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No offense but I think some of the "zerg scouting is good" players are not facing opponents who are good vs zerg.
Good players know overlords won't be coming straight in, they approach from the sides. Since he's walling off anyway, might as well place extra marines/stalkers on the side so that the "overlord pinch" isn't a good option. Especially if he's going for quick air or something unusual.
Suiciding an overlord isn't even good enough, they're too slow to see anything much of the time.
Naventus: it's different from what P or T faces. Scan instantly reveals everything... just learn to use it at the right time (yes if it's too early you don't get the info you need). Protoss is in the dark early, but once an observer pops out it's an endless source of info.
Also a major factor is how you don't need to scout AGAINST zerg. When's the last time a zerg did some totally unexpected cheese build against you? It's pretty much going to be an assorted ground army every single time. Muta harrass just doesn't really happen in this game... the only thing you need to look out for is nydus. And even if mutas show up, both P and T will already have anti-air at some level.
Zerg NEEDS to scout so badly and their opponents can save the time and money and not even bother... so it confuses me why it's the other race that gets the easy all-revealing scan.
I know there's fifty zillion "my stuff is underpowered, make it stronger and nerf everyone else" idiots in every single game out there, and the wait-and-see attitude is almost always a smart one. But I think sometimes it's just pretty clear that one race needs some help... zerg consistently wins less and ranks lower across the board. (IdrA is some kind of magical superbeing, I'm not certain he actually exists)
This isn't like SC1... it's not like "oh people just haven't learned to use ____ right yet". There are so few units available to use, and there's only so much you can do with them. It's extremely unlikely mutas will become effective... they're countered so easily and harrass just isn't effective. Infestors would be good, except medivacs heal everything back up and zerg is so slow off-creep that the speed difference doesn't matter.
The ONLY thing that hasn't been explored fully is burrow... I haven't seen anyone really effectively use it with roaches to fight-heal-fight-heal and there could be some real potential there. But again, once you see it happen, just get detection... I can't imagine it would be a gamechanger.
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On August 14 2010 12:46 Selenium wrote:
Btw
What is the difference between sc1 and sc2 in terms of zerg's scouting ability?
Sc1 hydra tech(anti-air) and detection is t1
sc2 hydra tech and detection is t2
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You're just facing good players who begin teching up as soon as they kill your overlord. Send another one right after just to be sure, or something.
I often wait for terrans to scan before I make tech buildings as protoss. Same deal there.
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Personally I would love to see replays of people who think Zerg scouting is bad during early - mid game. It's not any worse than Protoss' scouting during that time, at the very least.
If you don't just fly your overlord straight in there regardless of what you see then you should get a good scout off most times. If there is a spotter pylon/depot there, go around it (OLs have greater sight range than buildings).
If you suspect there are units waiting for your overlord to come in, poke in at the wall off with a few zerglings. You'd be surprised by the number of people who will move their units to the wall at that point.
I never get less than half of their base with my overlord (most of the time I see every tech structure), and the times I do I have at least one other overlord positioned nearby in case.
All that combined with a good degree of game sense, and you should be fine. I really don't see what all the complaints are about.
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On August 14 2010 15:32 TedJustice wrote:
You're just facing good players who begin teching up as soon as they kill your overlord. Send another one right after just to be sure, or something.
It gets harder to scout with an Overlord as times passes (until you get Lair tech), not easier. The Terran will probably have more marines at the edge of his base if he wants to deny scouting for whatever reason.
That said, I recommend sacking an Overlord anyway. It's usually worth the cost.
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Again, I have to raise the question: Why not just get the lair at a reasonable time instead of complaining that you can't scout Terran late enough in the game that he could have his second large marine ball and tanks at your front door while you're still on hatchery tech?
You're talking about Terran spending thousands of minerals and hundreds of gas on his attacks and you've yet to even get 200 total gas and 150 spare minerals off two bases apparently. Early MM pressure is not so expensive to defend that you're unable to get lair, especially if he actually pushes and kill the first wave like you said you did.
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I play with a zerg player in 2v2's, and he frequently suicides an overlord just to see what the terran is doing (i don't agree with it, but it works for him) He claims it doesn't really hurt him in any way.
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On August 14 2010 15:17 chillos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 12:46 Selenium wrote:
Btw
What is the difference between sc1 and sc2 in terms of zerg's scouting ability? Sc1 hydra tech(anti-air) and detection is t1 sc2 hydra tech and detection is t2 ß
wat?
you have queens which evry Z will have and can instantly be build. if anything AA is better.
and why does detection matter? if you dont have a lair when dts/cloaked banshees knock at your dorr you did something wrong.
i dont really see the problem. as Z you atleast have the option to scout early and have a guaranteed full scout 10 secs after your lair is ready (overseer)
as a P your options are actually worse since you have no option to scout early and need that obs/phoenix to see anything.
as T you have scan which is abit tricky. either you get easy early full intel or you miss with the scan and you know exactly nothing at all with no way to compensate.
seriously, scouting is my smallest problem when i random Z. overlord sacs and the amazing overseer (in addition to lolmaphackcreep) are just fine. i def feel more often "in the dark" as p/t vs good players that snipe obs/spread&hide tech
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To those saying that P is in the same situation, it really is not. P has the ability to pressure and help dictate the pace of the game. Z has nothing like this except baneling busts (lol).
Z couuld use some help on 4 player maps, but early scouting is not guarenteed, but neither is a scan or an observer.
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On August 14 2010 13:50 Arnu wrote:
i dont know, shouldn't you already have a lair by the time 4 banshees are out? I mean, i personally don't spawn queens until i have a lair
I don't see a point in halting teching to a lair and trying to hold off with lings.
And as somebody has stated previously, an overlord pinch is a great way to scout.
And get overlord speed asap! amagad!
I did have lair completed, and right when I saw banshees I threw up my hydra den, which was right after my lai completed. But consiedring the amount of banshees (or void rays) I would have to have scouted earlier, and overlord pinch doesn't work against good players who know that if they are going to cheese then they should deny scouting by placing anti-air on both sides
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I don't think the problem is the scouting,, it's not being able to open "safe": "Oh, he's going one base, I'll just do this and adjust in case I scout blah". Right now, if I scan the right base and he makes one mistake, my harass can close the game.
PS.: banshees openers are not cheese/all-in.
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Overseer spell:
Peering:
Researched 150/100
Cost X energy per second, or just give it a cooldown.
Overseer vision is focused into a narrow beam, seeing further away but losing sight in the immediate area. Range ~10 - ~30.
Basically you activate the spell and the overseer vision becomes a few spaces wide, 15-20 spaces long, draining energy. Use this for distant scouting or spotting hard to reach spots for Nydus worm drops.
Overseer is basically a giant floating eyeball, you would think it could strain and see a lot further for a short time. but when looking further away you can't see anything close, so its easy to get sniped, have to be careful.
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On August 14 2010 22:40 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 15:17 chillos wrote:On August 14 2010 12:46 Selenium wrote:
Btw
What is the difference between sc1 and sc2 in terms of zerg's scouting ability? Sc1 hydra tech(anti-air) and detection is t1 sc2 hydra tech and detection is t2 ß wat? you have queens which evry Z will have and can instantly be build. if anything AA is better. and why does detection matter? if you dont have a lair when dts/cloaked banshees knock at your dorr you did something wrong.
'instantly be built'? I'll have you know that building a queen takes a long long time. And while it is building, you can't actually get the lair up.
Hydra's in Sc1 costed 75 minerals and 1 supply, they cost 100/50 in SC2 and cost 2 supply. AA is NOT better for zerg early game at all.
Although I do agree that having the lair up when DT's and banshees attack you should not actually be a problem at all.
Mind you I don't actually think zerg scouting, of all things, isn't the faulty screw that makes zerg so shaky. Early game overlord scouting is easy and taking xel naga towers with lings and scouting the ramps both often reveals the buildings hes using and also his army.
Scouting in the midgame is not hard at all either. Changelings give you the oppertunity to scout most of his base and speedovies can check stuff out and withdraw really easily.
Tip to the terrans out there, don't put your entire army by the choke. And don't put your tech at the sides of your base. The edges are the part that most zergs will have a good view on. Hiding your tech on the sides against zerg is both rather silly and does nothing much.
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Why didn't you have any queens?
2 Queens can easily take out a couple of Banshees, just like 2 queens can take out like four voidrays using Transfuse.
2 queens and one overseer was the solution, not a hydra den. An earlier lair would've given you more firepower.
Against terran and protoss, I almost never go early speedlings. Its just not worth it imo. Its better to put down a couple spinecrawlers at your mineral line, get your lair up, then move onto hydralisks/muta. Getting a queen up and spreading creep is almost as effective as speedlings in your own base.
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On August 14 2010 11:58 TofuD wrote:
"suggestion: make it possible to get overseers with evo chamber instead of lair"
oooo I like that one
Me too!
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On August 14 2010 22:54 Zozo wrote:
I don't think the problem is the scouting,, it's not being able to open "safe": "Oh, he's going one base, I'll just do this and adjust in case I scout blah". Right now, if I scan the right base and he makes one mistake, my harass can close the game.
PS.: banshees openers are not cheese/all-in.
That is kind of true, Zerg needs to always FE to gain an economic advantage for the mid game and their units are generally weaker, so it can't really get an all-strategy-encompasing safe build like terran. So in order for them to stay alive they NEED to be able to always know what their opponent is doing and build whatever units are suitable to fend off their opponent. I'm starting to see a lot of trick teching, and slow overlords seems to be what is preventing me from scouting, regardless of the pinch technique.
PS: a cheese is something that if scouted is useless.
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On August 14 2010 23:14 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 22:54 Zozo wrote:
I don't think the problem is the scouting,, it's not being able to open "safe": "Oh, he's going one base, I'll just do this and adjust in case I scout blah". Right now, if I scan the right base and he makes one mistake, my harass can close the game.
PS.: banshees openers are not cheese/all-in. That is kind of true, Zerg needs to always FE to gain an economic advantage for the mid game and their units are generally weaker, so it can't really get an all-strategy-encompasing safe build like terran. So in order for them to stay alive they NEED to be able to always know what their opponent is doing and build whatever units are suitable to fend off their opponent. I'm starting to see a lot of trick teching, and slow overlords seems to be what is preventing me from scouting, regardless of the pinch technique. PS: a cheese is something that if scouted is useless.
That's why it's not, banshees still hit HARD, give map control and the tech path is strong cause of ravens/vikings/medivacs.
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regardless of if yes/no, overseer I think was meant to fill this spot so maybe you'd be satisfied if overseer morph cost was reduced to 100 minerals 75gas?
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On August 14 2010 23:23 Jameser wrote:
regardless of if yes/no, overseer I think was meant to fill this spot so maybe you'd be satisfied if overseer morph cost was reduced to 100 minerals 75gas?
Not so much the cost of the overseer that is the problem, it is the accessibility of it. It takes to long to get it. And by the time you get it, it is usually too late. Someone mentioned overseer's being available for upgrade by building evo chamber. Probably better then slightly faster overlords.
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EPT
