|
I see no issue in ZvP. You can easily tell what build the protoss is going into with simple vision of their army numbers, or even if you do get a ovie into their base.
ZvT is a completely different story and is what OP is probably raging about. I sympathize as well. Its true that you have to sac an overlord to see what the terran is up to. Marines will make short work of an overlord and as such terrans can hide their tech with so much ease. Their increased mineral income lets them get out cheap ground forces (marines, marauder, hellion), fooling you while teching up other units with little issue. Its not until you get lair and ovie speed or changling do you get a chance to fully run around their base. But all terran has to do is scan once or twice at your main or nat and they immediately know what your entire base and army situation is.
Alas, as Zerg I've changed my build style so much that I get early spore crawlers/multiple queens regardless of whether or not I've actually seen a starport.
|
On August 18 2010 02:19 Morayfire73 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 02:14 Ballistixz wrote:
simple solution i think. make the changelings an untimed unit(and keep the ability to change forms) or a cloaked untimed unit(without keeping the ability to change forms). should solve it imo.
the latter half would make the changling into a ground based observer. An even better solution would be able to make them be able to wall climb. That way you can sneak one in and abuse cliffs like all the other races do.
thats unneeded since usually u can almost always sneak a overlord and drop a changling into a dark corner of a base or expansion. the problem there tho is that it becomes painfully obvious that a changling is in there base if ur oppoenent has half a brain to see that a lone unit is wandering in there base and moving on its own...
thats why i say have it untimed or just make it cloakable.
|
I hate some things with Zerg but I think Zerg has the best scouting of any race.
All you have to do is sacrifice and overlord or 2 with proper TIMING.
I hated it at first, but knowing when to sacrifice an overlord makes it great.
|
On August 18 2010 05:18 leeznon wrote:
I hate some things with Zerg but I think Zerg has the best scouting of any race.
All you have to do is sacrifice and overlord or 2 with proper TIMING.
I hated it at first, but knowing when to sacrifice an overlord makes it great.
Good Terrans also tend to build their tech right at the edges of their base so your ol usually gets the full picture.
The default changeling unit should be a Thor - that way terran players think twice before attacking it.
|
sacrificing two overlords is still cheaper than scanning, did anyone point this out yet?
For the archaic players who still think scanning costs no minerals - mules harvest alongside SCV's allowing you to supersaturate your mineral line, mining out your main that much quicker so you can move your scv's onto another base. Every mule is the equivalent of 6 scv's being instantly built, it brings in 270 minerals over its lifetime - minerals that can be counted as 'extra' minerals so long as you expand beyond your main during the course of the game.
|
On August 18 2010 04:57 a176 wrote:
I see no issue in ZvP. You can easily tell what build the protoss is going into with simple vision of their army numbers, or even if you do get a ovie into their base.
ZvT is a completely different story and is what OP is probably raging about. I sympathize as well. Its true that you have to sac an overlord to see what the terran is up to. Marines will make short work of an overlord and as such terrans can hide their tech with so much ease. Their increased mineral income lets them get out cheap ground forces (marines, marauder, hellion), fooling you while teching up other units with little issue. Its not until you get lair and ovie speed or changling do you get a chance to fully run around their base. But all terran has to do is scan once or twice at your main or nat and they immediately know what your entire base and army situation is.
Alas, as Zerg I've changed my build style so much that I get early spore crawlers/multiple queens regardless of whether or not I've actually seen a starport.
I was talking about PvT. Toss has the same exact issue that Zerg do with scouting, but no one bugs out about it. I am either forced to robo and obs asap and react, or roll the dice with something else. Scouting the front door + proper OL scouting should take care of everything, just as it did in BW.
|
On August 18 2010 05:44 positronix wrote:
sacrificing two overlords is still cheaper than scanning, did anyone point this out yet?
For the archaic players who still think scanning costs no minerals - mules harvest alongside SCV's allowing you to supersaturate your mineral line, mining out your main that much quicker so you can move your scv's onto another base. Every mule is the equivalent of 6 scv's being instantly built, it brings in 270 minerals over its lifetime - minerals that can be counted as 'extra' minerals so long as you expand beyond your main during the course of the game.
If you want to point out opportunity costs for scouting, then don't take overlords at face value either. Sacing overlords involves the 200 replacement cost, two larvae, being supply capped or commiting to resources in advance (time value either way), and STILL risking the possibility of not seeing anything at all. So factor all of that in and then re-evaluate the relative costs (or call your brokerage rep if you don't know how).
|
So 100 mineral overlords are to expensive now?
|
................Instead of having drones getting 300 mineral for extra hatchy. Why don't you guy use those drones for gas for early lair? Why always have to fast expand when you are not even max 24 drones for your 1st base mineral?
................I personally love to use the 300 minerals for extra overlords for my roaches. Roaches + zergling is best for vs toss zerg and terran. Unless they fast tech to air. This game early air < early ground though. With good gaming sense you'll know if your enemy is teching or not. Just look at how many attacking units they are having and stuff.
.............If Zerg is not good scout for early-mid game, how about toss? Toss can't scout zerg with zerglings running around. Terran can't scout zerg unless they throw away 1 mule.
............. This is a QQ thread XD Someone who doesn't know much about how the game works  use strategy.
|
On August 18 2010 06:11 whomybuddy wrote:................Instead of having drones getting 300 mineral for extra hatchy. Why don't you guy use those drones for gas for early lair? Why always have to fast expand when you are not even max 24 drones for your 1st base mineral? ................I personally love to use the 300 minerals for extra overlords for my roaches. Roaches + zergling is best for vs toss zerg and terran. Unless they fast tech to air. This game early air < early ground though. With good gaming sense you'll know if your enemy is teching or not. Just look at how many attacking units they are having and stuff. .............If Zerg is not good scout for early-mid game, how about toss? Toss can't scout zerg with zerglings running around. Terran can't scout zerg unless they throw away 1 mule. ............. This is a QQ thread XD Someone who doesn't know much about how the game works use strategy.
^ This, This thread reeks of QQ an of course it starts with "This is a not qq thread" like all the other that have been spamming the SC2 section.
|
Pretty much, QQing that you can't quadriple expand with 22 food before you get your first gas geyser and then saying how you can't afford overseer early game and scout because overlords fly too slow.. lawl...
|
scouting hasn't changed much from BW but what has is most notably the number of viable options T now has to throw at you compared to BW days.
I don't think it is as much of a scouting problem as is plainly whats available to Z to use compared to other races. I think we just need to be patient until the expansion.
|
Scouting is definitely not the issue here. You need to be diligent with both ovie sacing and ling up ramps to see unit/building compositions. Try to get overseer asap (as gas allows) and changeling that shit.
|
On August 18 2010 05:44 positronix wrote:
sacrificing two overlords is still cheaper than scanning, did anyone point this out yet?
For the archaic players who still think scanning costs no minerals - mules harvest alongside SCV's allowing you to supersaturate your mineral line, mining out your main that much quicker so you can move your scv's onto another base. Every mule is the equivalent of 6 scv's being instantly built, it brings in 270 minerals over its lifetime - minerals that can be counted as 'extra' minerals so long as you expand beyond your main during the course of the game.
no its not, u terrans need to just stop with that argument. in no way whatsoever is it the same thing. scanning is FREE money income. an overlord is not.
all your doing is spending ENERGY to gain 270 minerals over time. 50 energy. thats it. sacifricing an over lord you have to spend actuall money and 8 supply. and most of the time its unbaerably slow and wont get a good scout in so u need to upgrade overlord speed which costs 100 minerals and 100 gas. then u need to morph to overseers which costs another 100 minerals and 100 gas for each overlord. so to get a good effective scout u need to spend 100, on the overlord. 100/100 on the upgrade, and 100/100 to morph into a over seer. a total of 300 minerals and 200 gas to get a good effective scout. and this is without even including the cost of upgrading to lair to even have this scouting ability available.
so no, stop saying its the same thing and stop saying its equal. 200minerals and 100 gas for a scout over 50 energy is not the same fucking thing. and if that scout so happens to DIE (because u can kill it and prevent it from scouting unlike a scan) then u also loose 8 supply. and u will have to spend another 200 minerals and 100 gas to get that scout/supply back.
this problem is non existant for terran. they dont have to worry about something dying. they dont have to worry about wall ins. they literally press a fucking button and click somewhere on the screen and everything is revealed.
|
This same timing exists against Protoss too, after wall off before observer. Having the option to use overlords at all seems better than no chance at all.
|
Having OL speed a hatchery level research (T1) wouldn't be a bad idea, but again, just like the idea of having Burrow at hatchery level, I don't think it would be put to much use, as the gas usage delays lair tech quite a bit.
Best to sack an overlord (from the side/back of the base).
|
On August 14 2010 11:40 hadoken5 wrote:Poll: Should Zerg's early-mid game scouting be fixed?(Please read post)Yes, it happens at the most critical time in the game. (627) 62% No, zerg does not have a problem scouting at this point in the game. (281) 28% Poster is idiot, and I didn't read his post. > (54) 5% I don't know, I have no knowledge of Zerg and cannot make a fair judgement. (36) 4% No. it's not too important to know what your opponent is doing at this point in the game. (11) 1% 1009 total votes Your vote: Should Zerg's early-mid game scouting be fixed?(Please read post) (Vote): Yes, it happens at the most critical time in the game.
(Vote): No, zerg does not have a problem scouting at this point in the game.
(Vote): No. it's not too important to know what your opponent is doing at this point in the game.
(Vote): I don't know, I have no knowledge of Zerg and cannot make a fair judgement.
(Vote): Poster is idiot, and I didn't read his post. >
- Zerg is a reactionary race in its purest form. It NEEDS to know what his opponent is doing and how to counter it.
This is the problem that many Zerg players are having these days. Maybe Zerg was better at reacting in BW but in SC2 Zerg players that beat me (Diamond Terran) are ones that try to react, Zerg players are not aggressive enough and when they do have some offensive success (ie; muta harass) they just try that over and over again (suiciding mutas into defenses).
My message to Zerg who have ZvT troubles: be more aggressive (but avoid the main army), do alot of attacking infrastructure with smaller armies (think of how Terran uses hellions) especially with units that arent super gas heavy (lings/blings/roaches). Macro hard, Micro harder.
|
It would be very cool to have default overlord speed increased a bit, maybe 20%. It would certainly help with mid game scouting.
|
On August 18 2010 06:51 Darkstar_X wrote:
This same timing exists against Protoss too, after wall off before observer. Having the option to use overlords at all seems better than no chance at all.
Tosses can go for hallucinated phoenix (or phoenix I suppose, though that's of less use). People usually see its research as unnecesary, but I have found it to be of great use (before combat as well), especially so if you don't let your opponent kill your hallucinated scouting unit, so he might not be aware of it.
|
I am still really baffled by this. Zerg early game scouting is so much better than Protoss as is their early game detection system. The only race that should really be complaining is Protoss here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
