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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
"even inject larvae is easy enough, adding the spread creep mechanic too is what i think made zerg UP first: it allowed blizz to design units weaker off creep, second: it requires much more effort since its a second necessary mechanic, and third: its so easy to destroy compared to put down" | ||
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chimthegrim
United States31 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. I agree with this. It makes more sense, because then certain Zerg units wouldn't have to move so slow off of the creep--like hydras and teir 1 roaches. | ||
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Snippa-
United States98 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:13 SpiciestZerg wrote: Hydras' speed is really sad, but other than that I really like the new creep mechanic. It feels very Zerg; you're infesting the map itself. We had that in Broodwar... hatcheries & colonies were used to spread creep. I KINDA miss that... crawlers don't spread creep at all... but then they can be mobilized a bit... | ||
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TymerA
Netherlands759 Posts
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blk.man.smart
United States20 Posts
On September 29 2010 02:08 chimthegrim wrote: I agree with this. It makes more sense, because then certain Zerg units wouldn't have to move so slow off of the creep--like hydras and teir 1 roaches. I actually think reversing the creep affect would just make things worst if zerg units have the same speed off creep. Creep will only affect the enemies ground units, air will be unaffected. This will just make air harass and drop play stronger against zerg now because zergs ground units no longer have the speed bonus on creep. This means they are slower relative to the speed of air units. So all those annoying MMM drops will be even stronger because medivacs will be able to move units even faster than zerg can position units. | ||
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Takun
United States4 Posts
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darkwing.Huzow
United States35 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:46 Osmoses wrote: I think creep spreading actually enchances the zerg feel, they infest the landscape, but the way it works now is a bit meh, because as the OP says, without creep you're useless. I think it should take a lot more effort to stop creep spreading than just killing a few tumors. Fights against zerg I feel should have a large emphasis on preventing creep spread, but at the moment all I gotta do is get a raven or scan once or twice and the creep takes several huge steps back. I agree with this. Seems like the mechanic is great but there are two problems: 1) Zerg are too slow off creep. 2) Creep is too easy to remove. Both appear to have simple, non-game-breaking solutions. #1) Raise roach and hydra speed off creep while keeping it the same on creep (lessening the incremental benefit of roach speed on creep). #2) Give creep tumors A TON more hp - like, nexus level HP. We can justify this by saying that the tumor is buried so far under ground you have to basically throw down bunker bombs worth of firepower to totally kill the things. My qualification: I like games and I don't play Zerg, so I'm unbiased. I'm a thoroughly mediocre Protoss player. But it's pretty obvious to everyone (who isn't just playing politics/bias) that Zerg needs <3 and these two changes seem pretty solid to me. | ||
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Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. why only HotS? There will still have LotV way later but still this isnt the last hope | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
It's a bit of a paradox in the Zerg design. It might be a different story if the Zerg had the tools to turtle and defend in a cost-efficient manner, but so far that really doesn't seem to be the case. It also seems to take an inordinate amount of time for Zerg to actually climb the tech tree compared to the other two races, which really does seem to make it a lot more difficult for Zerg players to bring a match into the late-game where they have some better tools to work with. | ||
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Buhlbaid
Spain32 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. Sigh..... I get it. Hydras are slow off creep. There damn fast on creep. Keep your hydras on creep then. spread your creep with an overlord/1 queen right outside his base if you want. Also, speedlings are redonkulously fast on creep, not really that slow off creep. Banelings are game enders on creep against a bio ball and still pretty damn effective off creep (especially with upgrade). So, I think your point is that, you think that if all zerg units got the speed bonus everywhere that you would lean more towards thinkin its balanced.. w/e do it. I'm down for blizzard to try just about anything cause im so sick of this dogma. Also, fun fact that zergs dont want you to know: Creep gives them sight!!!!! | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:31 triumph wrote: creep spreading is one of the coolest parts of SC2. Don't blame the mechanic, blame the early game unit design. Why the hell not blame a stupid mechanic? A mechanic that seems awesome at first but is in fact a huge constraint to everything that is zerg. Every unit but the zergling is so slow off of creep they can be kited by so many things. Yes it's cool IN THEORY but blizzard honestly balances the speed of zerg units around their creep speed and that turns creep into a necessity instead of the bonus I thought it was supposed to be initially. Getting another queen out is not exactly viable as it FURTHER slows down the zerg's already slow as hell lair tech. A single observer or a few scans completely annihilates a creep highway that took the previous 15 minutes to build up. It's a big fat "HERE IS MY ARMY" red flag that people won't cross because they don't have to. Zerg units are so laughable ineffective without the creep prior to a few t3 units. I'd be fine with the creep mechanic if the zerg didn't have to base their entire existence on it. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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Takun
United States4 Posts
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darkwing.Huzow
United States35 Posts
On August 17 2010 17:49 Swede wrote: An idea that I've been thinking over is actually to combine that ridiculously silly "nest" ability in the recent troll patch with creep spread. Instead of having a queen moving round the map spreading creep, the queen can use "nest" which basically attaches it to a hatchery. The queen can then use "creep spread" for the same amount of energy, but rather than placing a creep tumour, it increases the radius that creep spreads from the hatchery. That way, to remove the creep you must actually destroy the hatchery producing it, rather than just cruising across the map with a raven/observer killing all the tumours. Perhaps when hatcheries are connected by creep (which would take longer this way), the creep could begin spawning in a radius around the center between those two hatcheries, at an increased rate. Another way to do it would be that each "creep spread" increases the rate at which creep spreads each time, so the longer you have a queen "nesting" and using this spell the faster the creep will spread. It would also make turtling something to be thought about because you won't just be able to remove all the creep when you leave your base. Anyway, I'm not expecting this to be implemented at all, but I think it's worth thinking outside the box with the creep issues. I love this idea. Could work it a couple ways. An alternative to your idea would be that no nesting is needed, but to get rid of creep tumors you have to kill the queen. I like this less because it could be a bit OP, essentially you have to win the game to get rid of creep tumors. | ||
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DarkspearTribe
568 Posts
On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. Look at your creep spread now back at TLOs, now back at your creep now back at TLO. Sadly your creep spread isn't like his, but if you stopped blaming balance and start actually working on it, you could be good like him. What's in your GSL? Back at me. It's Fruitdealer the zerg player you love. LOOK again. The zergs are now diamonds. Anything is possible when your creep spread is good. I'm on an infestor. Disclaimer: + Show Spoiler + This post was made for the luls | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
When Blizzard made the Zerg race, they gave each unit quite a unique role rather than a versatile role. What do I mean by that? When you look at the big picture, hydras are the damage dealer. They are by no means a meatshield. A tier 2 unit that has 80hp is just flat out laughable in SC2. Marauders, a tier 1.5 unit, have 125hp AND 1 armor? A hydralisk army without roaches to soak up the damage is just asking to get steamrolled. I don't care how much DPS a hydralisk can output, it doesn't mean crap when they melt in seconds. Wait, marauders can't hit air? Oh, it doesn't matter, our mineral sink is great anti-air by itself. Terran have tanks that completely obliterate hydras, and Protoss have templars and colossus. And when you combine the fact that it's impossible micro hydralisks off-creep against gateway units or even stimmed units. You have a powerful unit that just can't deal powerful damage before it dies. That's the problem here, if you go hydras, you're fairly committed to hydra/roach since the combination is fairly gas and money heavy. You barely even have enough minerals to dump into a mineral sink that becomes fairly worthless in midgame especially with no upgrades (lings). We all know that Zerg works great in numbers, but if you go roach/hydra, you will most likely not have anything else in significant numbers except going for some infestors in small numbers. But all in all, 80hp? really? There needs to be some sort of health buff/speed buff/damage nerf to make the hydralisk a more versatile unit. Because right now they can only deal damage, but their counters will deal even more damage to them. SC1 hydralisks were perfect. You can mass them in compensation to mediocre health, they had great versatility, good against several units, but also not overpowering by the fact that they only dealt half damage to light units. A great balance. | ||
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Pbartender
Netherlands55 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:02 LegendaryZ wrote: The problem with the Zerg for me largely revolves around the creep mechanic. The Zerg is supposed to be a mobile, offensively focused race, but the fact that its ability to be offensive and mobile revolves around staying on creep takes that design and forces it into a defensive, reactionary style for which it is ill equipped. This is less of an issue in the late game with a good Zerg player that's able to expand the creep regularly, but it really limits the Zerg's options to take any sort of initiative in the early and mid-game. An offensively geared race shouldn't be forced to consistently engage the enemy on its own home turf or else suffer from a major disadvantage. That's the exact opposite of offensive. It's a bit of a paradox in the Zerg design. It might be a different story if the Zerg had the tools to turtle and defend in a cost-efficient manner, but so far that really doesn't seem to be the case. I think this is pretty spot on; designing part of the race for a certain style, and then making a very important mechanic run counter to that style. Maybe if you had drones being able to turn into creep tumors or something, i.e. Zerg being able to generate some creep without creeping there. Sort of like Terran building a bunker, Zerg building a creep geyser. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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