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On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote:
You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
Hell yeah. Great replay. I wish every imbalanced thread would be closed by a post like this one.
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On September 30 2010 03:25 kmkkmk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:05 zomgtossrush wrote:
You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
Hell yeah. Great replay. I wish every imbalanced thread would be closed by a post like this one.
An ignorant one that basically was a wall of "l2p"?
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imo the creep mechanic makes sc2 zerg feel like the sc:bw Terran
zergs have to stay at home and are limited to where ever the creep network is limited to
what made zergs so unique in sc:bw was their mobility. easy to maintain map control
zergs in sc2 however, need to establish that creep network before anything can get done
not unlike terrans and their critical mass of 3/3 units or spider mine fields.
(note: im not saying that it is a bad thing, im just noting on the differences between sc2 and sc:bw zerg styles)
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On September 30 2010 03:29 deepstyle wrote:
imo the creep mechanic makes sc2 zerg feel like the sc:bw Terran
zergs have to stay at home and are limited to where ever the creep network is limited to
what made zergs so unique in sc:bw was their mobility. easy to maintain map control
zergs in sc2 however, need to establish that creep network before anything can get done
not unlike terrans and their critical mass of 3/3 units or spider mine fields.
(note: im not saying that it is a bad thing, im just noting on the differences between sc2 and sc:bw zerg styles)
Agree, played terran in BW and switched to Z to have a more dynamic and agressive race .. but now Z feels a bitg like BW metal terran .. There is still the possibility to play dynamic with muta / ling however i got more successful when slowly extending and macroing .. maybe this is the reason why there are so many "imba" threads, Z is not that zergish anymore, but people try to play it zergish. It is just a completely different race with a different playstyle.
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The main problem is quite simple. Creep isn't a bonus, it's a prerequisite. That's the #1 problem.
The other of course being how stupidly easy it is to completely shut down creep tumors.
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I like the creep mechanic the way it is, because it means i have more visibility of the map.
the only unit that i think is too slow right now is the hydra. In BW, a zerg player with out hydra's was a losing player. In SC2, hydras are sometimes more of a liability than an asset.
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On September 30 2010 03:42 JTWStephens wrote:
The main problem is quite simple. Creep isn't a bonus, it's a prerequisite. That's the #1 problem.
The other of course being how stupidly easy it is to completely shut down creep tumors.
To be honest, i think it is not worth the effort, hydra/roach/infrstor are kind of slowpush units even with creep ;-). I put some tumors in the beginning to connect main and nat and cover some dark edges of the main (proxies!), that's it. Sling/Bling/muta to harrass while macroing up and build some roach and/or hydra army to do the final push ..
When i need a highway, i prefer ovies spawning creep .. that's easier.
Anybody verified in the unittester that creep is such an advantage ?
(ok ok, i am a gold noob :-) )
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Creep speed/scouting is really strong! yes! Its very strong I agree. Now lets flip the coin, zerg off creep is really weak right? No matter how biased you are you should agree with me so far.
So we say Zerg is no longer "zerg'able" unless we have a creep path to our opponents base. Which will theoretically never happen (no matter how much APM you have) assuming, one scan> 2-3 creep tumors, 1 raven > all creep, 1 observer> all creep.
To everyone who says oh its easy, just spread creep more actively, heres a challenge for you, when playing against zerg how about you try sending 1 OBSERVER and 1 of ANY unit and go kill ALL the creep tumors? That's effectively the same amount of APM it takes to spread the creep, maybe easier because you can shift-que.
And if you say "oh duh its easy for that unit to be swarmed by zerglings", well its even easier for a creep tumor to be killed, especially before its fully created. For example,imagine a drop ship carrying a stalker in a group with a observer, now if you can match the zergs APM you can FULLY deny his ability to creep the map. (this method would actualy require 1 more action since you need to pink up the stalker)
The people that argue creep is good are also the same people that do nothing to defend against it. Thats all there is to it. Its not a one way advantage, it can be just as much as a disadvantage if you play against it properly. Stop being so ignorant because people complain about zerg
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Creep slowing down enemy units instead of granting bonus to friendly units. I wonder how that would work :s
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Zerg has changed. With the overmind in charge, the zerg were about amassing a swarm and conquering everything. Kerrigan on the other hand seems to prefer isolation and defensiveness.
I think the gameplay fits the lore quite well.
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On September 30 2010 05:00 TedJustice wrote:
Zerg has changed. With the overmind in charge, the zerg were about amassing a swarm and conquering everything. Kerrigan on the other hand seems to prefer isolation and defensiveness.
I think the gameplay fits the lore quite well.
Zerg are only defensive because the other 2 races are extremely offensive early game..
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the mechanic imo is good. it forces attention on an issue that is fittingly race specific. the concept of infestation to your advantage would not work for any other race.
that being said, hydras are imho too slow. especially if you compare it to the way hydras move in some of the cutscenes, they look at least 10-15% faster than the slow slither you see in multiplayer
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On September 30 2010 05:02 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 05:00 TedJustice wrote:
Zerg has changed. With the overmind in charge, the zerg were about amassing a swarm and conquering everything. Kerrigan on the other hand seems to prefer isolation and defensiveness.
I think the gameplay fits the lore quite well. Zerg are only defensive because the other 2 races are extremely offensive early game..
Yeah, but I was also referring to how they were defensive in the campaign story, in that they sat back for all those years between BW and SC2.
Not that the story is relevant to competitive play, but I believe it shows that design-wise, the new defensive zerg was an intended change.
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These balance discussions have me really frustrated as a zerg player. On one hand, I want some changes to make it easier to play zerg. But on the other, I watch Cool gigglestomp top players to the point where zerg looks absurdly OP.
Granted, he's the only one doing that right now, but it makes me think that as other zerg's get to his level then we will be seeing it more often.
Just my 2 cents, but I feel like since zerg is so reactionary, they will get more powerful as standard play develops for the other races. I believe zerg can definitely counter anything as long as they know its coming. So as certain plays become more standard and predictable, zerg will actually be much more powerful.
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i think creep should spread much faster, it should be equally easy to replace as it is to destroy, right now, destroying creep is so easy and maintaining it feels like a terrible chore you have to perform the whole game (taking it off takes a few seconds or micro on your units with observer or scan)
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I would love to see a rising hp level on the tumors so that it becomes an investment for my opponent to kill them.
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I like the idea of either buffing the speed creep spreads from tumors and/or letting overlords spread creep while moving. This way the APM requirements needed for the mechanic are lightened up a little bit and creep spreading is made more accessible. This way you could also tell groups of overlords to follow your hydralisks so they have the creep following them wherever they go. You could actually retreat your hydras from battle if needed.
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I wanted to note that most Protoss and Terran forget they are seen on creep. They suddenly got flanked and thats way they are not enough cautious once they are on creep. Gosu scouting creep is :D
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It feels like the creep makes zerg way toooo dependant on it, non speed roaches and hydras, and all Z units really benefit alot from creep, but are so much worse without it, doesn't seem to fair IMO
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Imagine if Protoss units only had shields while in a Pylon field.
Then Blizzard came out and callied it a unique racial advantage.
Taking away a key feature of the race, only to give it back in a gimped form.
Welcome to Zerg.
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EPT
