EPT[D] The lack of Zerg bonus damage: - Page 6
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
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spancho
United States161 Posts
That is besides the point that if a unit does all the dmg it needs in order for it to be balanced, there is no need for it to instead do less dmg, but with bonus dmg too. | ||
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silencesc
United States464 Posts
Zerg is not UP, 5 of the top ten players are zerg right now, if you can't beat mech, then practice, and stop coming here and whining about everything. I swear, every third thread nowadays is about ZvT: ATTENTION ZERG PLAYERS: MEET A TERRAN FRIEND AND PRACTIVE AGAINST MECH. I'm tired of these PMSey rants, it's gone on long enough. I'm sorry to have be the one who tells you this. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2010 01:42 yeti wrote: Bonuses add diversity not power. Also if you look at BroodWar the Zerg had few (hydra & devourer) concussive/explosive attacks (which is like the same thing as bonuses) compare that to Terran which had Vultures, Firebats, Tanks, Ghosts, wraiths, Goliaths, Valkyries, who all had some kind of explosive/concussive (bonus) damage. 2 v 7? That is even worse than SCII 3v6. Yet it was balanced. This. You could make all the units do normal damage, and you could balance it just fine. It would just be boring. On August 06 2010 04:25 Spyridon wrote: It seems people are ignoring the damage charts that were linked, and asking "whats the problem?". Look at the charts, and you will see that WITHOUT the bonuses considered, Terran has higher power per resource value, and higher power per population, across the board. When you consider the bonuses, it's just rediculous. Do the math. Lings are the only unit that is valuable in the 2 areas mentioned, and they are not too viable vs a full Terran army composition do to their huge range, tanks, and how fast stimmed bio mows them down before they reach them. A Roach only has 40% of the potential of an UNSTIMMED marine per population. Sure, you can make another wave of them, but are you going to be able to make 2.5 waves to the Terrans 1? No.... It doesnt work like that. Hydras only have 70% of the potential of an unstimmed Marine. STIMMED marines are equivalent to nearly 3 Hydras. We sink in MANY more resources just to have an army that is not possibly equialent even with higher population than Terran. Marines, Reapers, Marauders, and Thors are ALL more valuable per resource value AND supply/population value than all Zerg units aside from Lings - which already mentioned could not even get close to mixed armies at the mid to late game. That's not even factoring how devestating Tanks can be. The only way for a varied Zerg army to be equivalent in terms of power is to have 2.5-3 times as many units, which is just not possible. Typically if you pull ahead on economy you will still be at most a few dozen ahead on population. So it makes the argument of "Well Zerg can jsut make another wave after they die" a bad one. It's not possible to make 3 full attack waves of units before they get in to your base, and that's what they need to do to defeat Terrans units WITHOUT their attack bonuses. Just think how bad the situation is if you start considering their attack bonuses, and the fact that they can also keep producing units to back up their army while you remake each wave? On the claims of "bonus damage being a selective nerf" - This is only true if their damage is comparable without having bonus damage. When Stim Marines do 20.9 focus fire damage per mineral value, Marauders on NON ARMORED TARGETS do 10.6, and Hydras only do 9, how is that a selective nerf? The truth is, it's a selective BUFF because Mara even do more focus damage against light targets. Even if zerg has relatively poor damage, this means zerg needs an across-the-board damage buff. It doesn't mean you need to start giving them bonus damage. You can achieve balance without sacrificing unit diversity. | ||
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cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
On August 06 2010 05:40 koOma wrote: these threads are so dumb, might aswell start one complaining how imba it is that apples are bigger than peaches. Apples are imbalanced. Nerf Apples. | ||
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
On August 06 2010 01:22 JaspluR wrote: doesnt make much of a difference each race is different zerg can tech switch so fast i dont see why youre complaining eg zerg mass hydras, toss goes chargelot colossus, zerg masses corrupters, gg toss cant get enough stalkers out in time toss can complain about having shit anti air but ill leave that to another day your argument doesnt even make sense. zealot/collosus -> stalker isnt something hard to pull. you have warpgates that instantly warp in units????? corruptors also cant even attack ground so i dont know why this is an issue. sounds like you just have problems with scouting to me. | ||
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Monokeros
United States2493 Posts
On August 05 2010 04:05 Saracen wrote: I'm a Zerg player and even I'm getting sick of these Zerg UP, Terran OP threads... Thanks for the info, though, OP. Haha two acronyms with the same letters but different meanings! Also, my experinece with zerg is that I have so many units the bonus damage really doesn't matter. The idea I always enjoy is keeping the enemy scared and in their base while you eco/tech as hard as possible, when they come out they're faced with a well-fed zerg army, with all the right tools to fight with. | ||
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SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
Also if you look at BroodWar the Zerg had few (hydra & devourer) concussive/explosive attacks (which is like the same thing as bonuses) An excellent point showing that even if the numbers arnt all the same the game can be balanced. Like who really wants a game that is all the same anyway?compare that to Terran which had Vultures, Firebats, Tanks, Ghosts, wraiths, Goliaths, Valkyries, who all had some kind of explosive/concussive (bonus) damage. 2 v 7? That is even worse than SCII 3v6. Yet it was balanced. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Imagine for a moment for example that sieged tanks did 30 (+30 armored) damage instead of doing 50 damage per shot. Would that be good for terran? Not at all, having bonus damage there would be really bad. If marauders did 15 damage instead of 10(+10), then what? They would be a little less efficient against buildings, and roaches, but would kill workers, lings, queens, and hydras 50% faster. What if hydras did 8(+8 light) instead of just doing 12? Would that be a super awesome zerg buff? lol | ||
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MICHELLE
Korea (South)199 Posts
On August 06 2010 07:33 silencesc wrote: OK, I think we need to have an intervention here: Zerg are not UP, terran are not OP. People, please. There hasn't even been a second patch, the game has barely been out a week, and everyones complaining, if you think zerg is bad, switch races. NO one is making you play the icky bugs, and if you're complaining because you want ridiculous buffs, then you're just whining because you're bad. Zerg is not UP, 5 of the top ten players are zerg right now, if you can't beat mech, then practice, and stop coming here and whining about everything. I swear, every third thread nowadays is about ZvT: ATTENTION ZERG PLAYERS: MEET A TERRAN FRIEND AND PRACTIVE AGAINST MECH. I'm tired of these PMSey rants, it's gone on long enough. I'm sorry to have be the one who tells you this. You clearly have no clue of what you are talking about. I am seriously speechless. | ||
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muta_micro
United States183 Posts
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silencesc
United States464 Posts
On August 06 2010 08:31 MICHELLE wrote: You clearly have no clue of what you are talking about. I am seriously speechless. Now I'm confused. Why am I clueless? Literally every other thread now is OMG OMG ZERG SUCKS NERF TERRAN. It's obnoxious, and people need to stop and suck it up. | ||
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Scroatal
Australia6 Posts
Zergling speed - Yes. Zergling attack - Yes Roach speed - Yes Roach move while borrowed - Yes Ability to remove all damage unless a detector is around - Yes | ||
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djdubshift
United States4 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On August 06 2010 07:43 TheYango wrote: This. You could make all the units do normal damage, and you could balance it just fine. It would just be boring. Even if zerg has relatively poor damage, this means zerg needs an across-the-board damage buff. It doesn't mean you need to start giving them bonus damage. You can achieve balance without sacrificing unit diversity. My only point was that saying it's a "bonus" is not neccessarily true, especially if the damage is sub par without even including the bonuses. That said, it may not even be the damage that needs a nerf, as the only match with issues is ZvT for the most part, and only with certain unit mix's. Damage buff across the board would mess up the balance, the dynamics from ZvT likely need to change though, and it's fairly agreed upon even by top Zerg players. The way the units match up makes ZvT far more difficult than any other match up - the mix of needing to utilize every unit type to counter a few, several more key timing vulnerabilities, lack of upgradability, and just the clash of dynamics (Zerg being based upon having weaker units with less power but larger numbers, going against Terran which is designed to be insanely mineral and population efficient with extraordinary range and incredible AoE damage - this means Zerg get mowed down before even doing the damage needed to the redicuously efficient army) This could be fixed in many ways - be it damage tweaks, spell ability tweaks, even a new or moved upgrades. I'll leave it up to Blizzard to figure out how. Fact of the matter is, you will be hard-pressed to find a decently ranked Zerg player that is skilled in each match up, that will not openly admit that Terran is by far more difficult than the other match ups. That's not to mention the silliness of ZvZ, but take in to consideration that even though ZvZ is completely retarded at times, it's nowhere near as painful as ZvT. That should say something. On August 06 2010 08:37 silencesc wrote: Now I'm confused. Why am I clueless? Literally every other thread now is OMG OMG ZERG SUCKS NERF TERRAN. It's obnoxious, and people need to stop and suck it up. As just mentioned... in balance would mean the racial match-ups are at least somewhat balanced. If its pretty much unanimously agreed by even Pros that ZvT is redicuously harder than the other matches... how could you say there is not a problem? | ||
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IndecisivePenguin
United States771 Posts
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GiantEnemyCrab
Canada503 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On August 06 2010 11:22 IndecisivePenguin wrote: I'm actually getting scared that we're going to lose race-gameplay diversity because everyone wants what the other people have.. I dont think anyone here wants what other people have. All people want is the 3 racial match-ups to feel somewhat balanced, and it's plain as day by the polls that exist and the amount of topics such as this that ZvT is by far the one that needs to be addressed most. | ||
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Grimjim
United States395 Posts
If everything is so balanced and honky-dory, why are you all so keen on trying to prove that? If it's balanced, Blizzard won't do anything. | ||
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