|
On August 15 2010 02:58 EnderCN wrote:
If you are talking over the scope of an entire game then Zerg easily has the best scouting of anyone. Terran has a small window before the Zerg gets their creep up where they might come out ahead. Protoss plays in the dark during this entire window though. I guess my point is if any race needs help with scouting early it is Protoss not Zerg, I can't see how they would buff this for Zerg without doing something for Protoss first.
I believe it is because Zerg is a reactionary race while Protoss and Terran are not. I have not been playing very long, but it seems that Protoss and Terran can basically be the dark and build whatever they want without having to worry about what their opponent is doing, or at least against Zerg.
|
zerg NEEDS scouting because of all the things T/P can do to just end the game before it even hist 10 minutes.
|
|
|
On August 18 2010 02:08 raph wrote:
zerg NEEDS scouting because of all the things T/P can do to just end the game before it even hist 10 minutes.
Sacrifice an overlord. Not harder than that. It's 100 minerals but it can win you the game. And keep a zergling outside the ramp to see when he's moving out.
|
simple solution i think. make the changelings an untimed unit(and keep the ability to change forms) or a cloaked untimed unit(without keeping the ability to change forms). should solve it imo.
the latter half would make the changling into a ground based observer.
|
On August 18 2010 02:14 Ballistixz wrote:
simple solution i think. make the changelings an untimed unit(and keep the ability to change forms) or a cloaked untimed unit(without keeping the ability to change forms). should solve it imo.
the latter half would make the changling into a ground based observer.
An even better solution would be able to make them be able to wall climb. That way you can sneak one in and abuse cliffs like all the other races do.
|
On August 18 2010 02:11 ZergSecks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 02:08 raph wrote:
zerg NEEDS scouting because of all the things T/P can do to just end the game before it even hist 10 minutes. Sacrifice an overlord. Not harder than that. It's 100 minerals but it can win you the game. And keep a zergling outside the ramp to see when he's moving out.
why do all people assume that every zerg player that wants to talk about the difficulties off scouting are complete noobs?
i keep lings outside his base, i run them up, i keep lings at towers, i keep lings around my base to avoid sneaky probes putting proxy pylons, i keep pressure on his back rocks if he has any and i send overlords as often as i can, whenever i have a few minerals to blow, send overlord and make two new overlords at the base.
still oftenly i can't see what he's doing. if i tech to lair quickly and he goes for a early MM/T1 push i won't have much to defend with, i'll react with a few spines and having my queens and lings and the few hydras i can afford at the times but 60% of the times it's not enough.
i have to rely being able to get the lair later and for that whole time i can't get overlord speed to be able to scout correctly.
|
I don't think there is a problem. For early game scouting (after a Terran wall is done), Keep a few OLs on the perimeter of his base and run one of em in and out a bit to scout for early MM pushes. Lings at the front of his base to watch for when he starts pushing out.
For mid/late get OL speed, be willing to sac them to know what is going on. Or morph an Overseer, drop a changeling into their base, then get the Overseer out.
|
I feel like there should be windows where players can decide to go for quick timing pushes knowing they won't be scouted. I feel like there's no reason someone should be able to be scouted nearly 100% of the time, it takes out using surprise builds.
Just decrease time for spine crawler. Or bring back a creep colony that can transform either into a spine or spore... although I'm not sure how that overlaps with creep tumor.
|
I generally don't sac overlords, although once I start playing really good opponents I suspect I may have to. I mostly use lings and wait for an overseer to take a look in his base. Unless I get a really clear picture of what's going on (ie: fast expand, opponent reveals all his tech at the top of his ramp) I make a quick hydra and maybe a 3rd queen just to be safe. Worst case scenario I'm up against something like marine/tank and I have to transition into a roach/baneling heavy army, but at least it's never an instaloss if banshees or void rays come in.
|
On August 18 2010 02:25 zak1129 wrote:
I don't think there is a problem. For early game scouting (after a Terran wall is done), Keep a few OLs on the perimeter of his base and run one of em in and out a bit to scout for early MM pushes. Lings at the front of his base to watch for when he starts pushing out.
For mid/late get OL speed, be willing to sac them to know what is going on. Or morph an Overseer, drop a changeling into their base, then get the Overseer out.
The problem is in the early game, the first 5 minutes or so, I can't afford to lose an OL. Like others have said I keep lings outside of his base, I buy the OL speed upgrade when I can afford it and I keep OLs around his base but early on you can't afford to lose one... and it really takes two to ensure you get a good scout because of Turrets and the amount of anti air a Terran has. Toss and Zerg are much easier to scout because they don't seem to have as much anti air early on.
|
I noticed a lot of people are saying sac an overlord.My question is how will you even see anything?I play random and unless you place you buildings on the edge of your base there is NO way that an overlord will spot it....Not to mention it sets you VERY behind.
|
I still don't understand why they made overlord speed boost so damn expensive in the beta. Was overlord speed really that OP? We need to scout for crying out loud.
|
On August 18 2010 03:02 nafta wrote:
I noticed a lot of people are saying sac an overlord.My question is how will you even see anything?I play random and unless you place you buildings on the edge of your base there is NO way that an overlord will spot it....Not to mention it sets you VERY behind.
This was very much the standard way of doing things in BW. Why do people forget that?? It's so obvious that many of the people who bitch about Z never played them in BW. It's very much a necessary thing.
Also, sure seems a lot of people have trouble identifying what is coming based on the unit count at the front door. If a T is rallying his units there, you should always have a good idea of what is coming without seeing anything else. 1-1-1 is going to result in a different number of units/diff composition than a three rax all-in. If it's a rine heavy army instead of mauraders, the gas is being used elsewhere.
The T is dictating the game at that early time. Being able to identify when the opponent is massing and when he is teching early based on the unit count was a very important skill in BW and is here too. In BW, it became easier over time as people got used to builds.
|
On August 18 2010 03:57 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:02 nafta wrote:
I noticed a lot of people are saying sac an overlord.My question is how will you even see anything?I play random and unless you place you buildings on the edge of your base there is NO way that an overlord will spot it....Not to mention it sets you VERY behind. This was very much the standard way of doing things in BW. Why do people forget that?? It's so obvious that many of the people who bitch about Z never played them in BW. It's very much a necessary thing. Also, sure seems a lot of people have trouble identifying what is coming based on the unit count at the front door. If a T is rallying his units there, you should always have a good idea of what is coming without seeing anything else. 1-1-1 is going to result in a different number of units/diff composition than a three rax all-in. If it's a rine heavy army instead of mauraders, the gas is being used elsewhere. The T is dictating the game at that early time. Being able to identify when the opponent is massing and when he is teching early based on the unit count was a very important skill in BW and is here too. In BW, it became easier over time as people got used to builds.
One of the toughest things for me is that sometimes Terrans put their main army back in their base, so you think they are going banshee or something.. you get an extra queen or tech up to hydra just to get steamrolled by a giant marine drop or marine push. I think the problem is that it almost seems like Zerg seem to be heavily reliant on anticipating what is incoming while at the same time being one of the toughest races to scout with!
|
United States47024 Posts
This is no different from Brood War.
What Zerg needs is early and midgame economic flexibility. Because if you can lay down expansion before pool, you have enough gas to play as flexibly as your protoss and terran counterparts.
|
On August 18 2010 04:06 TheYango wrote:
This is no different from Brood War.
What Zerg needs is early and midgame economic flexibility. Because if you can lay down expansion before pool, you have enough gas to play as flexibly as your protoss and terran counterparts.
Expansion before pool has very little effect on gas income. Usually you aren't even using both geysers before your natural finishes, and even if you were, there's no way you'd go for a third. Two geysers in full use = 8 drones wasted. 2 to make the extractors, 6 to mine. Very costly early game, especially if you lost another drone when drone scouting (and lose how many drones everytime you make a building!).
|
On August 18 2010 02:22 lindn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 02:11 ZergSecks wrote:On August 18 2010 02:08 raph wrote:
zerg NEEDS scouting because of all the things T/P can do to just end the game before it even hist 10 minutes. Sacrifice an overlord. Not harder than that. It's 100 minerals but it can win you the game. And keep a zergling outside the ramp to see when he's moving out. why do all people assume that every zerg player that wants to talk about the difficulties off scouting are complete noobs? i keep lings outside his base, i run them up, i keep lings at towers, i keep lings around my base to avoid sneaky probes putting proxy pylons, i keep pressure on his back rocks if he has any and i send overlords as often as i can, whenever i have a few minerals to blow, send overlord and make two new overlords at the base. still oftenly i can't see what he's doing. if i tech to lair quickly and he goes for a early MM/T1 push i won't have much to defend with, i'll react with a few spines and having my queens and lings and the few hydras i can afford at the times but 60% of the times it's not enough. i have to rely being able to get the lair later and for that whole time i can't get overlord speed to be able to scout correctly.
And when you sac an overlord and you see three barracks, reactor, techlab lots of rines and marauders you STILL don't know what he's doing?
|
On August 18 2010 04:04 GreatFall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:57 Hawk wrote:On August 18 2010 03:02 nafta wrote:
I noticed a lot of people are saying sac an overlord.My question is how will you even see anything?I play random and unless you place you buildings on the edge of your base there is NO way that an overlord will spot it....Not to mention it sets you VERY behind. This was very much the standard way of doing things in BW. Why do people forget that?? It's so obvious that many of the people who bitch about Z never played them in BW. It's very much a necessary thing. Also, sure seems a lot of people have trouble identifying what is coming based on the unit count at the front door. If a T is rallying his units there, you should always have a good idea of what is coming without seeing anything else. 1-1-1 is going to result in a different number of units/diff composition than a three rax all-in. If it's a rine heavy army instead of mauraders, the gas is being used elsewhere. The T is dictating the game at that early time. Being able to identify when the opponent is massing and when he is teching early based on the unit count was a very important skill in BW and is here too. In BW, it became easier over time as people got used to builds. One of the toughest things for me is that sometimes Terrans put their main army back in their base, so you think they are going banshee or something.. you get an extra queen or tech up to hydra just to get steamrolled by a giant marine drop or marine push. I think the problem is that it almost seems like Zerg seem to be heavily reliant on anticipating what is incoming while at the same time being one of the toughest races to scout with!
yeah it's something that good t's will do, but the only option is to sacrifice a lord and make sure you've got a front door scout to make sure that he doesn't take the opportunity to roll you while you're blind.
It's really not THAT hard to see what's going on initially. It's just a matter of being efficent with your one sacrifice lord. Assume it's LT for this example. Tech isn't gonna be by the front door because you can easily see that by throwing a ling or a quick sacrifice. Ditto by the money, it will be hard to wedge it in there. You don't want to just click that Lord into his base and go back to work. If the T is at 3base LT, you'd first go up or down that left most clif just out of range to get an idea of what is where and then go in. You should be able to see a few buildings and go in.
The T isn't going to shoot all his units there for fear of lings busting the door and being a nuisance. You should have enough range to see a fair amount of the base.
Has anyone done a time comparison with Z and P? Toss are in the same position. My probe is useless after the first rine and I have to go to robo to get an obs. We don't have lords to get in there. Toss is very much dependent on reading what's going on by the units at the front gate.
On August 18 2010 04:27 ZergSecks wrote:
And when you sac an overlord and you see three barracks, reactor, techlab lots of rines and marauders you STILL don't know what he's doing?
If seeing three gates and a lot of MM isn't a tipoff to his plans, the issue isn't balance. It's you.
|
Lol people are complaining that scans cost 270 minerals compared to an overlord to scout. Do people actually realize that if a zerg doesn't get a correct scout off he can just lose the game to banshees or a fast tank push. If you try to prepare for somthing and he was just going fast exspand all along you feel so far behind....
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
