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Hmm... Nice thread.
I think I agree that Zerg should have better scouting, not because they had better in BW (they still had the same methods), but because of all the aggressive openings the other races can NOW do against Zerg. I mean, you can cheese, do harass with a multitude of different units, and they require not only different unit types but DIFFERENT number of units. The fact is Overlord clamping (even with sacrificing three Overlords), fast Lair tech or just getting one of each building is very detrimental. Note that not only does this waste so much minerals and gas, BUT it eats into their economy and production of drones. If we go for our own 1/1/1 build, we WILL be behind the Terran and Protoss.
Better yet, this need for early scouting (I stress on the need: you always need to watch out for Banshees and Void Rays because they can win games outright- geez, I can't believe the number of people who do just this, expect to win outright and just allin, no transition whatsoever- they even get pissed when I win when they do this) is fueled by a lack of a safe standard opening and lack of decent AA (Queens, sigh) at the start. I mean, what build can you think of that can adequately deal with reaper harass, hellion harass, banshee harass, 2 gates, 4 gates, Phoenixes, Void Rays, mech pushes, thor drops, and other shenanigans at the same time? Zerg is very vulnerable and really just downright impossible to play in the early games because of these openings. SC2 is asking way too much of Zerg.
And no you can't just say, "send in three lings to the front. If he has X, then he is going X". Terrans and Protoss are good at getting a good composition to defend so you can't make guesses of how he spends his gas/minerals. They can hide buildings quite well.
We need: better AA at the start so stuff like Banshees and Void Rays can be dealt with
We need: larger maps so we have more time to set up against different openings and pushes
We need: better scouting so that we can find out his tech so we can react to it.
We need: a powerful early game unit/s when HoTS comes out so we can do good against all these openings.
Right now its a guessing game. If we can get better scouting in the early game, we CAN react in time. But if we don't scout early enough, don't find out what the heck he is doing, we can't do crap. We're playing in the dark, and most likely gonna get caught with our pants down, when we expect an early Banshee raid, and he goes for straight up mech push.
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I can't believe terrans actually have the nerve to post about scan costing them precious minerals (that they have too much of anyway). Even if we were to accept that argument, terrans have an overlord that flies at pretty much double speed and has 1000 hp. It's called a rax.
And about toss scouting, tosses do not automatically lose every game where they can't scout the enemy and guess their build properly early game.
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Go go Overseer at evo chamber 
Would be great.
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move overlord speed to T1? Would delay Lair tech significantly. Kind of like hallucination research for sentries. Also, we would see more zerg drops >
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Boost OL HP by 60. OL speed @ T1, but costs 50 extra minerals.
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or alternatively, you can drop an evo chamber in his main via cancel hatch creep, then scout with the broodlings when it blows up.
(Yeah, it Is silly, but the alternative is to sac multiple overlords just for this)
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I agree with this so much. I don't know if Zerg really is a "reaction race", but when fighting against Terran, I am LOST. He blocks his base. I can do a baneling bust, but it's a risk to take, and I hate doing all-in builds or so. I see lots of Marines and Marauders, so I prepared Zerglings, Infestors, and a little bit of Baneling+Hydra support. Next thing I knew, He pushes with 3-4 Thors with Marines and Marauders. I dealt with his Marines and Marauders with the banelings quite well, but lost my entire army doing so, thus, I can't do a counter attack. I don't have a roach warren, and I don't know what is a direct counter to Thors other than Brood Lords. Lings are too Larvae-expensive, Banelings wouldn't be too good against them, and Hydralisks each get killed in a row when he has about 3-4 Thors.
To put things short, Zergs against a walled-up match is a Blind Match unless you can sneak in a changeling that won't get caught... but that only happens on Terrans who aren't expecting them... making them too predictable.
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Boosting regular overlord speed is a bad idea, but I'm not convinced other options would be. I have a tough time scouting right now as well, and I hate being forced to tech lair and then overseer just to do it and be safe from cloaked banshees - cuz they do way too much dmg to ground to live if I fail to see them coming.
Immediately teching to lair seems the only viable option for me lately and it stunts my economy. I'm trying to figure out other ways, but I don't know what to do about it really.
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The reason zerg NEED better scouting ability is because they have NO t1/1.5 anti air except the queen. Protoss have stalkers and Terrans have marines. Zerg is COMPLETELY FUCKED if it doesn't get hydra's in time. No, spore crawlers are not the solution, they are last line of defense - who the hell makes an evo chamber before lair? Staying on t1 that long is not smart at all when you have NO idea what the other person is going.
Either zerg needs some better scouting options, hydra's be t1/1.5 (after evo instead of straight lair) or queens do better anti air damage. The ONLY reason to get hydra's is to counter early air, utterly useless unit vs anything ground.
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I think this is less of a unit problem, and more of a map problem.
That's the jist of it really. Speed isn't as much of a problem if the maps are sized sufficiently.
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On September 10 2010 01:04 danl9rm wrote:
Boosting regular overlord speed is a bad idea
Stop right there. Why? As said, terran basically has an overlord that has 5x the hp and 2x the speed for only 50 more minerals. As far as I can tell the only reason overlords are so stupidly slow is because that's how they were in SC1, and the reason that was so was because they had detection. They don't in SC2.
Would making overlords have their speed upgrade default break the game? I hardly think so. Drops still take an incredibly expensive (both time and resource wise) upgrade to get and let's not forget zerg has the weakest drops by far due to their unit strength (or lack thereof).
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easily block you till you get speed overlords? really? you do realize overseers are the same tech level as speed overlords and its instant if sacking an overlord scout didnt work while you are getting speed and you really need to get in some scouting info morph an overseer its like gaining an instant speed upgraded overlord. Yes you have to spend 100 gas but you can use it to harass them a bit while its there anyway with contaminate.
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The scenario you described is pretty much exactly how it works with Protoss as well. Strongest, most cost-effective units in the game PLUS the ability to hide tech beyond M&M behind that wall leads to tons of mis-read strategies and instantaneous losses.
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EPT
