EPTLol
[D] Zerg creep: Killing the Zerg spirit? - Page 9
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Arnu
Canada96 Posts
Lol | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
as for the 'line in the sand' issue, that's a good point, and might be a good argument for tier 3 hydra speed, but other than that it's a good mechanic and a strong motivation for terran to waste scans. also i seriously doubt they'll change the mechanic fundamentally. maybe some stats but nothing like exchanging the speed bonus entirely. might as well get used to it. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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Murkyith14
United States111 Posts
I agree; I personally think it would make more sense for enemy units to slow down in creep. Think about it. This shit nourishes the Zerg buildings, and takes forever to disappear (at least, the creep from the Hatchery takes forever). Creep has to be fucking thick. For Terrans and Protoss who aren't used to walking in it, it makes sense that they'd be slowed by it. Now, I like the fact that creep does something. It's great that you have a different reason to spread it than simply to be able to have room for new buildings. But I think that a speed boost for Zerg perhaps wasn't the best idea. Spreading the creep feels very Zerg. Feeling confined to it because of the lack of speed off creep doesn't. | ||
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rockon1215
United States612 Posts
On August 18 2010 11:39 Tazza wrote: I think this sums it up well, creep is not a bonus, it is needed.Yeah, Blizzard was supposed to make creep a bonus to help zerg, but now, its a must-need to attack and this is also why zerg is so bad at early game because of the lack of speed. This is like larvae injection, because if u don't do it, u will probably lose. The question is, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Is this balanced? Are warpgates a bonus to protoss, or are they needed? | ||
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Subztance
United States139 Posts
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Macavity
United States83 Posts
When someone plays Starcraft 2, the objective is to beat the opponent, and the race is like a toolbox full of different units (tools) to achieve this end. Terran appears overpowered because it is the race with the most options, it has the biggest toolbox. Terran has the widest range of units to use so, therefore, they have the greatest power to shape and form battles and the flow of the game. Additionally, the 'larger toolbox' multiplies synergy among the different units and various unit combinations. If a race has a 'smaller toolbox', there are much less multipliers of synergy as there are less unit combinations possible. The fix to the Zerg is as simple as increasing their toolbox, increasing the range of options the Zerg player has. This doesn't necessarily mean "add more units" but to allow existing units to have more dimensions of play. The reason why Zerg units are so... two-dimensional is because Zerg was designed to be 'swarmy' which means to mass a ton of units and attack move. Increasing the toolbox for Zerg won't change this part of the Zerg but allow Zerg to be able to respond and force other players to do different things. It will also make Z vs. Z match-ups far more interesting (whose current not-fun status is caused by two 'small toolbox' players going at each other). Here are some examples I was thinking of that would be simple 'tweaks' that would grow the Zerg option 'toolbox' considerably: -Remove lair requirement for Overlord creep. This would allow Zerg to be able to block their ramps and chokepoints with evolution dens placed under pooping Overlords at the start of the game. Zerg is the only race that cannot block off its choke. It is because of this that many maps are imbalanced against Zerg. This would also allow Zerg to place an overlord and spine crawler in an offensive way to non-Zerg races. If Protoss can offensive cannon and Terran can offensive bunker, why can't Zerg offensive spine crawler? It would take some micro because you would require the overlord (and be risky because you don't want to lose your first overlord). -Allow spine and spore crawlers to be transported by overlord. This change would increase the mobility of Zerg to allow them to place their crawlers on ledges. They could also place them on ledges near their enemy. Keep in mind there must be an overlord making creep for the crawlers to 'settle'. If the enemy used anti-air to destroy the pooping overlord, the offensive spine crawler will eventually whither and die. Protoss and Terran can easily plop down missile turrets, bunkers, and cannons on ledges, why can't Zerg? Fear not about Zerg plopping spine crawlers in an enemy's mineral line as it takes soooo long for the crawlers to 'settle' into the ground (more than enough time to blow them up). -Remove lair requirement for overlord upgrades. Zerg has the slowest dropship in the game. In order to get such a overlord ship, Zerg must do two upgrades (who is going to use an overlord shipping units without speed?). Removing the lair requirement would not make instant Zerg dropships because two upgrades still must be researched. This would allow Zerg to better control their ledges against Terrans and their dreaded medivacs. It would also allow Zerg not easily be contained (overlords are riskier than a warp prism or medivac since Zerg's supply is hit when an overlord dies especially in early game). -Add a new dimension to the corrupter. I hate the corrupter. The other races' anti-air flyers are very interesting and very fun to play with. The Terran Viking is fun to transform. The Protoss Phoenix is fun to weave around, shoot stuff, and use graviton beam to pick stuff up. The Zerg Corrupter is just boring, boring, boring. It's ability is 'corruption'. Ooohhh! How dull. It is nothing compared to the graviton beam or transforming. Can we give an additional dimension to corruption? How about make it slow units down (clearly wouldn't affect harvestors). This would allow Zerg to want to make corruptor, even if there is no air threat, just to use its slow ability every now and then to help out in battles or to slow retreating enemy forces. It could also make Terran mech even more immobile. I agree with the OP that creep is making Zerg immobile, but I don't think the fault is creep so much as the units themselves. And the fault of the units is that Zerg has very limited options, a very limited 'toolbox', especially in early-game. If Zerg are given more options, the race will be less 'samey' when played, and Zerg will have more tools to combat other races (and Z vs. Z will become more exciting). | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 11:42 rockon1215 wrote: I think this sums it up well, creep is not a bonus, it is needed. The question is, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Is this balanced? Are warpgates a bonus to protoss, or are they needed? I don't think you can really classify either as a "bonus". A bonus implies you have some baseline to compare them to, and the races are all different enough that you don't have such a baseline to work with. | ||
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Macavity
United States83 Posts
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Rybka
United States836 Posts
On August 18 2010 11:39 Tazza wrote: Yeah, Blizzard was supposed to make creep a bonus to help zerg, but now, its a must-need to attack and this is also why zerg is so bad at early game because of the lack of speed. This is like larvae injection, because if u don't do it, u will probably lose. The creep mechanic is not of benefit to zerg until late game, and even then it's not much of a benefit. At the beginning, when you don't have creep all over the map is when you need it most, but then when you finally have creep all over the map it doesn't matter. Battles are huge and the added mobility doesn't allow you to squeeze your ultras and lings through a chokepoint any easier. Frankly, most of the maps in play aren't even open enough to handle robust Zerg ground armies... | ||
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mutant
United States31 Posts
The suggestion that creep slows down the opposing units, in the end, makes the game work exactly the same. Personally, I would like off-cpeed creep to be increased to on-speed creep (or lower), and have creep provide increased HP regeneration, making creep spreading vital, but giving more tools ot the zerg early game. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
However, the problem is quite complex. You can't simply just buff Zerg unit speed because then on creep, they'll be too ridiculously fast, or the difference between on-creep and off-creep speed would be so small spreading creep is a pointless waste of APM in most cases. However, removal of the creep mechanic would be sacrificing what could potentially be a very interesting and positive mechanic for the game. The reason why I do not feel that slowing opposing units that are on creep is a good idea, and why it's not "exactly the same," is because slower moving units is BAD for micro. It's kinda like how marauder's concussive shells were so OP beginning of beta because there was literally no way to micro your way out of it. Once you're caught, you're dead. The nerf to conc. shells gave some wiggle room. Creep should, imo, do nothing to opposing units and only serve as a buff to Zerg. | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
On August 18 2010 13:32 Ryuu314 wrote: I think that the creep mechanic is too powerful to allow it to negatively affect your opponent. However, I do feel that the creep mechanic is harming the Zerg. Zerg units are just too darn slow (in general) off creep and that's really hurting Zerg play. You can no longer poke into your opponents bases or just simply retreat to fight another day. You will be chased down and you will be killed. This wouldn't really be an issue except that non-Zerg players are learning to creep clear and as the player base develops, creep clearing will be a very basic part of playing XvZ, the same way mine clearing was in BW. However, the problem is quite complex. You can't simply just buff Zerg unit speed because then on creep, they'll be too ridiculously fast, or the difference between on-creep and off-creep speed would be so small spreading creep is a pointless waste of APM in most cases. However, removal of the creep mechanic would be sacrificing what could potentially be a very interesting and positive mechanic for the game. The reason why I do not feel that slowing opposing units that are on creep is a good idea, and why it's not "exactly the same," is because slower moving units is BAD for micro. It's kinda like how marauder's concussive shells were so OP beginning of beta because there was literally no way to micro your way out of it. Once you're caught, you're dead. The nerf to conc. shells gave some wiggle room. Creep should, imo, do nothing to opposing units and only serve as a buff to Zerg. I don't think anyone wants zerg to get even faster on creep. Having the speed difference between off-creep and on-creep actually is the best solution. Just as chrono boosting requires extra apm to get your units out a little faster but not instantly, why not have creep require extra apm to get a small speed boost while not giving instant-teleportation like speed. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1438 Posts
The only thing I started doing that seems to sort of work is to engage with my main army, suicide speedlings at them to buy time for my army to pull back. Unfortunately, it doesn't work when I am attacking, because the map designs makes it hard to get lings behind them or around them anyways. On August 18 2010 02:23 silencesc wrote: This isn't constructive, please think about your posts before you have a knee-jerk "Zerg is UP" reaction. This isn't a constructive post either. Please think about your posts before you have a knee-jerk reaction to another. If it was really that bad, the mods here would have warned him about it. Atleast his post gives me another person's perspective on the game... | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
Tumors are going to need buffs in a few months. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On August 18 2010 16:35 Ghad wrote: The biggest problem with creep is that we are now seing that Terran and Protoss can wipe ut creep that you have spent 15 minutes on deploying in one minute. Tumors are going to need buffs in a few months. You aren´t supposed to use Tumors for offensive creeping. You get Overlords or Nyduses for that, Tumors are for securing Map control which you have to "earn". Tumors might need a buff but they don´t need to be able to creep the map. They need to be able to creep YOUR portion of the map, as indicated by the fact that you can defend them. It´s fine if Zerg "need" creep (I actually don´t think that they are absolutely crippled off it). If anything they may need better options to spread it TEMPORARILY. | ||
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Liquorshot_852
Korea (South)72 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:35 purerythem wrote: isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10? QFT | ||
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hetpotatis
Sweden24 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6030351 Creep mechanic changed. All Zerg units now gain half of the creep moving speed INNATELY. The other half still remains with an added effect of increased health regen while on creep and out of combat. This will make Z still want to spread their creep as far as possible and the other races want to remove it, but it won't punish Z so badly without it. Without the creep, they're as fast as anybody else, but with it, they become most mobile of all races, which is one of their strengths. Also, the health regen will be an added incentive to spread creep but won't balance fights during actual combat. | ||
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
They can't buff the base speed of various zerg units out of fear that they'll simply be too fast while on creep, but the problem can be easily sidestepped with upgrades. You can give hydras for example a speed upgrade just like in BW that does not stack with the creep bonus or if it does, it will to a lesser degree. Also to the earlier people in this thread who claim that creep is just for speed, that's hardly just the case. Creep also gives you map control and vision. Other races cannot expo there while there is creep and the vision creep provides is critical. | ||
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NeWnAr
Singapore231 Posts
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