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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On September 04 2010 13:53 Antares777 wrote: Then imo zerg would be able to contaminate buildings so much earlier and just delay macro maybe a little too much. Make contaminate unlocked with lair. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
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NIJ
1012 Posts
I see zero problems. Too bad you can't see what's going on whenever you want. So sad. Or if your opponent is trying real hard to hide something. Its not like P doesn't have to fight to scout either. Oh noes. And T has to pay their priviledge with limited energy. Energy that now conflicts with their econ, so its even more balanced than sc1. You want to make scouting easier, might as not have fog. What's the point? Fighting to scout and fighting to hide has been part of the game. Getting fooled by couple of random units then being pwned by hidden counter army has also been part of the game since sc1. Faking building a building then cancelling after scan/scout leaves has also been part of a game. Why all this effort if scouting is easy? Watch some bw games. I wouldn't blame someone for losing to a well hidden plan, pros lose like that sometimes too.. yet at the same time, pros also realize something is fishy most of the time and work harder to scout when they're suspicious. Why? Cause that's what seperates good players from the bad players that just go by what they see instead of trying to get in other players mind. Don't just play by what you see and actually play the game. | ||
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Holyknight_127
United States82 Posts
14 gas 14 pool into muta/speedling/baneling can solve a bunch of problems. It is good against SEVERAL unit combos, so a scouting mistake vs Terran isn't insta gg. The early ling speed should be able to deal with the reaper threat (or any early game threat for that matter) in low numbers, up until there's too many so that you need a couple of roaches to stop the harass. I won't have to worry too much about early attacks. For banshees, zergs can opt to steal gas to delay banshee tech and scout early enough to get more queens. IMHO rushing to hydras screws up economy and makes you vulnerable to tank pushes (Not to mention how slow they are). I don't NEED my lair to be finished when i see the starport. Instead, I go straight to muta almost all the time. I don't need to worry about my lair timing, or what to make after it is finished. Going straight to muta is also good vs thor drops. Vs marine tank, attack before T sieges with mutas and lings Vs MM same thing Scouting stays strong in mid game with map control. As you can see, this build alone is very, very flexible, and that means scouting isn't AS important as it would be. Once again, I can survive alot that the T can throw. However, this still doesn't solve the scouting problem so ovys must still be sacrificed early game. The only proper solution i can think of is increasing sight/speed. Adding upgrades means a delayed lair, and no one wants a delayed lair. No one wants to lose 100 minerals for nothing =( My 2 cents | ||
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ci_esteban
United States217 Posts
On August 14 2010 12:01 synapse wrote: I wish overlord speed was back to 50/50  This is totally the best solution. If concussive shells and nitro packs are 50/50 upgrades why can't OL speed be that cheap? :'( | ||
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ubiquitousnewt
9 Posts
On September 04 2010 09:24 Ksyper wrote: So you are saying that zerg should always be able to scout the enemy base without losing anything. I don't see why not, terran pretty much does. It's hard to say they "lose" out on minerals that are basically a free CC energy based economy boost. If they didn't have it, they could just ruddy well build workers like everyone else. | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
Some people are definitely not qualified or smart enough (or perhaps too ignorant?) to talk about what's going on. I think this entire discussion speaks to some of the core problems currently in sc2. I agree that zerg scouting is not necessarily bad, depending on how you define that term, but zerg REQUIRE a certain level of information early game in order to adequately defend. Different aggressive strategies require wildly different kinds of defenses, and properly hidden build orders are simply impossible to scout regardless of what you do, if the enemy (particularly terran) is good enough and knowledgeable enough to hide them. Once again, this is not a comparison of zerg scouting vs p or t scouting. P and T as races operate entirely differently than zerg, and scouting is significantly less important for them (they both have several builds that you can perform blindly that do very well against a huge number of enemy builds). 2 Issues I think are important to come out of this thread: 1. The maps are very bad for zerg. While I'm not saying that maps will simply fix many of the balance issues (a la bw), I think it would be interesting to test different styles of maps (larger base separation, more easily defended naturals, less wiggle room for reapers to hop up and down cliffs, etc). A map like steppes of war is just stupidly hard for a zerg to properly defend on, for a number of reasons. 2. The number of early viable game openings for p and t (particularly t) is just obscene. As a T, I can open: hellion harass, marine hellion, marine tank, fast banshee, reaper, megarax, thor drop, 3 rax, marauder hellion, ad infinitum. There are so many ridiculously powerful openings for terran that it is unrealistic to find a set of zerg openings (that can transition easily to one another) that can account for the sheer versatility of them all. Once again, I don't necessarily think it is a scouting issue (although that may in fact be a way to resolve things), but it certainly speaks to some of the issues of the game in its current state. And because people like to respond impulsively to people rather than with rational thinking, I'm a strict terran player, so I have no real agenda as far as talking about zerg issues. | ||
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Rebornx3
Canada200 Posts
On August 14 2010 12:43 L0thar wrote: Agreed, I like that too. It doesn't change almost anything, but allow zerg to scout walled off opponent. You are going to lose the overlord anyway (and you rightfully should, terran scan also isn't free...actually its cost is really similar to one overlord). I wonder how it would change the drop mechanics. You could drop incredibely quickly...but will you make it in time lol? you're going to accidently hit the hotkey for the self destruct and bam goes your doom drop. | ||
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sC)oRacle
Netherlands40 Posts
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sirkyan
211 Posts
On September 08 2010 14:39 Rebornx3 wrote: you're going to accidently hit the hotkey for the self destruct and bam goes your doom drop. Then the units inside the overlord could be dropped... That's a real doom drop! 10 overlords, stacked, KABOOM BABY -> lots of units to make him lag :-] | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:30 NIJ wrote: Its not like zerg had same issue to deal with in sc1... yet high level players work with what they got and make it work. I see zero problems. Too bad you can't see what's going on whenever you want. So sad. Or if your opponent is trying real hard to hide something. Its not like P doesn't have to fight to scout either. Oh noes. And T has to pay their priviledge with limited energy. Energy that now conflicts with their econ, so its even more balanced than sc1. You want to make scouting easier, might as not have fog. What's the point? Fighting to scout and fighting to hide has been part of the game. Getting fooled by couple of random units then being pwned by hidden counter army has also been part of the game since sc1. Faking building a building then cancelling after scan/scout leaves has also been part of a game. Why all this effort if scouting is easy? Watch some bw games. I wouldn't blame someone for losing to a well hidden plan, pros lose like that sometimes too.. yet at the same time, pros also realize something is fishy most of the time and work harder to scout when they're suspicious. Why? Cause that's what seperates good players from the bad players that just go by what they see instead of trying to get in other players mind. Don't just play by what you see and actually play the game. obviously you dont play zerg. i dont mean that in an offensive way. what i mean is zerg is a REACTIONARY RACE. meaning we HAVE to play by what we see and scout. we cant just play the game. if we see a starport with a tech lab, we HAVE to prepare for banshees. we cant just go, "oh well banshees might come doesnt matter ill just continue my plan and hide behind my wall and turrets." we HAVE to invest in some AA units. being the hydra unless we are already building a spire, which could be unlikely if the T player has harassed us well enough. meaning we spend less minerals and gas on units that can combat any other army composition. then what happen if they didnt get banshees, but instead just getting a raven for their mech army because they anticipate our hydra response so the ravens PDD will help them wipe our hydra force even more so then before. then the resources we used to fight off the banshees that might be coming are wasted. the MERE threat of banshees from seeing a tech lab on a starport FORCES us to react with AA. because if we dont we can lose right then and there. and here lies the problem. because we cant efficiently tell whether hes massing a ground army or acutally building those banshees we predicted means zerg players get caught with their pants down a hell of a lot. and unfortunaly an incorrect army composition for one fight can and will in alot of cases lose the game for us. Of course losing to a proxy building some where is fine, happens to everyone. thats not a problem with zerg, that can happen to all races. but we're not talking about proxy buildings. we're talking about zergs inability to scout in our opponent's main base. which since zerg is reactionary, is a design flaw. "lets give the one race that needs to scout the most, the least efficient way of scouting" | ||
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whateversclever
United States197 Posts
On September 08 2010 14:53 TyrantPotato wrote: obviously you dont play zerg. i dont mean that in an offensive way. what i mean is zerg is a REACTIONARY RACE. You know what makes you a reactionary race? THE FACT THAT YOU CAN REBUILD AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ARMY BY ONLY BUILDING ONE TECH STRUCTURE. No other race gets switch between their tech-trees so quickly and easily. You act like Zerg is the only race that cares what the other race does. Reality check, not true. Zerg is reactionary because they can shift their production capacity rapidly, not because of they have free scouting. | ||
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kryto
United States53 Posts
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kryto
United States53 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:30 NIJ wrote: Its not like zerg had same issue to deal with in sc1... yet high level players work with what they got and make it work. I see zero problems. Too bad you can't see what's going on whenever you want. So sad. Or if your opponent is trying real hard to hide something. Its not like P doesn't have to fight to scout either. Oh noes. And T has to pay their priviledge with limited energy. Energy that now conflicts with their econ, so its even more balanced than sc1. You want to make scouting easier, might as not have fog. What's the point? Fighting to scout and fighting to hide has been part of the game. Getting fooled by couple of random units then being pwned by hidden counter army has also been part of the game since sc1. Faking building a building then cancelling after scan/scout leaves has also been part of a game. Why all this effort if scouting is easy? Watch some bw games. I wouldn't blame someone for losing to a well hidden plan, pros lose like that sometimes too.. yet at the same time, pros also realize something is fishy most of the time and work harder to scout when they're suspicious. Why? Cause that's what seperates good players from the bad players that just go by what they see instead of trying to get in other players mind. Don't just play by what you see and actually play the game. Also this is an extremely astute summary of the situation IMO. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 08 2010 15:09 whateversclever wrote: You know what makes you a reactionary race? THE FACT THAT YOU CAN REBUILD AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ARMY BY ONLY BUILDING ONE TECH STRUCTURE. No other race gets switch between their tech-trees so quickly and easily. You act like Zerg is the only race that cares what the other race does. Reality check, not true. Zerg is reactionary because they can shift their production capacity rapidly, not because of they have free scouting. >.> we can tech switch with only one tech building? yes with a spire we can build mutas and corrupters. but to have those units at hand we must already have built the spire, and we should only be building the spire when we need the mutalisk or corrupter but you see if we prebuild a spire without knowing if we need it or not we waste minerals and gas on a building that might never be used. so we need to know if we have to build said spire. meaning we must scout whether or not we need it so we can build it. we cannot leave it till the last second because it takes 50 seconds to build the spire. but wait, the enemy has moved out, with an army which we need roaches for. but we didnt build a roach warren because we didnt know if we needed it, because we couldn't scout whether or not roaches would be the best option. BUT WAIT he also has units in this army that we need to have hydras to beat, BUT ALAS we didnt build the hydralisk den because we couldnt scout whether or not we needed it. catching on yet? in a perfect zerg favoured game we would already have every tech structure built. yet this is not the case, if we spend all our minerals and gas on getting all these structures and ALL the lenghty and expensive upgrades that are neccesary for the units and we only end up needing one of those buildings, we have just wasted several minerals and gas. so yes in a late game where we are running on 4 + bases with stockpiled minerals and gas and plenty of larva to rebuild an army we have a trait that no other race has by being able to replenish an army instantly of a completely different composition. but if our opponent lets us happily tech up to 4 bases with every building we want and all upgrades, the zerg player was going to win anyway. to react means to act based upon anothers actions. however if you do not know what the other persons actions are, you cannot react. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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Gigazing
Australia15 Posts
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
The eternal argument is that queens are zerg's supposed early anti-air. Sadly, a well-made air switch will reveal itself with at least as many banshees/void rays as there are Queens out, at which point Queens become a horrible mistaake. T & P don't suffer from this since they always have access to emergency decent anti-air, and some panicked stalkers or marines are often enough to ward off all but the most brutal tech switches. A Zerg without a hydra den, on the other hand, is royally screwed. Now I'm not going to come here and suggest hydra tier change bla bla bla, we all know that's not gonna happen. Blizzard is sure sticking to its guns like a creationist at a biology convention, but don't tell me you don't wonder sometimes... how things could be. | ||
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mumming
Faroe Islands256 Posts
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
On September 08 2010 15:41 Gigazing wrote: Noob Question: How was zerg scouting any different in brood war? On September 04 2010 14:30 NIJ wrote: Its not like zerg had same issue to deal with in sc1... yet high level players work with what they got and make it work. I see zero problems. Too bad you can't see what's going on whenever you want. So sad There were fewer viable build orders in BW for Terran, so it wasn't a complete guessing game. Reapers or banshees? Marauder heavy? Marine heavy? Tanks or hellion harass? Thor? Pick one, two, three, or all of the above. Guess wrong and you lose. Oh, and all you can see is a barracks and two supply depots. Good luck! Want that fast overseer to see what's going on? Sorry, you just lost to a three rax push. SC2 is too much build order rock-paper-scissors for the Zerg matchups. | ||
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