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Contributing Factors: Why Zerg is the weakest race - Page 4

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Mr.Tinkles
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom9 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 11:45:40
August 10 2010 11:45 GMT
#61
re-balancing spawn larvae to be a more forgiving mechanic (ie, no need to execute it perfectly every 30 seconds) would make playing zerg about 9000 times easier. it is the literal need to set a timer that beeps every 30 seconds to remind you to spawn larvae that makes zerg macro such a mission.
lover de ballbag
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 11:48:22
August 10 2010 11:48 GMT
#62
On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2010 19:45 Jameser wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:42 Yuka wrote:
Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.

As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats.

I think you have it backwards, zerg playerbase is small because it's a weak race to play (unattractive),zerg's not weak because it has a small playerbase...

....Also, not only BW players are switching to SC2, so for a lot of people it takes time to understeand Zerg race, all that Larva management, etc.. You cant just make statements like this without any backing....

that's exactly what it means for the race to be weak, it's much harder to play in comparison to the other races

or maybe you have another definition of how a race would be qualified as weak
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 11:54:22
August 10 2010 11:53 GMT
#63
On August 10 2010 20:43 Kvz wrote:
1 mule returns 7 times the minerals, how is that the value of 3 scvs?

continuos use of mule, taking into account energy buildup time, spamming mule at all times gives the same collection rate as having 1 scv constantly collecting minerals, apparently. I cba doing the math but seems reasonable
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 11:55:14
August 10 2010 11:54 GMT
#64
On August 10 2010 20:48 Jameser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:45 Jameser wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:42 Yuka wrote:
Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.

As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats.

I think you have it backwards, zerg playerbase is small because it's a weak race to play (unattractive),zerg's not weak because it has a small playerbase...

....Also, not only BW players are switching to SC2, so for a lot of people it takes time to understeand Zerg race, all that Larva management, etc.. You cant just make statements like this without any backing....

that's exactly what it means for the race to be weak, it's much harder to play in comparison to the other races

or maybe you have another definition of how a race would be qualified as weak


I dont think you get it.. Its too early to "qualify" race as weak as you suppose no matter what the definition would be.

So you would make some balance changes ony because it takes more time to learn some race to play correctly and effectively? What happens when people actually start playing Zerg properly? They would win every single tournament and than Blizzard comes and makes some nerfs for Zerg.. This is absolutely contraproductive..
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:01:24
August 10 2010 11:59 GMT
#65
On August 10 2010 20:54 Everlong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2010 20:48 Jameser wrote:
On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:45 Jameser wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:42 Yuka wrote:
Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.

As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats.

I think you have it backwards, zerg playerbase is small because it's a weak race to play (unattractive),zerg's not weak because it has a small playerbase...

....Also, not only BW players are switching to SC2, so for a lot of people it takes time to understeand Zerg race, all that Larva management, etc.. You cant just make statements like this without any backing....

that's exactly what it means for the race to be weak, it's much harder to play in comparison to the other races

or maybe you have another definition of how a race would be qualified as weak


I dont think you get it.. Its too early to "qualify" race as weak as you suppose no matter what the definition would be.

it's been like this for a very long while and the argument 'it will be different in an expansion' is completely invalid, this is the game that's out and it should be balanced as is without having to wait for an expansion, if changes are needed again when the expansion comes out then yes those changes should be made even if it's just a reversal of the changes made earlier.

So you would make some balance changes ony because it takes more time to learn some race to play correctly and effectively? What happens when people actually start playing Zerg properly? They would win every single tournament and than Blizzard comes and makes some nerfs for Zerg.. This is absolutely contraproductive..


I think checkprime, ogscool,dimaga, and idra all play the race 'properly' and they all lose fairly regularly to clearly inferior terran players
ooni
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia1498 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:01:24
August 10 2010 12:01 GMT
#66
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.
Hi!
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
August 10 2010 12:04 GMT
#67
On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.

those games do not look at all the same as games in tournaments, they are filled with 6/7/8/9 pool rushes and baneling busts, if that's how you want the game to be then I guess I just don't agree

when talking balance one usually refers to non-cheese, straight-up strategies that are viable in tournament play
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
August 10 2010 12:04 GMT
#68
On August 10 2010 20:59 Jameser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2010 20:54 Everlong wrote:
On August 10 2010 20:48 Jameser wrote:
On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:45 Jameser wrote:
On August 10 2010 19:42 Yuka wrote:
Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.

As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats.

I think you have it backwards, zerg playerbase is small because it's a weak race to play (unattractive),zerg's not weak because it has a small playerbase...

....Also, not only BW players are switching to SC2, so for a lot of people it takes time to understeand Zerg race, all that Larva management, etc.. You cant just make statements like this without any backing....

that's exactly what it means for the race to be weak, it's much harder to play in comparison to the other races

or maybe you have another definition of how a race would be qualified as weak


I dont think you get it.. Its too early to "qualify" race as weak as you suppose no matter what the definition would be.

it's been like this for a very long while and the argument 'it will be different in an expansion' is completely invalid, this is the game that's out and it should be balanced as is without having to wait for an expansion, if changes are needed again when the expansion comes out then yes those changes should be made even if it's just a reversal of the changes made earlier.
Show nested quote +

So you would make some balance changes ony because it takes more time to learn some race to play correctly and effectively? What happens when people actually start playing Zerg properly? They would win every single tournament and than Blizzard comes and makes some nerfs for Zerg.. This is absolutely contraproductive..


I think checkprime, ogscool,dimaga, and idra all play the race 'properly' and they all lose fairly regularly to clearly inferior terran players


I think I will stop the discussion righ now, because we clearly have different opinions on this topic. Only I wouldn't put Idra as an example of anything but bad mannered labile player unable to any kind of self reflexion. And as far as I know, Check has been owning pretty much anybody lately..
cuppatea
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1401 Posts
August 10 2010 12:06 GMT
#69
On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.


You do realise the whole idea of the AMM is to give people evenly matched games, thus ensuring all but the very best have a win ratio hovering around the 50% mark, right?

If they nerfed Terran into oblivion next patch, the Terran guy with a 50% win ratio in gold would just be winning 50% of his games in silver instead.

The above stats say nothing about the balance of the game.
btlyger
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States470 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:13:16
August 10 2010 12:13 GMT
#70
Its funny how much of a 180 Zerg has "taken" since beta.

On beta it was always people crying about zerg being overpowered. Nerf broodlords, nerf queen larvae inject, nerf roaches to the ground! Now that its live, people are freaking out saying that Zerg can't beat the almighty terrans!

Personally, I don't think much has changed. Sure tanks are a bit stronger and roaches are a bit weaker, but overall its not DRASTICALLY different. Strategies just evolve with time, all it's going to take is one zerg player finding out an awesome build order that terran mech can't stop before people start saying Zerg is OP again.

TLDR; Zerg isn't underpowered, Terran isn't overpowered, and still no one is talking about protoss. Except void rays, screw those things.
"Minerals being mined. Minerals being mined. Minerals being mined." Learn how to post: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting
MindRush
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania916 Posts
August 10 2010 12:14 GMT
#71
On August 10 2010 15:16 geno.thebluedoll wrote:
Good point on the extra distance drones must travel depending on your starting location. I can see that having a slight disadvantage in a pro game.


c'mon .............. it's half a second later for the drone to circle the hatchery and start mining
it's not that much of an advantage ...... certainly not one to lose games because
games are lost at micro/macro/expanding/scouting there is also the "cat and mouse" aspect of the game, where you make your opponet spawn unit X, thinking it counters your unit Y.
But you just show him unit Y and mass unit Z which owns unit Y.

This is another discussion, however.

My point:
drone spawning south of hatch can't be considered an advantage whatsoever.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
August 10 2010 12:15 GMT
#72
Oh and btw I can see, why so many Zergs are complaining here, even if its too much for my taste. But what I dont get is a Protoss player, that screams "Imbalance" all over the place with tournament results as they are and Protoss players occupying top of every diamond league..
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:16:25
August 10 2010 12:16 GMT
#73
On August 10 2010 21:14 MindRush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2010 15:16 geno.thebluedoll wrote:
Good point on the extra distance drones must travel depending on your starting location. I can see that having a slight disadvantage in a pro game.

....there is also the "cat and mouse" aspect of the game, where you make your opponet spawn unit X, thinking it counters your unit Y.
But you just show him unit Y and mass unit Z which owns unit Y.
....

I think unit Z should own unit X :D
xJaCEx
Profile Joined August 2010
155 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:17:39
August 10 2010 12:16 GMT
#74
Oh there was something I wanted to bring up and I think this might be a good thread to do it. In the current map pool or at least almost every map iv seen so far every base comes with a tight ramp. I wish there was like one map at least that did not have a ramp with a ledge that you can gank units on as they are attacking. Anyhow mby it's not that big of an issue but I really think the map pool could use some work. I brought this up because it seems to me the maps favor tanks more then they do zerglings ya know.
First blood is as good as anything.
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:20:30
August 10 2010 12:18 GMT
#75
On August 10 2010 21:16 xJaCEx wrote:
Oh there was something I wanted to bring up and I think this might be a good thread to do it. In the current map pool or at least almost every map iv seen so far every base comes with a tight ramp. I wish there was like one map at least that did not have a ramp with a ledge that you can gank units on as they are attacking. Anyhow mby it's not that big of an issue but I really think the map pool could use some work. I brought this up because it seems to me the maps favor tanks more then they do zerglings ya know.

map pool is absolutely terrible and it's true zerg problems might not even exist on decent maps, BUT these are the maps people play so untill a change is made to either zerg play or the maps used I will continue complaining :D

edit: although I wouldn't be in favour of completely open bases
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
August 10 2010 12:19 GMT
#76
On August 10 2010 21:16 xJaCEx wrote:
Oh there was something I wanted to bring up and I think this might be a good thread to do it. In the current map pool or at least almost every map iv seen so far every base comes with a tight ramp. I wish there was like one map at least that did not have a ramp with a ledge that you can gank units on as they are attacking. Anyhow mby it's not that big of an issue but I really think the map pool could use some work. I brought this up because it seems to me the maps favor tanks more then they do zerglings ya know.


I think everyone would 6pool then.. :-)
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:26:45
August 10 2010 12:24 GMT
#77
On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.


Do you people who constantly try to use these numbers understand those aren't win statistics of races, but of the players who are identified as choosing that race more than another?

There aren't actually any win rates for races available to us. All those players have to do to qualify as a protoss, terran or zerg player is choose one race one game more than they've chosen the others. That's it. No one is locked into a race, it is presumptuous to think no player has ever experimented with more than one race. Those numbers prove nothing, and you should feel bad for using them

Your numbers are flawed, the most accurate numbers we'd have is the win rates of races in the various tournaments and qualifiers. It would be a small sample but also the most relevant sample, as they are typically high level players. We don't even really have to do that to show the pure terran dominance of almost every tournament since phase 2, but if someone actually went through the brackets of all these tournaments, I'd imagine you'd have at least 1000 games played. It would be a fun experiement.
cuppatea
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1401 Posts
August 10 2010 12:27 GMT
#78
On August 10 2010 21:13 btlyger wrote:
Its funny how much of a 180 Zerg has "taken" since beta.

On beta it was always people crying about zerg being overpowered. Nerf broodlords, nerf queen larvae inject, nerf roaches to the ground! Now that its live, people are freaking out saying that Zerg can't beat the almighty terrans!

Personally, I don't think much has changed. Sure tanks are a bit stronger and roaches are a bit weaker, but overall its not DRASTICALLY different. Strategies just evolve with time, all it's going to take is one zerg player finding out an awesome build order that terran mech can't stop before people start saying Zerg is OP again.

TLDR; Zerg isn't underpowered, Terran isn't overpowered, and still no one is talking about protoss. Except void rays, screw those things.


The balance of the game changed (drastically) through Blizzard patching it, not people working out different strategies. Just think back to when the Thor's anti-air attack didn't do splash damage. Terrans couldn't just go pure mech because they had no answer for mutas, whereas now 2/3 Thors will completely shut down Zerg air and the Terran can spend the rest of their resources on creating an anti-ground army.

That's what makes me laugh. The forums were flooded with Terrans crying for their race to be buffed back in the beta and now they've got their wish they come out with shit like "oh, it's too early to assess the balance of the game; let's just wait and see what happens." If you can't judge the balance of a game after only a few weeks/months then fuck it, let's go back to how it was early in the beta, when Zerg was still doing well and Terrans were the ones getting shit on.
ooni
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia1498 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:36:00
August 10 2010 12:33 GMT
#79
EDIT: Double POST accident
Hi!
ooni
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia1498 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 12:36:37
August 10 2010 12:35 GMT
#80
On August 10 2010 21:24 floor exercise wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.


Do you people who constantly try to use these numbers understand those aren't win statistics of races, but of the players who are identified as choosing that race more than another?

There aren't actually any win rates for races available to us. All those players have to do to qualify as a protoss, terran or zerg player is choose one race one game more than they've chosen the others. That's it. No one is locked into a race, it is presumptuous to think no player has ever experimented with more than one race. Those numbers prove nothing, and you should feel bad for using them

Your numbers are flawed, the most accurate numbers we'd have is the win rates of races in the various tournaments and qualifiers. It would be a small sample but also the most relevant sample, as they are typically high level players. We don't even really have to do that to show the pure terran dominance of almost every tournament since phase 2, but if someone actually went through the brackets of all these tournaments, I'd imagine you'd have at least 1000 games played. It would be a fun experiement.


It's the third table, not the second one... Go look at it. Gosh ppl are ignorant and blind. We do have win rate complilation. Blizzard's player win/lose race data is avaliable to anyone. Sighz.. Yeah "YOU" should feel bad.
Hi!
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