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On August 18 2010 04:46 Tickmint wrote:
The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread.
lol, no offense but that is the worst suggestion I have heard regarding possible zerg changes to date.
Invincible tumors (i.e. no way to remove creep) would be auto-win for zerg.
1) Get 1 overlord + queen, lay a tumor at every expo on the map = Terrans/Protoss can no longer expo.
2) While the player is distracted elsewhere, lay a tumor in his base (or just advance tumors into his base) = Terrans/Protoss can no longer build anything in their main.
Yeah, that doesn't sound broken at all...
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On August 18 2010 09:55 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 09:44 socjones wrote:
This is a totally soft comment and not meant to be taken seriously but I feel like on the race design and macros, it's like, the Zerg need their macros to just be up to par. If you're not spreading creep or hitting spawn larvae on the dime you have a negative handicap. Where, the Terran and Protoss macros actually make them over par-- do this faster-- free money. Regardless of actual balance I think Zerg is probably the least forgiving of players making mistakes. I think thats the most frustrating part of it. Even if everything is perfectly balanced playing Zerg is a high-wire act. Even ZvZ where a single baneling can determine the game.
The other frustration part is that Zergs often have to make decisions before their opponent. You throw down an expansion, pool, or gas, before he has to throw down his 2nd gate for example. There are a lot of times where the opponent can confirm then build while Zerg often has to build then confirm.
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Creep is amazing. I dont want it changed.
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Regardless of actual balance I think Zerg is probably the least forgiving of players making mistakes. I think thats the most frustrating part of it. Even if everything is perfectly balanced playing Zerg is a high-wire act. Even ZvZ where a single baneling can determine the game.
I don't think we should be ok with this. It kills Zerg play at all levels if we just designate Z as the harder race and say oh that's ok. Why would anyone go into a tournament playing a race that's admittedly harder to play as?
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Make creep from tumours spread WAAAY faster and have no cooldown.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote:
I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
at first glance this sounds brilliant
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On August 18 2010 10:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 04:46 Tickmint wrote:
The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread. lol, no offense but that is the worst suggestion I have heard regarding possible zerg changes to date. Invincible tumors (i.e. no way to remove creep) would be auto-win for zerg. 1) Get 1 overlord + queen, lay a tumor at every expo on the map = Terrans/Protoss can no longer expo. 2) While the player is distracted elsewhere, lay a tumor in his base (or just advance tumors into his base) = Terrans/Protoss can no longer build anything in their main. Yeah, that doesn't sound broken at all...
no offense, but thats the worst suggestion i have heard regarding zerg ability to spread creep and other race ability to make it not happen..
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i wish you could spread creep offensively for mounting attacks. like, be able to "call down" creep tumors like zerg can do in the campaign. that way zerg doesn't have to be really defensive in the early game.
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IMO little changes could be just exactly what Z needs.
For example, make OL's creep poop hatchery level.
To me this is pretty uncontroversial and it does big things for Zerg. Z could take ramps at the early game. It puts broodlings a little more back in play. It gives Zerg macro a little breathing room by getting OL's situated during T1 when the pace is picking up, at T2 you're two basing most the time and dealing with harassment So spreading OLs kinda get lost in the mix especially at the lower levels.
In a big picture this just feels more zerg with a, perfect execution, design conception of OL's dropping creep at the fringes followed by creep tumors as the base actually grows.
And it's just a T1 buff so by the time T2 roles about you're at exactly the same point you would have been.
****
I also think something like lowering spawn larvae time would help. Assuming 1 queen per hatch 45 seconds corresponds almost perfectly to generating 25 energy.
If spawn larvae was, say, 40 or 35 seconds you could begin to compensate for a missed rotation since consequtive perfect spawns would eat that energy down--- conceptually like spamming mules or chrono boosts except still a little tighter.
And again something like this would give zerg a little more breathing room by:
1. one basing is a little more functional since a hatch can output larvae faster.
2. the balance between droning and units would be a little more navigable
3. I would still hazard the output of several hatches with a reduced spawn time would be nearly comparable to terrans producing from reactored production buildings and Toss running 4+ warpgates like they do mid to late game.
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On August 18 2010 10:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 04:46 Tickmint wrote:
The biggest change to creep, is I wish tumors were invincible once they are rooted. Creep is too easily killed off for the amount of effort it takes to spread. lol, no offense but that is the worst suggestion I have heard regarding possible zerg changes to date. Invincible tumors (i.e. no way to remove creep) would be auto-win for zerg. 1) Get 1 overlord + queen, lay a tumor at every expo on the map = Terrans/Protoss can no longer expo. 2) While the player is distracted elsewhere, lay a tumor in his base (or just advance tumors into his base) = Terrans/Protoss can no longer build anything in their main. Yeah, that doesn't sound broken at all...
lol that would be hilarious. That would actually make Zerg a bit more OP than terran.
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I personally think hydras could be faster off creep, or simply have an upgrade for speed like BW.
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Anyone else remember in Brood War how the lurker was pretty much faster than any ground unit other than vultures/lings? Lurker flanks ruled.
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You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
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On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote:
You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
oh wait i see what ur saying
well i assumed zerg would be given a speed boost off creep if they were to do that
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On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote:
You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
It's not the same because at the moment they are giving you an effect that has an emphasis on offensive positioning (attacking your opponent) on the side of the map where you already have control (defensive positioning). Don't get me wrong, having faster units while on the defensive is still an advantage but you receive a greater benefit from faster units while attacking your opponent on their side of the map. After all, you can't win the game by being on the defensive, eventually you are going to have to push to their side of the map.
Having slower enemy units on your side of the map would align the positioning of your troops with the mechanic to cause a better synergy. You receive the benefit from the mechanic on your side of the map (defensive positioning) and the mechanic (enemy being slow in your territory) strictly has a defensive emphasis (slowing down the enemy as they try to push into where you have map control).
The problem I see with the idea is, I think slowing down your enemy would cause a dumbing down of micro. Faster units encourage micro while slower units leave less chances to micro (in the vain of your units being kited by marauders making micro impossible). However I could see this encouraging different types of micro by placing more emphasis on people using things like stim, blink, and dropship play to overcome the disadvantage (possibly moving while burrowed could be unaffected to allow for more opportunities to utilize it in zvz).
I think, as always, a compromise would be the best solution so we don't take away from the player's micro by having their entire army slowed. We could find a middle ground where we lessen the effect of the current creep mechanic by 50% and then to compensate, we would add the slowing mechanic but match the percentage of effectiveness with the current mechanic, essentially meeting half way.
Any thoughts?
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On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote:
You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep.
I dont personally feel that would be the case on the assumption Zergs off creep speed is buffed to be the same as its current oncreep speed. I think it will become a case of You'd want to fight on the creep that's obvious. But you no longer Need to fight on the creep. And because your units would work better off creep you'd find Zerg were generally more aggressive.
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On August 18 2010 11:18 Kronologic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 10:57 Torture wrote:
You realize that making units slower on creep would have the exact same effect. It would be the opposite but you'd still feel like you need to fight on creep. I dont personally feel that would be the case on the assumption Zergs off creep speed is buffed to be the same as its current oncreep speed. I think it will become a case of You'd want to fight on the creep that's obvious. But you no longer Need to fight on the creep. And because your units would work better off creep you'd find Zerg were generally more aggressive.
this man speaketh the truth. though offcreep isnt that bad, roach and hydra could maybe use a speedbuff off creep regardless.
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Many people on this thread have missed the point. The point is NOT that creep is difficult to use and is under-compensated by its mere speed boosting effects. Nor is it saying that Zerg sucks because they are slow off creep.
On August 17 2010 16:03 justinsroy wrote:
Personally, its like saying "protoss dont have warpgates early on".
Solution produce an extra queen and spread creep earlier. 150 minerals and start spreading the tumors if the off creep speed is bugging you that much.
I see where you are coming from, the mobility of the units are quite slow off creep. But the fact of the matter is that most early units (Roach/zergling) have upgrades to increase their speed.
This is totally out of point.
The problem is not any of those, but the over-dependence of Zerg mobility on creep. You cannot solve the problem of over-dependence by things like speed upgrades and more queens to spread more creep. This is because those solutions don't solve the problem of over-dependence, they just fulfill the requirements for having more mobility. Over-dependence on creep for mobility cannot be solved by having more creep. Even if you have more creep, it doesn't make you immune to areas which have no creep. Therefore the over-dependence stays.
Creep is supposed to be a BOOST or an ADVANTAGE to Zerg but now it seems more like a REQUIREMENT for Zerg armies. Especially with Hydralisks, which in my opinion is one of the most commonly used units in Zerg matchups, they are severely underpowered when they are not on creep. I am not saying that creep does not help, but I am saying that this help is rather futile. They should be STRONGER on creep, not just strong. They should already be strong without creep. Creep should just makes them better than they already are.
Meaning, Zerg units should have higher movement speed inherently. Not by means of creep. Creep should give certain bonuses and advantages to the Zerg army while fighting on it, but it shouldn't become an absolute need.
The second point he made was that creep gave intelligence to the enemy unnecessarily. While I do believe this is true, I don't think of it as a really big problem. This is a little like the sensor tower. Blind intelligence such as these provides depth in psychological warfare. Similar to tricking your enemy using bogey units or fake expansions signs when they throw a sensor tower down, proxying creep can be a very powerful psychological tool to use against your opponent. For example, spreading creep using an overlord at the choke of an empty expansion to let him think you have taken it, then backdooring his base when he tries to push in the empty space. Or purposely spreading creep directly from your base to a possible expansion, then flanking him from another side.
On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote:
I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
This is a great idea. It remains to provide advantage for Zerg on creep while not totally destroying their mobility off creep.
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On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote:
I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
yeah there would be.. the game would be balanced around your enemies being slowed on creep lol.
by that same token, you can say that units move the right speed without creep, and move faster as an advantage on creep, so you don't have to spread it.
aka: don't be bad, spread it.
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On August 18 2010 11:28 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote:
I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. yeah there would be.. the game would be balanced around your enemies being slowed on creep lol. by that same token, you can say that units move the right speed without creep, and move faster as an advantage on creep, so you don't have to spread it. aka: don't be bad, spread it.
Right, what they are suggesting would be a double buff because you are increasing your units speed as well as creating a new mechanic to slow your opponents speed on creep. That's why I'm suggesting doing 50% percent of both mechanics so you get the best of both worlds, each being only half as effective as the current mechanic
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EPT
