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silencesc
United States464 Posts
On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote: Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2. This isn't constructive, please think about your posts before you have a knee-jerk "Zerg is UP" reaction. | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
Anyway, if marauders are T1.5, roaches are 1.5 too -_- Without a doubt. To get roaches you need Spawning Pool --> Roach Warren, which costs more and takes longer than Barracks --> Tech Lab. So If anything, Marauders are T1.25 while roaches are T1.5. Yes, I understand thats not a perfect picture, but you get the idea. | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote: I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. Wow that sounds really awesome. Not sure how it would actually work out but it sounds like a good solution. It would have to be a very slight slow though because otherwise no one would ever cross the creep and just mass air or something like that. | ||
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Azile
United States339 Posts
If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim. Brb sniping off your stim with a scan forcing you to re-research it. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 18 2010 01:09 Kronologic wrote: So your 2 keyboard clicks early game + 1 extra click in battle is equal to the 4 clicks every 30 seconds Zerg have to make just to keep pace? Your right, everything you can do to get an advantage should be done. But Thats exactly the point Spreading creep should give an advantage... Not just allow you to stay on a even keel. The majority (if not all) of Zerg units should be faster off creep than their terran and Toss counterparts. Thats the supposed strength of the Zerg Army its mobility. Without creep there is no mobility. That's just so ridiculous. If Zerg on creep = massive advantage auto-win then the game would be so insanely favored to zerg with their ability to play a defensive reactionary style. Look at the current situation. It's entirely possible to have the majority of fights occur on creep if you're willing to move out to defend the edges of your creep. If the current mechanic of spreading creep is too APM intensive, then fine, but that's not what's being argued. There are much easier ways to attend to that issue. For example tumors could have 30s cooldown but a larger and faster rate of spreading creep. Still it's really not that intensive to get the creep to spread at a reasonable rate and if you want to make the argument that zerg is overloaded with APM requirements you'll need a more comprehensive analysis. It's true that there's a problem with say spawn larva needing attention IMMEDIATELY, but that doesn't apply to the tumors. You don't need to spread the tumors immediately every cooldown unless you're using a leading overlord to reach max range every 15s as the trade-off of putting a tumor immediately at 15s and waiting until the creep spreads more then placing it is relatively even. I've never once found it difficult to get my creep spreading except possibly connecting the main - natural as early as I want it to be connected. The only time the creep spreading doesn't work out is when I can't defend the edge of my creep. I find it really funny that it seems like everyone assumes I'm a Terran player lol. | ||
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ocius
United States3 Posts
Other than that, I don't mind it so much. Roach speed early can be a bit irritating, but if you're going heavy roaches the speed upgrade is pretty much the first thing you'll pick up at Lair. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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Blobert
2 Posts
That's just so ridiculous. If Zerg on creep = massive advantage auto-win then the game would be so insanely favored to zerg with their ability to play a defensive reactionary style. Look at the current situation. It's entirely possible to have the majority of fights occur on creep if you're willing to move out to defend the edges of your creep. Well the problem with that is maybe the opponent's force is too powerful for the zerg player's to handle at that point, so the only thing the zerg can do is allow it to happen and just continue building up forces at his own base to counter the other player when the other player reaches his base. And then by the time the zerg player has enough forces to face his opponent the opponent will have already cleared the place of creep. Personally, I dont think that the speed boost is the best thing the creep should do. The zerg's advantage is having the speed to outmaneuver his opponents. But the problem is this outmaneuvering is now dictated by where creep is and the speed at which creep expands. Therefore, at the end there isnt much outmaneuvering at all because, as previous posters mentioned, it is quite easy for the opponent to destroy creep tumors and by extension creep. As for the idea that creep could punish the opponent by decreasing their speed. The problem with that is most protoss and terran units already have a longer range than zerg units and dont necessarily need to hurry into position to attack, whereas zerg having less range is more important for them to have the speed to get within range. Also, the fact that a smart player would simply have a detector with his force to destroy any creep tumors when he moves into a creep-ed area would negate this. Instead, creep should probably just increase the health regen of zerg units. That way, zerg units wont be restricted by the creep as to where they should engage because of decreased speed. Creep spreading would still occur because the zerg would want to have more areas of the map that would 'heal' his units. And then the problem of the opponent whittling away the edges of the creep wont be so detrimental to the zerg because the areas closer to the bases will still have creep to allow for faster regen and they retain their speed to engage the enemy even when they're not on creep. If creep changed from speed to regen though, the speed upgrades for zerg should give them more or less the current on creep speed to compensate for their current slowness off creep since this change would mean they wont be moving any faster on creep. | ||
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Siffer
United States467 Posts
The problem I have with creep spread, is that it is too easy to get rid of for the other races. First off, in early-mid game, you don't have a creep spread. Reapers/Hellions/2gates completely restrict your ability to spread creep until you stabilize. At most, you get to connect your two bases with tumors. This in itself is a defensive act. You gain absolutely no advantage, connecting the two bases is only to put yourself even and have a chance vs relentless early game pressure. Once you get to tier 2, spreading creep becomes a bit easier. You can get an extra queen and use overlords to leap frog your creep tumors. However, at this point, I find myself committing more towards defending my creep tumors more than anything else. By the time you get to the middle of the map, protoss will have an obs and terran will have the ability to scan since they will most likely have two orbitals. Now that late game arrives, it is damn near impossible to spread creep via tumors anywhere near your opponent. Most of the time, I find myself creating an abundance of overlords to counteract this. I typically will send in 4-5 overlords with every attack with creep-poop turned on so that it is more difficult to kite units like hydras and ultralisks. Basically every attack, I am committing 500 extra minerals just to utilize the supposed "zerg mobility" without running into supply issues. The other issue is that zerg has two separate macro mechanics(larva and creep spread) they must use while protoss(chrono) and terran(Mule/Scan counts as one imo) have one. When you combine the two, you literally have very little time to actually maneuver your army around the map. You spend more time clicking around the mini-map than selecting actual units. I am a 150-200apm player. I can not tell you how many games I have lost because a protoss just balls their army of stalker, collosus, and zealot with a obs leading so that the collosus can safely snipe tumors. While ultraling is good vs this unit comp, once creep is gone, it is extremely easy for a protoss to kite the ultras, which are the main damage dealers. The more aggressive your enemy is, the harder it is to spread creep. Sometimes it leads to a slow death contain because you literally can't out maneuver your opponent, which is supposed to be zergs strength. How do you fix it? Some ideas: -Give creep tumors HP buff and maybe a huge armor buff? Maybe make it comparable to an egg/larva? -Make the spread of a tumor larger so that units like the collosus can't attack tumors from a safe range -Make creep speed less of a bonus. Up base speed of all zerg units to give them a bit more mobility off creep. It is literally impossible to retreat hydras off creep. -Make tumors invulnerable to range/splash dmg. For what its worth. I am a 600 diamond zerg player. I find that I lose the majority of my games because I feel I have no mobility advantage against terran/protoss. I almost always out macro my opponents, but this means nothing if I can be easily kited in/near their base where creep doesn't exist. There have been several instances where I have thought "If I had creep, I would have won this battle." Creep shouldn't have that large of an impact on fights. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
Not only that, it more or less forces passive play. When most of my units are slow as hell off creep of course im not going to take them off just to poke around. Sure creep is mainly defensive, which i can accept, but when my units are handicapped off creep its not very enjoyable. I like the suggestions of lowering creep bonus speed and increasing base speed to a more reasonable level. Creep should also offer passive regen bonuses. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 18 2010 03:04 Siffer wrote: How do you fix it? Some ideas: -Give creep tumors HP buff and maybe a huge armor buff? Maybe make it comparable to an egg/larva? -Make the spread of a tumor larger so that units like the collosus can't attack tumors from a safe range -Make creep speed less of a bonus. Up base speed of all zerg units to give them a bit more mobility off creep. It is literally impossible to retreat hydras off creep. -Make tumors invulnerable to range/splash dmg. For what its worth. I am a 600 diamond zerg player. I find that I lose the majority of my games because I feel I have no mobility advantage against terran/protoss. I almost always out macro my opponents, but this means nothing if I can be easily kited in/near their base where creep doesn't exist. There have been several instances where I have thought "If I had creep, I would have won this battle." Creep shouldn't have that large of an impact on fights. See I think #1, #2, and #4 are much better solutions than #3 if there is a problem. The problem, if there is one, isn't with needing creep, it's with your ability to spread it around and defend it. Another type of solution would be say if spawn larva was only 20 energy. Then every 3.33 minutes a properly controlled queen would have enough spare energy to spawn a tumor. It doesn't sound like much, but it would help to reduce the investment needed in getting creep spread about (it'd also open up a little room to use transfusion). One of the problems with the queen is that unlike protoss/terran you can't save the energy for an emergency, then if that situation doesn't occur use it for the economic/production boost. | ||
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JHancho
United States166 Posts
On August 18 2010 01:17 ghermination wrote: "Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right? The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays) Do you know how strong a good roach rush can be if for some reason you don't scout it? Even if you do, it requires that you immediately commit all of your resources to defense, and against an unprepared player will win fairly often. If roaches moved faster off of creep, that rush would become nearly unstoppable. They would hit before your third gateway unit finishes, as normally this rush hits right after, and long before an immortal or void ray could finish. Ling obviously have a speed upgrade, and there's no reason to argue about that because everyone can agree speed is almost a necessary upgrade for them. If we made hydras faster off of creep, they would easily be able to kite a toss army or even a terran one before introduction of siege tanks into the mix (Seriously, have you ever tried to fight micro'd hydras on the creep in a midgame PvZ push? it's crazy! They can easily kite all your zealots and only lose 1 or 2 hydras unless you've pushed them right into the nat, and can also easily sniper stalkers and immortals.) Basically i could go on and on through a list of why this would damage the MU's much more than it would help, but i think this should be example enough. With lings and fast unit production Zerg already can gain map control very easily. Regardless of what is said about Terran imbalance a Zerg can still maintain map control in that matchup too with intelligent infestor use, and I think infestors are extremely important to that MU and that when zergs start to use them more there will be much fewer shoulder-crying fests of "Terran imba!" Please go on. First off, Roaches are Tier 1.5. They have their own building that costs 150 minerals. Heard of it? It's called the Roach Warren. It takes about 55 seconds to morph in, which is 30 less seconds than it takes to get a Tech Lab on your 'rax, leaving you ample time to get out a Marauder, and start one of the best and most powerful upgrades in the game, the Concussive Shell. By the time the first wave hits (6-7 Roaches, depending on inject and warren timing), you should have at the very least 3 Marauders (more if you have additional raxes, or a factory on the way), at least one marine, and many SCVs to repair the wall that Zerg can't get through anyway. As far as Protoss goes, they better be getting Stalkers at some point in their game, and most assuredly should have it before a one base roach build hits (unless they are doing a forge FE, which they should be punished for). They have many options when it comes to denying roaches. They have Stalkers that deal 14 damage a shot and can kite the Roaches, they have a Sentry that can Force Field the ramp, allowing both the Stalkers and Sentries behind the Force Field free reign to dismember Roaches risk free for 15 seconds. In the time that the Roaches come across the map (except steppes), you have at least 1 production cycle of additional units to deal with it. Fun fact: If you don't scout your opponent, anything can be hard to stop. Commit to defense, huh? Reactored Hellions need a lot of attention, otherwise your mineral line gets decimated. Even if you scout them, you're SOL because your Spine Crawlers won't finish in time. If you don't have lots of Speedlings or a fair amount of Roaches out, you might be in serious trouble. What if a Toss player 2gates you? GL stopping 5 Zealots without Roaches or Spines). How many Zerg players you know tech up to tier 2.5 (remember, pool, lair, hydra den, combines for a whopping 185 seconds straight (plus gas and all that jazz) before Terrans get out a factory? With continuous production it'll take 150 seconds (if you build the tech lab on the rax and swap, then it'll be 125) Spawning a wave of hydras (assume, laughably, that you can afford 6 after den) takes 33 seconds. A tank takes 50. Siege mode, which again, will allow you to sit behind your wall, takes 80 seconds. Hydras won't make it over there in the 30 second window that you have before siege tech comes. Even if they do, just repair the wall and wait it out. Hydras are prohibitively expensive, and if the Zerg player is on 2 bases, the push may be stronger, but it will be delayed significantly, allowing multiple tanks to pulverize the Zerg offensive. Ever heard of Charge or Force Field for those 'mid-game' pushes? I'd love to hear the rest of your dissertation, and agree that Infestor usage can help a Zerg player, but I'm not certain that it's as dramatic as you seem to think. What can the Infestor do? NP for 2 seconds before getting shelled by a Tank? Force the Zerg player to have 10 of them to get all of the high ticket mech units at once? Fungal? (how many Fungals will it take to kill a Thor?) Infested Terrans? Only if you have, and can get away with, using the burrow-cast to break siege lines with the spawning ITs, which is a waste of gas once the inevitable scan hits. And do you truly believe that a Terran cares about Infestors when going mech? Sensor Towers, Missile Turrets, and blanket coverage with Tanks allow the terran to sit worry free in his base until he hits 125+ food and is ready to annihilate your 200 food Zerg army. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 18 2010 03:33 JHancho wrote: Please go on. First off, Roaches are Tier 1.5. They have their own building that costs 150 minerals. Heard of it? It's called the Roach Warren. It takes about 55 seconds to morph in, which is 30 less seconds than it takes to get a Tech Lab on your 'rax, leaving you ample time to get out a Marauder, and start one of the best and most powerful upgrades in the game, the Concussive Shell. By the time the first wave hits (6-7 Roaches, depending on inject and warren timing), you should have at the very least 3 Marauders (more if you have additional raxes, or a factory on the way), at least one marine, and many SCVs to repair the wall that Zerg can't get through anyway. As far as Protoss goes, they better be getting Stalkers at some point in their game, and most assuredly should have it before a one base roach build hits (unless they are doing a forge FE, which they should be punished for). They have many options when it comes to denying roaches. They have Stalkers that deal 14 damage a shot and can kite the Roaches, they have a Sentry that can Force Field the ramp, allowing both the Stalkers and Sentries behind the Force Field free reign to dismember Roaches risk free for 15 seconds. In the time that the Roaches come across the map (except steppes), you have at least 1 production cycle of additional units to deal with it. Fun fact: If you don't scout your opponent, anything can be hard to stop. Commit to defense, huh? Reactored Hellions need a lot of attention, otherwise your mineral line gets decimated. Even if you scout them, you're SOL because your Spine Crawlers won't finish in time. If you don't have lots of Speedlings or a fair amount of Roaches out, you might be in serious trouble. What if a Toss player 2gates you? GL stopping 5 Zealots without Roaches or Spines). How many Zerg players you know tech up to tier 2.5 (remember, pool, lair, hydra den, combines for a whopping 185 seconds straight (plus gas and all that jazz) before Terrans get out a factory? With continuous production it'll take 150 seconds (if you build the tech lab on the rax and swap, then it'll be 125) Spawning a wave of hydras (assume, laughably, that you can afford 6 after den) takes 33 seconds. A tank takes 50. Siege mode, which again, will allow you to sit behind your wall, takes 80 seconds. Hydras won't make it over there in the 30 second window that you have before siege tech comes. Even if they do, just repair the wall and wait it out. Hydras are prohibitively expensive, and if the Zerg player is on 2 bases, the push may be stronger, but it will be delayed significantly, allowing multiple tanks to pulverize the Zerg offensive. Ever heard of Charge or Force Field for those 'mid-game' pushes? I'd love to hear the rest of your dissertation, and agree that Infestor usage can help a Zerg player, but I'm not certain that it's as dramatic as you seem to think. What can the Infestor do? NP for 2 seconds before getting shelled by a Tank? Force the Zerg player to have 10 of them to get all of the high ticket mech units at once? Fungal? (how many Fungals will it take to kill a Thor?) Infested Terrans? Only if you have, and can get away with, using the burrow-cast to break siege lines with the spawning ITs, which is a waste of gas once the inevitable scan hits. And do you truly believe that a Terran cares about Infestors when going mech? Sensor Towers, Missile Turrets, and blanket coverage with Tanks allow the terran to sit worry free in his base until he hits 125+ food and is ready to annihilate your 200 food Zerg army. Nice post. Agreed. | ||
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GreatFall
United States1061 Posts
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Tickmint
United States12 Posts
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Melancholia
United States717 Posts
On August 18 2010 01:13 Knee_of_Justice wrote: Also, if banelings left creep on the ground after they died, how awesome would that be? Even in death they would have a purpose. First, awesome name. Second, even more awesome idea, that would be such a cool change. | ||
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
What they did though, accidentally, was give Zerg a huge disadvantage off the creep. And Terran and Protoss players, saying "spread creep, then", have no idea how difficult and frustrating it can be. And in the end, it's useless anyway since any protoss/terran ball will be carrying an observers or raven. Also, it's not easy to spread creep into where the opponent is already waiting and when you go on the offensive it's just not possible to always have creep down. | ||
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blacktoss
United States121 Posts
So while Terran and Protoss have so many ways to create threats, Zerg is preoccupied with a mechanic that they must constantly manage to create a passive equalizer. It's not even an advantage on defense! And it creates virtually no threat offensively. | ||
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socjones
3 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 18 2010 09:44 socjones wrote: This is a totally soft comment and not meant to be taken seriously but I feel like on the race design and macros, it's like, the Zerg need their macros to just be up to par. If you're not spreading creep or hitting spawn larvae on the dime you have a negative handicap. Where, the Terran and Protoss macros actually make them over par-- do this faster-- free money. Regardless of actual balance I think Zerg is probably the least forgiving of players making mistakes. I think thats the most frustrating part of it. Even if everything is perfectly balanced playing Zerg is a high-wire act. Even ZvZ where a single baneling can determine the game. | ||
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