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United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2010 18:57 ghettohobbit2 wrote:
I may be crying over spilt milk here, but I honestly think that just making spawn larvae autocast would remove about 93% of Zerg tears over things like unstoppable unit compositions, 2 supply roaches, few ways to deal with early pressure, and just about everything else we complain about.
Even if this were a satisfactory solution, it would be much better to give MULE and Chrono Boost cooldowns, and make them punish Terran/Protoss just as hard for missing them.
It's much better if every race is hard than if every race is easy.
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imo the one thing that would help zerg feel more dynamic is reduce the HUGE viability difference of hydras on/off creep, like seriously that shit is stupid
would help zerg ground army feel less contained to the base and toss and terran (in particular terran perhaps) would feel a lot less secure being able to throw reckless attacks against hydra armies with little(or no) fear of being outmaneuvered or counterattacked before being able to rebuild siege D
edit: maybe make it a hydra den upgrade to have hydras move like un-upgraded roaches off creep or something
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On August 10 2010 19:26 Jameser wrote:
imo the one thing that would help zerg feel more dynamic is reduce the HUGE viability difference of hydras on/off creep, like seriously that shit is stupid
would help zerg ground army feel less contained to the base and toss and terran (in particular terran perhaps) would feel a lot less secure being able to throw reckless attacks against hydra armies with little(or no) fear of being outmaneuvered or counterattacked before being able to rebuild siege D
edit: maybe make it a hydra den upgrade to have hydras move like un-upgraded roaches off creep or something
Spread yer creep! Expanding your creep is just as much a part of a well played zerg as anything else, and the opponent should have to spend time pushing it back.
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On August 10 2010 19:31 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 19:26 Jameser wrote:
imo the one thing that would help zerg feel more dynamic is reduce the HUGE viability difference of hydras on/off creep, like seriously that shit is stupid
would help zerg ground army feel less contained to the base and toss and terran (in particular terran perhaps) would feel a lot less secure being able to throw reckless attacks against hydra armies with little(or no) fear of being outmaneuvered or counterattacked before being able to rebuild siege D
edit: maybe make it a hydra den upgrade to have hydras move like un-upgraded roaches off creep or something Spread yer creep! Expanding your creep is just as much a part of a well played zerg as anything else, and the opponent should have to spend time pushing it back.
lol obviously you spread the creep but there's no way you can spread it all the way to their base unless you're playing a bronze-league wow-playing 13-year-old
edit: also spreading creep is a slow process no matter how many tumors you use, which makes for a slow (and boring) game rythm (IF you COULD spread it past half the map) another possible fix is increase the range that tumors can jump per turn so you could blitzkrieg out using 2 overlords instead of having to make a HUGE investment (in both risk and time) into littering the whole way with overlords
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Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.
As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats.
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On August 10 2010 19:31 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 19:26 Jameser wrote:
imo the one thing that would help zerg feel more dynamic is reduce the HUGE viability difference of hydras on/off creep, like seriously that shit is stupid
would help zerg ground army feel less contained to the base and toss and terran (in particular terran perhaps) would feel a lot less secure being able to throw reckless attacks against hydra armies with little(or no) fear of being outmaneuvered or counterattacked before being able to rebuild siege D
edit: maybe make it a hydra den upgrade to have hydras move like un-upgraded roaches off creep or something Spread yer creep! Expanding your creep is just as much a part of a well played zerg as anything else, and the opponent should have to spend time pushing it back.
He means that it's basically impossible to push early with hydra or pressure unless you on a small map. Expanding creep is only a solution in mid-late game. It's also really hard to pressure if you go roaches since they suck off creep pre speed. Thus the only viable early game pressure is speedlings. Kinda strange.
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On August 10 2010 19:42 Yuka wrote:
Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.
As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats.
I think you have it backwards, zerg playerbase is small because it's a weak race to play (unattractive),zerg's not weak because it has a small playerbase...
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United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2010 16:51 Havenomind wrote:
comparing capabilities of both races, terran mule allows for between 5-7 more marines per usage with no decrease in build time while spawn larva allows for 8 more zerglings with a decrease in build time by way of simultaneous build. looking at it this way you would think it is roughly balanced only if macro is utilized near perfectly.
This is overvaluing the MULE. For one, the MULE takes 2 SCV build cycles to make, and has the mining of 3 SCVs (meaning that it's only a net gain of 1 SCV's mining).
If you MULE every time, the MULE amounts to the value having built 1 SCV with no build time. Comparatively, the Queen gives you the larva production of another hatchery, without having to spend a Drone to make it. They both net you 1 worker's worth of mining, but the Queen also saves you 150 minerals, since a Hatchery costs 300 minerals in comparison to the 150 for a Queen.
The obvious problem of course, is that the MULE outvalues the hatchery the moment you miss one Spawn Larva cycle. Again, putting MULE on a cooldown fixes this issue.
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Why do people keep comparing the power of mule/larva/chronoboost? Those ability are not equivalent.
The only way you could compare them is their utilization, because those ability add macro management.
Seriously, it's like posting about creep vs supply depot.
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On August 10 2010 19:45 Jameser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 19:42 Yuka wrote:
Isn't the more obvious reason that zerg 'seems weak' simply tied to the fact that its player base is currently small? In SC2's current state, zerg is the only race which the player never gets to play in campaign so it should be no surprise that the vast majority of SC2 multiplayer attempts are with/against terran and protoss players.
As SC2 matures, more players will try zerg out and the player base will expand ~ THEN we can consider using "the number of zerg players at the top/lower divisions" and other such nonsense stats. I think you have it backwards, zerg playerbase is small because it's a weak race to play (unattractive),zerg's not weak because it has a small playerbase...
No, sorry, you have it wrong.. The game is too young. Hell, there will be two more expansions, its impossible to compare player base so fast after release, seriously, think about it..
Also, not only BW players are switching to SC2, so for a lot of people it takes time to understeand Zerg race, all that Larva management, etc.. You cant just make statements like this without any backing..
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Im in a 11 win streak, im a P player and 10 of the games were Z, i really think thy need to buff zerg
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On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:
No, sorry, you have it wrong.. The game is too young. Hell, there will be two more expansions, its impossible to compare player base so fast after release, seriously, think about it..
I agree with the fact that the game is too young.
But i'm not sure the other guy will agree with "hey your race is not weak because of the future expansions" 
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On August 10 2010 20:11 HubertFelix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 20:08 Everlong wrote:
No, sorry, you have it wrong.. The game is too young. Hell, there will be two more expansions, its impossible to compare player base so fast after release, seriously, think about it.. I agree with the fact that the game is too young. But i'm not sure the other guy will agree with "hey your race is not weak because of the future expansions"
This is just to document, how young it is, not to adress race balance based on how many expansion a game has.
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to put this straight up -
the game was not complete upon its release. Terran was worked on and worked on very well. Protoss was also developed with a goal in mind. However for Zerg, the race is definitely incomplete. There are glaring unsynergistic aspects that really need to be addressed. No zerg units really 'meld' well together. Thats why the race is weak. We really have 'muddy' counters to all units where as the other races have really clear cut counters. The race is also VERY reactionary. You must scout at all times and playing in the dark is not an option. The Terran will usually set the pace of the match with their opener and all zerg can do is prepare and fend it off.
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On August 10 2010 15:16 IndecisivePenguin wrote:
Slight differences like these do not significantly contribute to a weakness in the Zerg race. It's actually a very characteristic quality of the Zerg race. StarCraft was never designed to be three races that play exactly the same with different skins. Each race has its own cons; it is up to the player to overcome these cons and to take advantage of those of the enemy.
Zerg is a more difficult race to play at lower levels, I think most can agree with that. Larva management plays a huge role, and Zerg is possibly the most mechanically demanding race out of the three. However, Zerg is a race with plenty of options and significantly greater mobility than that of the other races. StarCraft 2 is still in a very young state. Although we have discovered what we believe to be very solid, universal strategies, this may not even be the case a few months from now. The game will evolve, and the dominance will shift.
This pretty much sums up all I wanted to say.
The more the game evolves - which it did a lot during beta in a comparable short period of time - the more demanding it gets to crisp out larva timings when Protoss/Terran base well timed builds on MULE/Chrone actions. Zerg is not "out of the box" so it takes a while to get the whole point.
I lately observed a lot of new players coming from completely other games and during laddering they never got to the point where the "swarm-effect" kicks in. Once the eye-opener occured that in fact Zerg is macro-heavy (larva and expo wise) and they can chew out a 200/200 army within seconds while being all over the map - they became way better players. Tough I doubt you dont get to this point while only laddering and this is the point the "privacy" of b.net 2.0 kicks in. I highly recommend to seek the community to all the zerg players by for instance joining tl.net ventrilo or another team.
just my 2 cents
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the "supply cap hurts zerg" argument is redundant for two reasons.
1. larva stacking. to match that as a terran you'd need about 40 factory/barrack/starports.
2. the balance is very nearly right at this time. don't you think it would be just a little bit of overkill if zerg can suddenly get double the number of roaches etc?
the real reason why zerg players feel weak is because you need to be dynamic. most zerg players stick to the tried and tested WEAK strategies. for example automatically going speedling even if the opponent has opened with mass hellion or another build which would be extremely vulnerable to fast roach/baneling.
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On August 10 2010 19:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 16:51 Havenomind wrote:
comparing capabilities of both races, terran mule allows for between 5-7 more marines per usage with no decrease in build time while spawn larva allows for 8 more zerglings with a decrease in build time by way of simultaneous build. looking at it this way you would think it is roughly balanced only if macro is utilized near perfectly. This is overvaluing the MULE. For one, the MULE takes 2 SCV build cycles to make, and has the mining of 3 SCVs (meaning that it's only a net gain of 1 SCV's mining). If you MULE every time, the MULE amounts to the value having built 1 SCV with no build time. Comparatively, the Queen gives you the larva production of another hatchery, without having to spend a Drone to make it. They both net you 1 worker's worth of mining, but the Queen also saves you 150 minerals, since a Hatchery costs 300 minerals in comparison to the 150 for a Queen. The obvious problem of course, is that the MULE outvalues the hatchery the moment you miss one Spawn Larva cycle. Again, putting MULE on a cooldown fixes this issue.
Except you can also mine off an extra hatch and every hatch you put down needs a queen.
Set Max energy on command centers/nexus to 75 and problem is solved.
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On August 10 2010 20:29 Luckbox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 19:46 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2010 16:51 Havenomind wrote:
comparing capabilities of both races, terran mule allows for between 5-7 more marines per usage with no decrease in build time while spawn larva allows for 8 more zerglings with a decrease in build time by way of simultaneous build. looking at it this way you would think it is roughly balanced only if macro is utilized near perfectly. This is overvaluing the MULE. For one, the MULE takes 2 SCV build cycles to make, and has the mining of 3 SCVs (meaning that it's only a net gain of 1 SCV's mining). If you MULE every time, the MULE amounts to the value having built 1 SCV with no build time. Comparatively, the Queen gives you the larva production of another hatchery, without having to spend a Drone to make it. They both net you 1 worker's worth of mining, but the Queen also saves you 150 minerals, since a Hatchery costs 300 minerals in comparison to the 150 for a Queen. The obvious problem of course, is that the MULE outvalues the hatchery the moment you miss one Spawn Larva cycle. Again, putting MULE on a cooldown fixes this issue. Except you can also mine off an extra hatch and every hatch you put down needs a queen. Set Max energy on command centers/nexus to 75 and problem is solved.
use burrow and he can't mule because he needs scan, problem solved.
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On August 10 2010 20:34 tarsier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 20:29 Luckbox wrote:On August 10 2010 19:46 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2010 16:51 Havenomind wrote:
comparing capabilities of both races, terran mule allows for between 5-7 more marines per usage with no decrease in build time while spawn larva allows for 8 more zerglings with a decrease in build time by way of simultaneous build. looking at it this way you would think it is roughly balanced only if macro is utilized near perfectly. This is overvaluing the MULE. For one, the MULE takes 2 SCV build cycles to make, and has the mining of 3 SCVs (meaning that it's only a net gain of 1 SCV's mining). If you MULE every time, the MULE amounts to the value having built 1 SCV with no build time. Comparatively, the Queen gives you the larva production of another hatchery, without having to spend a Drone to make it. They both net you 1 worker's worth of mining, but the Queen also saves you 150 minerals, since a Hatchery costs 300 minerals in comparison to the 150 for a Queen. The obvious problem of course, is that the MULE outvalues the hatchery the moment you miss one Spawn Larva cycle. Again, putting MULE on a cooldown fixes this issue. Except you can also mine off an extra hatch and every hatch you put down needs a queen. Set Max energy on command centers/nexus to 75 and problem is solved. use burrow and he can't mule because he needs scan, problem solved.
Make Raven and you can Mule, problem solved.
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1 mule returns 7 times the minerals, how is that the value of 3 scvs?
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EPT
