EPTZerg scouting flaw - Page 6
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On August 15 2010 01:58 Neo.NEt wrote: Honestly I didn't read more than a line or two but I don't see a huge problem here. Lings can scout the entire map no problem, but as far as scouting their main, you pretty much have to get overlord speed and sacrifice an overlord. Not exactly a scan, but I wouldn't consider this broken. This is why I asked everyone to read everything, especially the situation. | ||
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On August 15 2010 02:58 EnderCN wrote: If you are talking over the scope of an entire game then Zerg easily has the best scouting of anyone. Terran has a small window before the Zerg gets their creep up where they might come out ahead. Protoss plays in the dark during this entire window though. I guess my point is if any race needs help with scouting early it is Protoss not Zerg, I can't see how they would buff this for Zerg without doing something for Protoss first. DIDN'T YOU READ MY POST???!!!! My entire post was explaining how Zerg has terrible scouting at the worst part of the game. NOT THE ENTIRE GAME!! The critical part, where the other person is either cheesing and establishing their tech. Not going to explain more just read the post. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
Edit: As opposed to posting on b.net forums, where a lot of new players and low level leagues post about issues that people who played the beta have already discussed. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
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andeh
United States904 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:38 fabiano wrote: How come no one ever complained about Z scouting in BW? Its just the same thing as in SC2. Because maps were bigger in bw, so if you saw units come across the double bridges with lings on desti you had enough time to react. Compare it to the time when you see units come down the ramp with lings on steppes of war. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:38 fabiano wrote: How come no one ever complained about Z scouting in BW? Its just the same thing as in SC2. Because there aren't 15 different 1 base rush builds you need to be aware of | ||
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Wayra
195 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:00 hadoken5 wrote: DIDN'T YOU READ MY POST???!!!! My entire post was explaining how Zerg has terrible scouting at the worst part of the game. NOT THE ENTIRE GAME!! The critical part, where the other person is either cheesing and establishing their tech. Not going to explain more just read the post. Chill out. The game is at its early stages, eventually, it will reach a point where small things like this will be figured out by players. Hadoken5 is just pointing out that protoss needs to get an observer before they can scout. Overwise, they have latest the lastest scouting of any races. But I understand that he was missing a point about zergs and that is cloaked units. Even though protoss have later scouts, they automatically counter cloaked units, however zergs needs an additional step for detection. I think you are pointing out that the detection mechanism for zerg needs a change, because the fact that the zerg scouting unit does not have detection, so when it sees cloaked units on the field, it is already too late. But for protoss, when the player finds out that the enemy units is using cloaked units, they already have an observer. There is also a factor of luck involved, now you probably agree that for the most part if you send in 2 overlords, you will probably be able to deduce 80% of time what he was going for...with experience you will be become much better at deducing your enemy's one base builds. Just remember that protoss have it worse =p. They can't see ANYTHING until they get robotic facility or hallunication. In addition, with good overlord position, you can actually see where the banshee is coming to attack and know where drops are comming. Again, with experience, I strongly believe that zerg players can use knowledge to make up for the lack of scouting information. Good luck | ||
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Chizambers
United States126 Posts
On August 14 2010 23:03 DreamSailor wrote: Why didn't you have any queens? 2 Queens can easily take out a couple of Banshees, just like 2 queens can take out like four voidrays using Transfuse. 2 queens and one overseer was the solution, not a hydra den. An earlier lair would've given you more firepower. Against terran and protoss, I almost never go early speedlings. Its just not worth it imo. Its better to put down a couple spinecrawlers at your mineral line, get your lair up, then move onto hydralisks/muta. Getting a queen up and spreading creep is almost as effective as speedlings in your own base. 2 Queens can easily kill 4 voidrays using transfuse? Umm.. no. 2 voids yes, maybe 3 if they both have full energy. But who has 2 queens sitting around with full energy. Any player with good macro is going to be spawning larva every cooldown, and spreading creep tumors. If I have 2+ queens that means I either delayed my lair, or fast expanded and got a second queen at expo.. and if that I the case my queens are seperated and can get picked off by 2 voids. Also, losing a queen is such a huge setback for Zerg. I almost always get speedlings as well. Against Terran they are great at fighting off that annoying hellion or reaper harass and closing the distance on small groups of MM. Against Protoss it helps surround and chase down stalkers. Stalkers without support get destroyed by speedlings, and can't run away. Also, Speedling run-bys into the nat and main mineral lines can also be very successful. I will occasionally send 8-12 speedlings at an opponents mineral line and can in most cases take out at least 4-5 workers, and in best cases against bad or distracted opponents destroy them all. | ||
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Bitters
Canada303 Posts
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raph
United States204 Posts
edit: i meant overseer | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 14 2010 23:03 DreamSailor wrote: Why didn't you have any queens? 2 Queens can easily take out a couple of Banshees, just like 2 queens can take out like four voidrays using Transfuse. 2 queens and one overseer was the solution, not a hydra den. An earlier lair would've given you more firepower. Against terran and protoss, I almost never go early speedlings. Its just not worth it imo. Its better to put down a couple spinecrawlers at your mineral line, get your lair up, then move onto hydralisks/muta. Getting a queen up and spreading creep is almost as effective as speedlings in your own base. im calling mega bullshit. 2 queens dont even take down 1 voidray 2v4 with transfuse. and they dont even come close 2v2 because nobody has fucking energy to spare that early in the game, people need to stop acting like transfuse is even an option in the early/mid game because any good zerg has 0 energy on queens for a long time. and 2 queens lose to 2 banshees straight up. 1queen < 1 banshee 1queen < 1 voidray edit: quoted wrong guy xD | ||
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bodycount
Poland36 Posts
On August 17 2010 23:05 raph wrote: im calling mega bullshit. 2 queens dont even take down 1 voidray 2v4 with transfuse. and they dont even come close 2v2 because nobody has fucking energy to spare that early in the game, people need to stop acting like transfuse is even an option in the early/mid game because any good zerg has 0 energy on queens for a long time. and 2 queens lose to 2 banshees straight up. 1queen < 1 banshee 1queen < 1 voidray edit: quoted wrong guy xD well said, couldn't believe my eyes that someone would spread something so false. Queens are decent, true, but they won't have any energy and you need to have more than he has voids/banshees. And it only works in range of 2-4 units. 2 voids vs 2 queens (+2 in queue)? BAD LUCK. 1st two die, 2nd batch comes and dies. Everyday stuff for me. | ||
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NineSpot
7 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
i propose that observers be built from cybernetics core... get real... given that zerg has so many scouting options already, another one would just be overkill... i honestly wish my pylons could fly all over the map to scout a zerg after he killed my probe. let's not forget that you can get overlord speed just slightly slower than you can get overseer... at this point of the game is the point of game you are talking about anyways. as for your MM situation, I am pretty sure its possible to get an overseer out before the opponent gets 4 banshees... so sure that it has happened to me before.. if your opponent is waiting to get 4 banshees.. you should probably have half the map given the fact that he's so passive... you should also already have an overlord net surrounding his base and see the banshees coming a mile away... build another queen.. use transfuse.. yawn-fail-post imo | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
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s[O]rry
Canada398 Posts
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CruS
Sweden218 Posts
-> What about P? We lack early scouting aswell?? You have decent AA on tier 1. One banshee will not destroy P. Detection for cloak is decent for both Z and P and that is not the issue. You also will have your AA in the same composition you would go for normally to defend any kind of marine/marauder push. -> What about T?? We need to waste 270 minerals on a scan that reveals less than sacrificing two overlords!! First of all you are not wasting 270 minerals on a scan, you are delaying it. Secondly, the marines in a standard composition is sufficient to hold off any super early banshee/voidray. -> What about T/P scouting a zerg? our scouts die to lings and we can't see shit for ages. Zerg is the reactive race of Starcraft 2. You do not have to worry about the different openings Z can do as much as we have to worry about what you are going to do. Lings/Blings or Roaches? Wallin and standard compositions deals with this with ease. Only once we hit Lair it would be crutial to find out what's up, and you have your oberservers then. The actual openings you would like to know is when we expand, and that is easily scouted. -> Sacrificing overlords are awesome and easy just pinch two from both sides. This is a pretty costly way of scouting and it is very likely to not find what it's looking for (depending on maps, the smaller the base the better it is) -> Get lair asap before lingspeed ffs! Lingspeed is absolutely necessary if I want to be able to defend a normal push early - especially from T. -> You can easily have 2 queens defending against anything and "2 queens can fend of 4 voidrays" (lol). Queens delay Lair tech like crazy. They are build really slow and no, they cannot defend that good. However, I tend to get them just to have a chance. -> What is the difference between SC2 and SC1 in terms of zerg scouting abilities. We have better scouting abilities in SC2 in mid game. Early game it is the same. The difference is not that, but is in the amount of openings that we have to worry about. Units like Banshee and Voidrays winning the games singlehandedly if we do not have sufficient AA, which in itself is super costly in terms of either minerals or tech. In starcraft : brood war we would have had hydras on tier 1 to deal with this. | ||
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