequisite. That's the #1 problem.
The other of course being how stupidly easy it is to completely shut down creep tumors.
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I like the creep mechanic the way it is, because it means i have more visibility of the map. the only unit that i think is too slow right now is the hydra. In BW, a zerg player with out hydra's was a losing player. In SC2, hydras are sometimes more of a liability than an asset.
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On September 30 2010 03:42 JTWStephens wrote: The main problem is quite simple. Creep isn't a bonus, it's a prerequisite. That's the #1 problem.
The other of course being how stupidly easy it is to completely shut down creep tumors.
To be honest, i think it is not worth the effort, hydra/roach/infrstor are kind of slowpush units even with creep ;-). I put some tumors in the beginning to connect main and nat and cover some dark edges of the main (proxies!), that's it. Sling/Bling/muta to harrass while macroing up and build some roach and/or hydra army to do the final push .. When i need a highway, i prefer ovies spawning creep .. that's easier. Anybody verified in the unittester that creep is such an advantage ?
(ok ok, i am a gold noob :-) )
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Creep speed/scouting is really strong! yes! Its very strong I agree. Now lets flip the coin, zerg off creep is really weak right? No matter how biased you are you should agree with me so far.
So we say Zerg is no longer "zerg'able" unless we have a creep path to our opponents base. Which will theoretically never happen (no matter how much APM you have) assuming, one scan> 2-3 creep tumors, 1 raven > all creep, 1 observer> all creep.
To everyone who says oh its easy, just spread creep more actively, heres a challenge for you, when playing against zerg how about you try sending 1 OBSERVER and 1 of ANY unit and go kill ALL the creep tumors? That's effectively the same amount of APM it takes to spread the creep, maybe easier because you can shift-que.
And if you say "oh duh its easy for that unit to be swarmed by zerglings", well its even easier for a creep tumor to be killed, especially before its fully created. For example,imagine a drop ship carrying a stalker in a group with a observer, now if you can match the zergs APM you can FULLY deny his ability to creep the map. (this method would actualy require 1 more action since you need to pink up the stalker)
The people that argue creep is good are also the same people that do nothing to defend against it. Thats all there is to it. Its not a one way advantage, it can be just as much as a disadvantage if you play against it properly. Stop being so ignorant because people complain about zerg
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Creep slowing down enemy units instead of granting bonus to friendly units. I wonder how that would work :s
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Zerg has changed. With the overmind in charge, the zerg were about amassing a swarm and conquering everything. Kerrigan on the other hand seems to prefer isolation and defensiveness.
I think the gameplay fits the lore quite well.
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On September 30 2010 05:00 TedJustice wrote: Zerg has changed. With the overmind in charge, the zerg were about amassing a swarm and conquering everything. Kerrigan on the other hand seems to prefer isolation and defensiveness.
I think the gameplay fits the lore quite well.
Zerg are only defensive because the other 2 races are extremely offensive early game..
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the mechanic imo is good. it forces attention on an issue that is fittingly race specific. the concept of infestation to your advantage would not work for any other race.
that being said, hydras are imho too slow. especially if you compare it to the way hydras move in some of the cutscenes, they look at least 10-15% faster than the slow slither you see in multiplayer
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On September 30 2010 05:02 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 05:00 TedJustice wrote: Zerg has changed. With the overmind in charge, the zerg were about amassing a swarm and conquering everything. Kerrigan on the other hand seems to prefer isolation and defensiveness.
I think the gameplay fits the lore quite well. Zerg are only defensive because the other 2 races are extremely offensive early game.. Yeah, but I was also referring to how they were defensive in the campaign story, in that they sat back for all those years between BW and SC2.
Not that the story is relevant to competitive play, but I believe it shows that design-wise, the new defensive zerg was an intended change.
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These balance discussions have me really frustrated as a zerg player. On one hand, I want some changes to make it easier to play zerg. But on the other, I watch Cool gigglestomp top players to the point where zerg looks absurdly OP.
Granted, he's the only one doing that right now, but it makes me think that as other zerg's get to his level then we will be seeing it more often.
Just my 2 cents, but I feel like since zerg is so reactionary, they will get more powerful as standard play develops for the other races. I believe zerg can definitely counter anything as long as they know its coming. So as certain plays become more standard and predictable, zerg will actually be much more powerful.
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i think creep should spread much faster, it should be equally easy to replace as it is to destroy, right now, destroying creep is so easy and maintaining it feels like a terrible chore you have to perform the whole game (taking it off takes a few seconds or micro on your units with observer or scan)
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I would love to see a rising hp level on the tumors so that it becomes an investment for my opponent to kill them.
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I like the idea of either buffing the speed creep spreads from tumors and/or letting overlords spread creep while moving. This way the APM requirements needed for the mechanic are lightened up a little bit and creep spreading is made more accessible. This way you could also tell groups of overlords to follow your hydralisks so they have the creep following them wherever they go. You could actually retreat your hydras from battle if needed.
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I wanted to note that most Protoss and Terran forget they are seen on creep. They suddenly got flanked and thats way they are not enough cautious once they are on creep. Gosu scouting creep is :D
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It feels like the creep makes zerg way toooo dependant on it, non speed roaches and hydras, and all Z units really benefit alot from creep, but are so much worse without it, doesn't seem to fair IMO
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Imagine if Protoss units only had shields while in a Pylon field.
Then Blizzard came out and callied it a unique racial advantage.
Taking away a key feature of the race, only to give it back in a gimped form.
Welcome to Zerg.
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I agree spreading creep early game can be a hassle, especially if you're working with one queen and you need all the larvae injects you can get... so i have some ideas on improving the creep mechanic...
1. What if making a creep tumor required no energy from the queen, but instead was on a cooldown... so for example, the queen could make one creep tumor every 30 sec or so. I think this wouldn't force you to have to sacrifice extra larvae early game just to make creep, and you wouldn't have to spend another 150 min making a second queen...
2. Every creep tumor could spawn an additional tumor... so you make one tumor from the queen, and that tumor can make two more... and those two could make two each.. and so on and so forth...
I'm pretty sure that if those two mechanics were introduced, creep spreading wouldn't be half as frustrating or time consuming for zerg players like myself.
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On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
You couldn't be more wrong.
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On September 30 2010 16:32 Uranium wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
You couldn't be more wrong. Haha, "Stalkers are terrible" he says. You realize they are the only unit that can teleport together in mass every 10 seconds and use that to run away if they need...? I agree, he couldn't be more wrong.
I agree spreading creep early game can be a hassle, especially if you're working with one queen and you need all the larvae injects you can get... so i have some ideas on improving the creep mechanic...
1. What if making a creep tumor required no energy from the queen, but instead was on a cooldown... so for example, the queen could make one creep tumor every 30 sec or so. I think this wouldn't force you to have to sacrifice extra larvae early game just to make creep, and you wouldn't have to spend another 150 min making a second queen...
2. Every creep tumor could spawn an additional tumor... so you make one tumor from the queen, and that tumor can make two more... and those two could make two each.. and so on and so forth...
I'm pretty sure that if those two mechanics were introduced, creep spreading wouldn't be half as frustrating or time consuming for zerg players like myself.
From your input, I came up with a viable idea:
This idea would add a lot of awesome strategy to Zerg. It would also require the enemy to focus in certain times in the game that they normally do not and finally give Zerg a much needed advantage in the game.
The idea is that Teir 2 Zerg can make a building that would make creep tumors indestructible until that building is destroyed (in which case all creep tumors would revert back to 15 hp if that building is destroyed). The rule is that only 1 of that building, which I recommend calling a "Cerebrate," can be built at a time. The gameplay involved is very interesting. Zerg players could get very sneaky about where they hide this building, because of the overlord creep spread. Also, this would cause a lot of other cool things in gameplay towards the zerg player's advantage.
For example, this would give Zerg the needed "opportunity" to cause the other races to bend to a Zerg player's will, rather than the other way around (as it always seems). It would finally open options to a zerg player to try and instigate the Terran or Protoss player to counter his creep tumors with a timed attack (instead of teching to colossi for example). This is the main reason I like the seperate building idea, rather than just a teir 2 upgrade. The building itself must be destroyed in order for the effect to go away.
Just an idea I think could work.
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Ideas are dime a dozen, it's sufficient to say 'balance the difficulty of spreading creep vs the ease of killing it' and then let Blizzard sort out the details. They're not going to pick your idea anyway.
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if zerg have to balance injections and creep spread, protoss and terran should bother have more than just chronoboost and mule to think about
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On September 30 2010 17:59 Cyber_Cheese wrote: if zerg have to balance injections and creep spread, protoss and terran should bother have more than just chronoboost and mule to think about
well with terran you also have the option of supply drops or scans. maybe if they increased the energy it takes for a scan or something, but i think first 100 going to mules and the next going to a scan is pretty necessary in most cases (at least for me, low level diamond terran but switched back to zerg for a few weeks already)
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On September 30 2010 16:57 chimthegrim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 16:32 Uranium wrote:On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote: Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
You couldn't be more wrong. Haha, "Stalkers are terrible" he says. You realize they are the only unit that can teleport together in mass every 10 seconds and use that to run away if they need...? I agree, he couldn't be more wrong. Show nested quote + I agree spreading creep early game can be a hassle, especially if you're working with one queen and you need all the larvae injects you can get... so i have some ideas on improving the creep mechanic...
1. What if making a creep tumor required no energy from the queen, but instead was on a cooldown... so for example, the queen could make one creep tumor every 30 sec or so. I think this wouldn't force you to have to sacrifice extra larvae early game just to make creep, and you wouldn't have to spend another 150 min making a second queen...
2. Every creep tumor could spawn an additional tumor... so you make one tumor from the queen, and that tumor can make two more... and those two could make two each.. and so on and so forth...
I'm pretty sure that if those two mechanics were introduced, creep spreading wouldn't be half as frustrating or time consuming for zerg players like myself.
From your input, I came up with a viable idea: This idea would add a lot of awesome strategy to Zerg. It would also require the enemy to focus in certain times in the game that they normally do not and finally give Zerg a much needed advantage in the game. The idea is that Teir 2 Zerg can make a building that would make creep tumors indestructible until that building is destroyed (in which case all creep tumors would revert back to 15 hp if that building is destroyed). The rule is that only 1 of that building, which I recommend calling a "Cerebrate," can be built at a time. The gameplay involved is very interesting. Zerg players could get very sneaky about where they hide this building, because of the overlord creep spread. Also, this would cause a lot of other cool things in gameplay towards the zerg player's advantage. For example, this would give Zerg the needed "opportunity" to cause the other races to bend to a Zerg player's will, rather than the other way around (as it always seems). It would finally open options to a zerg player to try and instigate the Terran or Protoss player to counter his creep tumors with a timed attack (instead of teching to colossi for example). This is the main reason I like the seperate building idea, rather than just a teir 2 upgrade. The building itself must be destroyed in order for the effect to go away. Just an idea I think could work.
No the actual effect would be terrible as Zerg would just keep "starving" their enemys. After they drop Queens at every Expo they´d just spam crawlers around the cerebrate.
I´d say Creep is a case of the promotion paradoxon. If you keep promoting employees that do their job well you will eventually have everyone stuck in a position that they don´t do well in.
Creep is a free combat power upgrade - as if Zerg had +1/+1 on Creep. Thus Zerg Players will perform better against any given force on creep than they would off it. They thus hit a wall once opponents show up that force them to fight important battles off creep.
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Above is an important point.
Creep cannot give too large of a bonus or it becomes a necessity.
It should remain a bonus that has an important effect on the game or nobody will use it.
It cannot be too hard to get rid of or your opponent cannot expand.
It cannot be too hard to spread or nobody will use it.
I personally think anything that is movement speed related is going to be too powerful or unimportant. And it is on the "hard to spread" side of the spectrum.
HP regen would make it useful without punishing people when it's not there.
SOMETHING needs to be done about it though.
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Faster energy recharge for casters?
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What about making creep tumor a skill of overlords (not overseers) which doesn't require energy but maybe add a higher cooldown?
This would allow Zerg to spread creep faster since they don't need a queen for it and at tier 2 they can spread creep everywhere since the overlord can create creep and then place a creep tumor to spread it further. If that would be too OP maybe remove the creep spread from overlords after they place the tumor (they "creeped out")
Another idea would be to allow overlord transport from the beginning but keep them this slow until T2 tech. This means that Zerg can bypass walls in the early game if the enemy doesn't have vision of his whole base (which is rare in the early game), allowing zerg to be more aggressive as long as the enemy only has too few units to stop the slooooooooow overlord. Additionally add creep spread as T1 skill (maybe at 50/50 costs) so you can get a queen, transport it somewhere, spread creep and place tumors.
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