[D] Zerg creep: Killing the Zerg spirit? - Page 7

On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote:
Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.

Anyway, if marauders are T1.5, roaches are 1.5 too -_-

On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote:
I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.

If you're going a ground force you need to spread creep; just like if you're going with bio you need to invest in stim.

On August 18 2010 01:09 Kronologic wrote:

So your 2 keyboard clicks early game + 1 extra click in battle is equal to the 4 clicks every 30 seconds Zerg have to make just to keep pace?

Your right, everything you can do to get an advantage should be done. But Thats exactly the point Spreading creep should give an advantage... Not just allow you to stay on a even keel. The majority (if not all) of Zerg units should be faster off creep than their terran and Toss counterparts.
Thats the supposed strength of the Zerg Army its mobility. Without creep there is no mobility.

That's just so ridiculous. If Zerg on creep = massive advantage auto-win then the game would be so insanely favored to zerg with their ability to play a defensive reactionary style. Look at the current situation. It's entirely possible to have the majority of fights occur on creep if you're willing to move out to defend the edges of your creep.

On August 18 2010 03:04 Siffer wrote:
How do you fix it? Some ideas:

-Give creep tumors HP buff and maybe a huge armor buff? Maybe make it comparable to an egg/larva?

-Make the spread of a tumor larger so that units like the collosus can't attack tumors from a safe range

-Make creep speed less of a bonus. Up base speed of all zerg units to give them a bit more mobility off creep. It is literally impossible to retreat hydras off creep.

-Make tumors invulnerable to range/splash dmg.

For what its worth. I am a 600 diamond zerg player. I find that I lose the majority of my games because I feel I have no mobility advantage against terran/protoss. I almost always out macro my opponents, but this means nothing if I can be easily kited in/near their base where creep doesn't exist. There have been several instances where I have thought "If I had creep, I would have won this battle." Creep shouldn't have that large of an impact on fights.

On August 18 2010 01:17 ghermination wrote:
"Until" lair tech? You realize that that's about 5 minutes into the game against a competent zerg right?

The only two t1 units that you ever have to worry about when playing against a zerg are Lings and Roaches. Roaches have a ridiculous amount of HP and armor and there are no t1 units that can be made by the other races to destroy them (terran has to go to t1.5 to get marauders, toss has to go to t2 to get immortals or void rays)

Do you know how strong a good roach rush can be if for some reason you don't scout it? Even if you do, it requires that you immediately commit all of your resources to defense, and against an unprepared player will win fairly often.

If roaches moved faster off of creep, that rush would become nearly unstoppable. They would hit before your third gateway unit finishes, as normally this rush hits right after, and long before an immortal or void ray could finish.

Ling obviously have a speed upgrade, and there's no reason to argue about that because everyone can agree speed is almost a necessary upgrade for them.

If we made hydras faster off of creep, they would easily be able to kite a toss army or even a terran one before introduction of siege tanks into the mix (Seriously, have you ever tried to fight micro'd hydras on the creep in a midgame PvZ push? it's crazy! They can easily kite all your zealots and only lose 1 or 2 hydras unless you've pushed them right into the nat, and can also easily sniper stalkers and immortals.)

Basically i could go on and on through a list of why this would damage the MU's much more than it would help, but i think this should be example enough. With lings and fast unit production Zerg already can gain map control very easily. Regardless of what is said about Terran imbalance a Zerg can still maintain map control in that matchup too with intelligent infestor use, and I think infestors are extremely important to that MU and that when zergs start to use them more there will be much fewer shoulder-crying fests of "Terran imba!"

On August 18 2010 03:33 JHancho wrote:


Please go on.

First off, Roaches are Tier 1.5. They have their own building that costs 150 minerals. Heard of it? It's called the Roach Warren. It takes about 55 seconds to morph in, which is 30 less seconds than it takes to get a Tech Lab on your 'rax, leaving you ample time to get out a Marauder, and start one of the best and most powerful upgrades in the game, the Concussive Shell. By the time the first wave hits (6-7 Roaches, depending on inject and warren timing), you should have at the very least 3 Marauders (more if you have additional raxes, or a factory on the way), at least one marine, and many SCVs to repair the wall that Zerg can't get through anyway.

As far as Protoss goes, they better be getting Stalkers at some point in their game, and most assuredly should have it before a one base roach build hits (unless they are doing a forge FE, which they should be punished for). They have many options when it comes to denying roaches. They have Stalkers that deal 14 damage a shot and can kite the Roaches, they have a Sentry that can Force Field the ramp, allowing both the Stalkers and Sentries behind the Force Field free reign to dismember Roaches risk free for 15 seconds. In the time that the Roaches come across the map (except steppes), you have at least 1 production cycle of additional units to deal with it.

Fun fact: If you don't scout your opponent, anything can be hard to stop.
Commit to defense, huh? Reactored Hellions need a lot of attention, otherwise your mineral line gets decimated. Even if you scout them, you're SOL because your Spine Crawlers won't finish in time. If you don't have lots of Speedlings or a fair amount of Roaches out, you might be in serious trouble.

What if a Toss player 2gates you? GL stopping 5 Zealots without Roaches or Spines).

How many Zerg players you know tech up to tier 2.5 (remember, pool, lair, hydra den, combines for a whopping 185 seconds straight (plus gas and all that jazz) before Terrans get out a factory? With continuous production it'll take 150 seconds (if you build the tech lab on the rax and swap, then it'll be 125)

Spawning a wave of hydras (assume, laughably, that you can afford 6 after den) takes 33 seconds. A tank takes 50. Siege mode, which again, will allow you to sit behind your wall, takes 80 seconds. Hydras won't make it over there in the 30 second window that you have before siege tech comes. Even if they do, just repair the wall and wait it out. Hydras are prohibitively expensive, and if the Zerg player is on 2 bases, the push may be stronger, but it will be delayed significantly, allowing multiple tanks to pulverize the Zerg offensive.

Ever heard of Charge or Force Field for those 'mid-game' pushes?

I'd love to hear the rest of your dissertation, and agree that Infestor usage can help a Zerg player, but I'm not certain that it's as dramatic as you seem to think. What can the Infestor do? NP for 2 seconds before getting shelled by a Tank? Force the Zerg player to have 10 of them to get all of the high ticket mech units at once? Fungal? (how many Fungals will it take to kill a Thor?) Infested Terrans? Only if you have, and can get away with, using the burrow-cast to break siege lines with the spawning ITs, which is a waste of gas once the inevitable scan hits.

And do you truly believe that a Terran cares about Infestors when going mech? Sensor Towers, Missile Turrets, and blanket coverage with Tanks allow the terran to sit worry free in his base until he hits 125+ food and is ready to annihilate your 200 food Zerg army.

On August 18 2010 01:13 Knee_of_Justice wrote:

Also, if banelings left creep on the ground after they died, how awesome would that be? Even in death they would have a purpose.

On August 18 2010 09:44 socjones wrote:
This is a totally soft comment and not meant to be taken seriously but I feel like on the race design and macros, it's like, the Zerg need their macros to just be up to par. If you're not spreading creep or hitting spawn larvae on the dime you have a negative handicap. Where, the Terran and Protoss macros actually make them over par-- do this faster-- free money.