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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
It is so much more important for zerg to scout his opponent early than it is for T or P it's a joke. As a general rule with zerg; if you cannot scout your opponent... you lose. Flat out, lose. I'm not even complaining (and I don't necessarily agree with the OP), but I think it's important for people to recognize the actual issue. P says "my scout isn't good either why don't we get a better scout too!" Because you don't need a successful early scout to live past early-mid game 90% of the time. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
We can just give all zerg players built in map hacks while we're at it. I play zerg and I have no trouble scouting out what I need. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
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StarcraftPlayer
2 Posts
-Boost [25] (Makes them move fairly faster) -Observe [25] (Makes an overlord see a bit farther) -Spit [0.9 per second] (releases creep) - I know overlords already have this, but usually people just leave 1 overlord at one spot spitting out creep, and don't really pay attention to it... Although doing this could cause problems like High Templars having the ability to feedback them, but seriously ... who feedbacks an overlord? Just an idea  | ||
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sl10
Canada37 Posts
On August 14 2010 14:07 Goobus wrote: I hate the way people throw around the word "viable." What the fuck does that even mean? Do you mean sacrificing an OL after getting OL speed to be cost inefficient? If that's what you're saying, you would need to back it up with some ARGUMENTS as to why it is in fact cost inefficient. Overall, your post means almost nothing. trying looking up big words you dont know; might learn something. vi·a·ble practicable; workable: a viable alternative. to op, increased natural OL speed would be nice, but i dont think its necessary. OL is fine, and overseers can scout well enough during early midgame | ||
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HEROwithNOlegacy
United States850 Posts
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:28 KaiserJohan wrote: Scouting isnt the problem os ZvX early. The problem is just surviving. 5rax reaper harrass into reaper/marauder/marine push is freaking over the top This, survival is the problem. Also with 4 gate. I feel like buildings really shouldn't be armored, it's kind of silly for them to take so much damage from units. I mean sure Spine Crawlers do extra damage to armor but that hardly offsets the fact that it's sooo damn weak and expensive. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:14 RoarMan wrote: Agreed, Zerg scouting is not that much of a problem. Zerg can also establish a lot of map control, more so then the Terran or Protoss player. Although it would be nice to see Changeling buffed ( Changelings are so super obvious, ffs if you click on them it says "Changeling") I don't think it's necessary. I can't comment on wether or not Zerg players scouting is stronger or weaker then Protoss, but I don't feel like Zerg has scouting issues. Zerg has issues, just not with scouting. Yea really the timings in SC2 are so fucking random, but it may just be the fact that the meta game is not as developed as Brood War yet. It really does feel like things are waay to sped up in Sc2, which is why we are having the feeling that "scouting" is the problem as there's a very small window of opportunity to react to certain things. Nothing about the metagame. Macro mechanics are boosting shit way too much, depreciating the value of information, increasing the power and unpredictability of han bangs (one single timing attacks). Inititally probably a good idea from Blizzard in order to try to remove "dead air" time. But makes for a way too volatile game than we'd have prefered. Terran macro mechanic is literally designed for 1base aggression. As long as they manage to keep the pressure on or keep you on the same amount of bases, they will always win. Zerg macro mechanic is designed to be fucking broken any time they have too easy a time surviving the early game. Mostly applies to the vP matchup, as P actually have to counterexpand aggressively themselves to keep up with Z, whereas terran doesn't. Terran 2 base on full saturation is essentially 2.6 effective bases. Zerg can't really afford to build enough drones, or expand enough vs T, as T's designed to be such an aggressive race. It doesn't matter that the terran stays on 1base long, because the full saturation+mule more often than not matches the scarcely saturated zerg on 2bases. Once zerg is able to produce drones again, terran usually is in the process of floating his second CC to expo, easily claiming the income lead again, despite expanding very very late. P is safer vs T because their macro mechanic can boost army production, and because it doesn't require as much minerals/minute at the start to produce workers as compared to Z. Ps advantage in PvT only usually lasts to the 5th minute or so, which is usually signified by them standing with some units or a bunch of stalkers below the terran ramp/wall-in. As we move towards full saturation terran once again takes the lead, and the big big problem of the PvT matchup becomes apparent. P can't expand safely without getting run over, as T explodes in the midgame. Likewise, T usually can't FE in the early game without a huge gamble, as P's econ and production is boosted in this period of the game. So what you're left with is a fucking borefest of 4gate builds and 1base all-ins, all fighting to be more extreme than the other. On the other end you've got zerg, because of the inherent weakness of their units, forced to expand quickly. Essentially they are gambling as much as the other races do on their extreme timing attacks, only zerg are on the other end of the spectrum: producing drones for as long as humanly possible and making educated guesses as to when the incoming attack is due. ZvP is more balanced because zerg can wait for much longer before having to decide. ZvT is ruthless because zerg blindly have to decide 1½ minute before terran moves out whether they need the speedlings upgrade/roaches or the quick lair. | ||
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mrd33ds
Djibouti30 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:24 Ksyper wrote: So you are saying that zerg should always be able to scout the enemy base without losing anything. We can just give all zerg players built in map hacks while we're at it. I play zerg and I have no trouble scouting out what I need. If you say u have no problem, then how about you add some advice for this guy instead of just acting like youre a total bad*** zerg player? | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On September 04 2010 08:29 travis wrote: so u admit zerg already has better scouting than protoss but your solution to zerg woes is to give them EVEN BETTER scouting. clearly the issue couldn't maybe, just maybe, be something other than the scouting. also, i didn't even display any logic in my post. i just posted 2 statements, one of opinion and one of fact. so i don't know what logic it is that is flawed. Zerg scouting is decent early-game, but the fact that scouting (Terran) tech involves the loss of an overlord and that Zerg early-game is already hard-pressed for resources to expand / tech with, I think improving Zerg scouting is one way to help boost Z early game survivability. Otherwise, Z has no way of going for economy over aggression. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Though I do agree with the point made that zerg scouting is more critical than other races. With a much more reactive playstyle, zerg has the need to know what the enemy is doing, composition-wise, in order to win. | ||
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McFoo
United Kingdom180 Posts
On August 14 2010 11:40 hadoken5 wrote: - Zerg is a reactionary race in its purest form. It NEEDS to know what his opponent is doing and how to counter it. Zerg is no more "reactionary" than any other race. None of the races have strict, determined, game-long build orders that don't deviate at all regardless of what the opponent is doing; and neither race starts off the game with no plan/build at all, just with the idea: "Ok, I can't do anything until I know what he's doing." All races require action and reaction. If T makes a lot marines and Z throws down a Baneling nest and if Z makes a lot of mutas and T makes a lot of turrets and an armory for thors; who is the "reactionary race"? | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
And as other people have noted, protoss kind of gets the short stick too. They can't scout again until they have observers. I would like to point something out though. Protoss can hide their tech in a corner of the map. They just need one pylon and one tech building, and the enemy won't know what they are doing until it's potentially too late. Terrans and zerg have a harder time doing this, so it kind of evens out that terran can scout protoss' base with scans but protoss can't scout terran's. | ||
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StupidFatHobbit
United States98 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:47 LaLuSh wrote:<big post about macro mechanics breaking game> all of this is absolutely dead-on | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
I feel its one of the only imbalances left in the ZvT matchup after this patch. You don't know what the Terrans doing behind that wall, ever. Atleast againist a good terran, who leaves marines on the edges so no ovies can get in. | ||
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Lunatic918
United States2 Posts
Some of these maps are obviously too small. Take the Idra v Morrow Steppes of War game 4 at IEM for example: I would suggest downloading the replay itself and watching the timing on the lair, overseer and timing push. While Idra could have obtained his Overseer about 20 seconds faster, it most probably would not have allowed him to recover due to lack of resources / larva. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:24 Ksyper wrote: So you are saying that zerg should always be able to scout the enemy base without losing anything. We can just give all zerg players built in map hacks while we're at it. I play zerg and I have no trouble scouting out what I need. If you are at any sort of high skill level you are lying. You do have trouble scouting Terran in particular. No amount of tricks you can think of will change the fact that Overlords are slow as sin and a half decent terran player will kill it before it sees anything of note. Perfect wallins 100% of the time prevent ling scouts. The only time youre getting good scouting against a T is if the T is a terrible player | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:20 Leeoku wrote: i definetly like overseer an evo chamber tech Then imo zerg would be able to contaminate buildings so much earlier and just delay macro maybe a little too much. | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
On September 04 2010 10:29 McFoo wrote: Zerg is no more "reactionary" than any other race. None of the races have strict, determined, game-long build orders that don't deviate at all regardless of what the opponent is doing; and neither race starts off the game with no plan/build at all, just with the idea: "Ok, I can't do anything until I know what he's doing." All races require action and reaction. If T makes a lot marines and Z throws down a Baneling nest and if Z makes a lot of mutas and T makes a lot of turrets and an armory for thors; who is the "reactionary race"? Do you even play zerg? it doesn't seem like you know what you are talking about - the majority of ppl who posted here would disagree with you. Zerg IS a reactionary race. | ||
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