EPTIt relegates hydras to almost a purely defensive unit that isn't used to attack until the very late game.
[D] Zerg creep: Killing the Zerg spirit? - Page 6
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
It relegates hydras to almost a purely defensive unit that isn't used to attack until the very late game. | ||
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iNty.sCream
Germany195 Posts
get your facts straight | ||
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Kronologic
Great Britain45 Posts
That way Zerg has a reward for creating tumors, The other races have a punisment for letting it happen, and the other races receive a reward for investing in using workers to clean up the mess (i.e. they reclaim their speed advantage in that area of the map) | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
As soon as lair hits, I already have my overlords in the spots where they need to be to get creep everywhere, and 1 creep tumour is enough to get your ramp choke creeped up. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 18 2010 00:46 Kronologic wrote: Yes but your missing the point. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race. That should be on and off creep. The speed advantage gained by spreading creep should be a Reward for investing the APM. Not a punishment for not doing it. I guess there is no analogies that I can make for the other races that really compares tbh. Options? Rewards? Luxury? Punishment? This is Starcraft, the game where people have to use every little thing at their disposal to maximize their chance to win. The game where building a spawning pool at 215 minerals instead of exactly at 200 is horrendously bad. The game where people will invest dozens and dozens of clicks just to have a marginally better chance at sniping an overlord with a marine. There is no luxury or optional things. You're either doing something that increases your chances of winning, or your doing something that's decreasing it. If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim. | ||
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iNty.sCream
Germany195 Posts
because this is the same to pull off. go back to disneyland | ||
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Kronologic
Great Britain45 Posts
On August 18 2010 01:00 Logo wrote: Options? Rewards? Luxury? Punishment? This is Starcraft, the game where people have to use every little thing at their disposal to maximize their chance to win. The game where building a spawning pool at 215 minerals instead of exactly at 200 is horrendously bad. The game where people will invest dozens and dozens of clicks just to have a marginally better chance at sniping an overlord with a marine. There is no luxury or optional things. You're either doing something that increases your chances of winning, or your doing something that's decreasing it. If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim. So your 2 keyboard clicks early game + 1 extra click in battle is equal to the 4 clicks every 30 seconds Zerg have to make just to keep pace? Your right, everything you can do to get an advantage should be done. But Thats exactly the point Spreading creep should give an advantage... Not just allow you to stay on a even keel. The majority (if not all) of Zerg units should be faster off creep than their terran and Toss counterparts. Thats the supposed strength of the Zerg Army its mobility. Without creep there is no mobility. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
For protoss, a similar complaint might be something like the general weakness of gateway units compared to their BW counterparts (probably at least partially) due to the new mobility afforded by the warpgates. However this isnt nearly as big an issue as creep since it seems to be working. Anyways, Im a protoss player, so i dont have any experience with actually spreading creep or anything, but from a design perspective, something clearly needs to change. What they should have done is make the creep speed less dramatic of an increase. Currently its like 30%. That really seems like a significant boost right? Not if the off-creep speed has to be nerfed to make that much of a bonus actually viable. If the boost were like 5-10%, it would be a much better situation as zerg could still have the same max speed (on creep), but with more speed off creep which would make it so much less of a disadvantage when leaving zerg territory. Its not even so much of a disadvantage as an advantage so advantageous that youd be crazy to not want to fight with it. Tone it down a bit, and it would probably improve the racial attributes while keeping the same overall effect. Other ideas that i will include just for fun: 1) Creep does nothing. But with a spell on the queen, you can convert patches of creep that boost speed significantly. This might be an alternate solution since the entire creep is not a bonus and youd have to devote energy and time to getting this creep speed bonus. It would be great around each hatch, or between expos for fast defense. They could rework drones to get a mining boost from it but this is not necessary. It might also improve ZvZ since they dont benefit from each others creep, only "theirs" creating a defenders advantage. 2) Units with more active creep spreading Right now youve got creep tumors (Slow) and overlords (slow vulnerable and temporary). But imagine if a unit (say, roach) could spread creep as it attacks. This would be a very interesting mechanic that would gel well with zerglings/banelings as well as other roaches. It would provide great flanking opportunities and kiting would be minimized by the effects of the speed boost. Also, it would make it so you could bring up a queen right after a battle and instantly convert an entire area (that you just won) to creep. Also, if banelings left creep on the ground after they died, how awesome would that be? Even in death they would have a purpose. 3) Alternate bonuses One of the coolest ideas they had was to give the overseer the ability to create a spell that would block line of sight, just like those gas vents on Scrap station, or the brush on LT. If they found a way to add this, it would be really cool: you could place it in your creep and suddenly, they need an air unit to make an effective assault of your base. You can use it to hide tech from opponents, or just catch them off guard with a flank. Makes anti air units more useful as they now have a clear new role (if you maintain air superiority, you have a distinct advantage on home turf). Also makes burrow traps more easy. Another idea is to give certain spells different effects on creep: ex, fungal growth does 20% more damage on creep. This idea is not very good tho since its not that intuitive and could be imbalanced. 4) The "Sprint" (lulz): throw down this bad boy creep tumor and fill a large-ish area with creep nearly instantly. Great for spawning in front of your army during an assault to give your units an edge quickly. Drawback? It also recedes quickly so take advantage of it while it lasts. Why is this could work? It makes creep more aggressive to fit the zerg style Oh well. | ||
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays) Do you know how strong a good roach rush can be if for some reason you don't scout it? Even if you do, it requires that you immediately commit all of your resources to defense, and against an unprepared player will win fairly often. If roaches moved faster off of creep, that rush would become nearly unstoppable. They would hit before your third gateway unit finishes, as normally this rush hits right after, and long before an immortal or void ray could finish. Ling obviously have a speed upgrade, and there's no reason to argue about that because everyone can agree speed is almost a necessary upgrade for them. If we made hydras faster off of creep, they would easily be able to kite a toss army or even a terran one before introduction of siege tanks into the mix (Seriously, have you ever tried to fight micro'd hydras on the creep in a midgame PvZ push? it's crazy! They can easily kite all your zealots and only lose 1 or 2 hydras unless you've pushed them right into the nat, and can also easily sniper stalkers and immortals.) Basically i could go on and on through a list of why this would damage the MU's much more than it would help, but i think this should be example enough. With lings and fast unit production Zerg already can gain map control very easily. Regardless of what is said about Terran imbalance a Zerg can still maintain map control in that matchup too with intelligent infestor use, and I think infestors are extremely important to that MU and that when zergs start to use them more there will be much fewer shoulder-crying fests of "Terran imba!" | ||
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iNty.sCream
Germany195 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
It is well-known how vulnerable zerg is earlyon, and this is contributed to by the inability to wall. This will also help that, as you will be able to have creep up to the choke from that early tumour | ||
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-vVvTitan-
United States473 Posts
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Nearsite00
United States31 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. I don't play zerg, but I agree with this guy. Creep always gives away the zerg position. Creep shouldn't be implented the way it currently is, becuase it actually penalizes zerg for not having creep, when in actuality, creep should be penalizing the other races for being on creep. Haven't you guys seen the videos? All the swarm attacking on ground and they moved super fast and they weren't on creep. As a matter of fact, I've never actually seen creep on any of the videos. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
Zerg just can't retreat as well anymore because you won't have creep at their front door 6 minutes into the game. That partially has to do with the mechanics of the game though. Not just the creep. Both Terran and Toss have something that prevents you from retreating the already slow zerg army early on in the game with marauders and sentries, and Zerg just can't break down walls well either (except for banelings). But in the end, you couldn't chase lings, you can't chase lurkers, you can't chase speed hydras as either T or P, but now you can chase everything but lings. In the end, off creep zerg is part of the problem why the early aggressor roles have switched in SC2, but it's not the only problem. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On August 18 2010 01:17 ghermination wrote: "Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right? The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays) Are you serious? 1 armor is ridiculous? You should compare roach speed(tier 1 without creep)/range and stalker speed/range and you should be able to do something before immortals or void rays (void ray seriously?  ).Anyway, if marauders are T1.5, roaches are 1.5 too -_- | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:43 Alpina wrote: Yeah creep mechanic is very cool but it should be a bonus, not a necessity. Looks like they just lowered speed of all zerg units and then added creep speed bonus so they can move normal. I think the best solution to all of this is to make the creep bonus exactly that, a bonus. As it stands it's an an absolute necessity. The base movespeeds of zerg units (excluding zerglings) are too slow. I think if the base movespeeds were increased and the creep bonus was lowered it would work out perfectly. For example the roach moves at 2.25 base and with the speed upgrade it becomes 3.00. On creep the roach moves at 3.95. That's almost a whole 1.0 bonus movespeed on creep!! I feel that the roach's movespeed with upgrade should be 3.4 or 3.5 with creep bonus being only 0.5 or 0.4. That way a roach can still move fast off creep but won't be ridiculously fast on creep because the total speed value would still be 3.95. This desperately needs to apply to the hydralisk especially. Base speed is 2.25 with creep bonus being a gigantic 1.17!! This forces the hydralisk into an on-creep only role, ie. defensive unit and is limited in it's offensive/map control role and almost impossible to use for any sort of harassment as it's too slow to retreat once it's done it's damage. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
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realiz3
9 Posts
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iewgnem
Canada4 Posts
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