Contributing Factors: Why Zerg is the weakest race - Page 4

On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:

....Also, not only BW players are switching to SC2, so for a lot of people it takes time to understeand Zerg race, all that Larva management, etc.. You cant just make statements like this without any backing....

On August 10 2010 20:43 Kvz wrote:
1 mule returns 7 times the minerals, how is that the value of 3 scvs?

On August 10 2010 20:48 Jameser wrote:

that's exactly what it means for the race to be weak, it's much harder to play in comparison to the other races

or maybe you have another definition of how a race would be qualified as weak

On August 10 2010 20:54 Everlong wrote:


I dont think you get it.. Its too early to "qualify" race as weak as you suppose no matter what the definition would be.

So you would make some balance changes ony because it takes more time to learn some race to play correctly and effectively? What happens when people actually start playing Zerg properly? They would win every single tournament and than Blizzard comes and makes some nerfs for Zerg.. This is absolutely contraproductive..

On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.

On August 10 2010 20:59 Jameser wrote:

it's been like this for a very long while and the argument 'it will be different in an expansion' is completely invalid, this is the game that's out and it should be balanced as is without having to wait for an expansion, if changes are needed again when the expansion comes out then yes those changes should be made even if it's just a reversal of the changes made earlier.


I think checkprime, ogscool,dimaga, and idra all play the race 'properly' and they all lose fairly regularly to clearly inferior terran players

On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.

On August 10 2010 15:16 geno.thebluedoll wrote:
Good point on the extra distance drones must travel depending on your starting location. I can see that having a slight disadvantage in a pro game.

On August 10 2010 21:14 MindRush wrote:

....there is also the "cat and mouse" aspect of the game, where you make your opponet spawn unit X, thinking it counters your unit Y.
But you just show him unit Y and mass unit Z which owns unit Y.
....

On August 10 2010 21:16 xJaCEx wrote:
Oh there was something I wanted to bring up and I think this might be a good thread to do it. In the current map pool or at least almost every map iv seen so far every base comes with a tight ramp. I wish there was like one map at least that did not have a ramp with a ledge that you can gank units on as they are attacking. Anyhow mby it's not that big of an issue but I really think the map pool could use some work. I brought this up because it seems to me the maps favor tanks more then they do zerglings ya know.

On August 10 2010 21:16 xJaCEx wrote:
Oh there was something I wanted to bring up and I think this might be a good thread to do it. In the current map pool or at least almost every map iv seen so far every base comes with a tight ramp. I wish there was like one map at least that did not have a ramp with a ledge that you can gank units on as they are attacking. Anyhow mby it's not that big of an issue but I really think the map pool could use some work. I brought this up because it seems to me the maps favor tanks more then they do zerglings ya know.

On August 10 2010 21:01 ooni wrote:
My Opinion Why Zerg isn't the weakest Race using statistics
Just look at the statistics
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
56.17% (212,622) 56.50% (880,884) 56.82% (705,525) 56.32% (595,742)
Look zerg win ratio is 0.2% lower than Protoss. I mean it must be the weakest. Whole 0.2%!
0.2%! I can definately tell the difference win and losing when it's 0.2%!
That's the statistics for Zergs in Diamond league, top 1000 in fact. I reckon -+1% error give or take.

Wait maybe Zerg is weaker at lower level of play.
At Silver level:
49.74% (254,037) 49.38% (1,257,351) 49.41% (1,056,340) 49.44% (719,253)
Okay... Nope just nope.

I will believe Zerg is the weakest race when the statistics says so. Not just Zerg players' subjective view.

On August 10 2010 21:13 btlyger wrote:
Its funny how much of a 180 Zerg has "taken" since beta.

On beta it was always people crying about zerg being overpowered. Nerf broodlords, nerf queen larvae inject, nerf roaches to the ground! Now that its live, people are freaking out saying that Zerg can't beat the almighty terrans!

Personally, I don't think much has changed. Sure tanks are a bit stronger and roaches are a bit weaker, but overall its not DRASTICALLY different. Strategies just evolve with time, all it's going to take is one zerg player finding out an awesome build order that terran mech can't stop before people start saying Zerg is OP again.

TLDR; Zerg isn't underpowered, Terran isn't overpowered, and still no one is talking about protoss. Except void rays, screw those things.

On August 10 2010 21:24 floor exercise wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Do you people who constantly try to use these numbers understand those aren't win statistics of races, but of the players who are identified as choosing that race more than another?

There aren't actually any win rates for races available to us. All those players have to do to qualify as a protoss, terran or zerg player is choose one race one game more than they've chosen the others. That's it. No one is locked into a race, it is presumptuous to think no player has ever experimented with more than one race. Those numbers prove nothing, and you should feel bad for using them

Your numbers are flawed, the most accurate numbers we'd have is the win rates of races in the various tournaments and qualifiers. It would be a small sample but also the most relevant sample, as they are typically high level players. We don't even really have to do that to show the pure terran dominance of almost every tournament since phase 2, but if someone actually went through the brackets of all these tournaments, I'd imagine you'd have at least 1000 games played. It would be a fun experiement.