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Remember that Zerg units make up for it by having a consistently high DPS. So instead of having units that are superpowerful vs some things and much less so vs others, the units are moderately powerful vs everything. Of course, zerg units are very fragile and that good DPS doesn't do much good against the siege tanks firing from halfway across the map.
The real problem doesn't lie with bonuses. You don't need one massive overhaul to unit damage output to balance terran.
As much as terran annoys me sometime, it doesn't need a massive overhaul to be fixed.
The way to perfectly balance terran is MINDBLOWINGLY SIMPLE. make tank shots projectile, not hitscan. Siege tanks are powerful because they are hitscan. Because the engine allows only one unit to attack at a time (though on very short time intervals) and the siege tanks hit immediately, it gives the illusion of super-intelligent AI that smart target. In reality one siege tank fires and hits in the same intant, the next fires, and then when the target is killed, they move on to the next because they can't attack nothing. However, if the projectile doesn't hit by the time it's the next one's turn to fire, they can overkill. So making the shots projectiles; very fast, very near but not entirely immediate projectiles. That will make it so that siege tanks can overkill, but not so much that mech becomes useless. With a couple of tanks firing useless shots every volley, mech will be much more survivable but still potent enough to keep terran winning 50% of their games, which Blizzard interprets to mean balance.
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zerg damage is so high its fair too say they do bonus damage too everything
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The difference is that while the other races use their units that are strong vs Zergs, for the most part Zerg is based around avoiding the enemies strengths.
We are reactionary, whether we like it or not.
BTW - to everyone claiming that Zergs DPS is so high they dont need bonuses, please check this chart - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=115345
In equal resource values, not including the bonuses, Terran beats is in nearly all areas. That's not even considering stim upgrades. Or the fact that Tanks do more dmg than every unit except Ultras, and it's huge ranged aoe. BC and Thors are easily the strongest in the game WITHOUT the bonuses.
So no... Zerg really is not "such huge DPS without the bonuses". Terran is. But they get bonuses too.
Protoss get huge health but mediocre DPS, and they are the ones that really rely on bonuses. Terrans in general are the most efficient across the board for their value.
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I think the lack of bonus damage suits the Zerg style of outnumbering and overpowering the enemy with swarms of units. Terran/Protoss have more niched and powerful units, but are less mobile/flexible. If there is balance issues I think other things should be adjusted.
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You can spin this bonus damage thing any way you want - it really means nothing. For instance:
Definitely Zerg is OP in TvZ because so many of their units always deal full damage, and so many terran units can't deal full damage all the time.
Zerglings - Nope
Baneling - Yes! They do so little damage to armored units.
Roach - Nope
Hydralisk - Nope
Mutalisk - Nope
Queen - Nope
Corrupter - Yes! They only deal full damage to BCs.
Brood Lord - Nope
Ultralisk - Yes! They do so little damage to light units.
So, 3/9, (fixed) and I didn't count the Infestor because it has no attack.
Marine - Nay
Marauder - Yes, it can barely damage light units - it does less DPS than marines to light units!
Siege Tank - When unsieged, yes, it sucks against light.
Reaper - Yes, they are useless against armored units.
Hellions - Yes, and even if they get their main damage upgrade, they still can barely damage armored.
Ghost - Yes - have you ever tried to kill a roach with its regular attack? Roach is so OP.
Viking - Yes, they don't even do full damage to mutalisks - they're so useless.
Banshee - Nay
Battlecruiser - Nay
Thor - OMG its supposed to be a strong AA, but its splash can hardly hurt armored air.
So, for Terran we have 6/10. Wow, that's over HALF, and two times the amount of Zerg. In particular against air, you have to get factory and starport tech to combat just spire tech. OMG terran is so UP.
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so... you're sad that not all the races are the same?
stop your whining... it's stupid.
the zerg are supposed to just macro up a bunch of shit, and win with it. I agree that zerg should have a few more units to work with, but this thread is stupid.
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On August 05 2010 04:21 peachsncream wrote:
lol @ all the terran players getting upset over this
yeah man, you realize that 90% of the posters in "zvt z is unbalanced" threads are terrans? look at the first 5 or so posts.
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On August 05 2010 04:28 JinNJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:19 Philip2110 wrote:
Pretty sure lack of bonus damage has nothing to do with balance of the game
This, whats your point OP I think OP's point is that if you take an equal supply of some zerg unit, you can find some equal supply of terran units that will rape its face off.
The entire point of the zerg is to not have equal supply, even when you reach 200/200 you should be able to restock faster and thus end up with higher supply
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On August 05 2010 06:04 decemvrie wrote:
thors do more damage to light units anti air. Yes. OP, please update - Thor HAS bonus damage. (the irony is that a top zerg player knows best about terran units)
Now, I don't think this is a problem for zerg. I'd give away any bonuses if you buff the units properly, for example. Fewer bonuses within a race is GOOD for the race, it means it's more flexible. Zerg is the most flexible race. Terran is the most inflexible race with the largest tech-tree. Terrans can execute a great number of build orders and achieve various unit compositions, but they better choose them wisely (and scout well), because once taking some direction they can't switch easily, and the chosen units aren't as multi-functional as with other races.
That said, lol @ a bunch of terrans keep telling zerg how to play. I suggest them to become zerg and pwn along, if they so appreciate and understand the race.
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On August 05 2010 06:31 tfmdjeff wrote: The way to perfectly balance terran is MINDBLOWINGLY SIMPLE. make tank shots projectile, not hitscan. Siege tanks are powerful because they are hitscan. Because the engine allows only one unit to attack at a time (though on very short time intervals) and the siege tanks hit immediately, it gives the illusion of super-intelligent AI that smart target. In reality one siege tank fires and hits in the same intant, the next fires, and then when the target is killed, they move on to the next because they can't attack nothing. However, if the projectile doesn't hit by the time it's the next one's turn to fire, they can overkill. So making the shots projectiles; very fast, very near but not entirely immediate projectiles. That will make it so that siege tanks can overkill, but not so much that mech becomes useless. With a couple of tanks firing useless shots every volley, mech will be much more survivable but still potent enough to keep terran winning 50% of their games, which Blizzard interprets to mean balance. I'd actually like this change, since it might add another layer to TvT -- the raven's PDD would now work on tank projectiles too if this change were made.
I think if tanks fired projectiles (and thus could overkill), Zergs who 1a2a3a'ed their army into a tank line would still lose, but smart Zergs would be able to micro their way through it with skill (a good thing).
Also, keep in mind that siege tanks fire much faster than their counterparts in BW did -- I don't think that making tanks "dumber" would necessarily make Terrans underpowered (as probably many Terran players would fear, though in the early beta when nobody used tanks, Terrans still weren't pushovers either...).
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:23 Toxigen wrote:
I'd actually like this change, since it might add another layer to TvT -- the raven's PDD would now work on tank projectiles too if this change were made.
I think if tanks fired projectiles (and thus could overkill), Zergs who 1a2a3a'ed their army into a tank line would still lose, but smart Zergs would be able to micro their way through it with skill (a good thing).
Also, keep in mind that siege tanks fire much faster than their counterparts in BW did -- I don't think that making tanks "dumber" would necessarily make Terrans underpowered (as probably many Terran players would fear, though in the early beta when nobody used tanks, Terrans still weren't pushovers either...).
It would also make dodging tank fire possible through blink or transport micro like in SC1. Which is always cool.
And strictly speaking, the disadvantages of overkill are reduced if a player spreads and staggers his tanks. Overall, it would just promote better play--seeing as in its current state, sloppily sieging tanks in a ball doesn't punish Terran as hard as it should.
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On August 05 2010 03:52 Grimjim wrote:
Marauder - Yes, and it doubles its damage.
Dear sir or madame,
Two marines do more damage to an armored target than one marauder. Two marines do twice as much damage to a non armored target than one marauder. I would hardly call the marauder damage bonus a "bonus." It is really just a penalty to shooting anything that is not armored.
Arbitrarily giving each race the same amount of ______ (in this case damage specialists) does not a balanced game make.
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I do think zerg needs something but bonus damage is definitely not it, perhaps a specialized anti armor tier two unit? or maybe an increase in supply cap...
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On August 05 2010 03:52 Grimjim wrote:
Greetings. Long time Zerg player, Diamond, blah blah blah.
Let's get the nasty stuff out of the way first: ZvT sucks. Zerg has paltry options compared to Terran, they cannot attack consistently until lategame, they are harassed to no end, etc. Maybe the problem lies with the units?
As we all know, Starcraft ll has the bonus damage system. Let's observe which units Zerg have that deal bonus damage, and which ones Terran have.
Zerglings - Nope
Baneling - Yes! The only unit before Tier 2 that does!
Roach - Nope
Hydralisk - Nope
Mutalisk - Nope
Queen - Nope
Corrupter - Yes! SUCCESS! It only took 2 bases and 12 minutes to get to a solely AA unit! Oh wait, but it's only vs. Massive.
Brood Lord - Nope
Ultralisk - Yes! Vs. Armored too!
So, 3/9, (fixed) and I didn't count the Infestor because it has no attack.
Marine - Nay
Marauder - Yes, and it doubles its damage.
Siege Tank - When unsieged, yes, and it attacks incredibly quickly.
Reaper - Yes, vs Light AND vs. Buildings
Hellions - Yes, and with an upgrade, deal insane amounts of damage to Light.
Ghost - Yes, and has an ability that will deal massive amounts of damage to any unit for only 25 energy.
Viking - Yes, but only in the air.
Banshee - Nay
Battlecruiser - Nay
Thor - Nay, and thankfully too. It doesn't even need it.
So, for Terran we have 6/10. Wow, that's over HALF, and three times the amount of Zerg. Also, every single unit that does have bonus damage can attack ground in some way.
Just for fun, let's do Protoss too:
Zealot - Nay
Stalker - Yes, vs. armored.
Sentry - Nay
Immortal - Yes, and it more than doubles its damage.
Pheonix - Yes
Void Ray - Yes
Carrier - Nay
Collosus - Nay
Dark Templar - Nay
Mothership - Nay
4/10 That's not bad, for its only a little higher than the units Zerg has, and three of those can attack ground armies. But thankfully this only factors into PvZ the right amount, as that matchup is very close to balanced and fun to play.
Maybe the reason Zerg has such awful early and mid-game defense is because every unit they have can be countered by a Tier 1 or Tier 2 unit from both of the other races, while providing only one unit that can counter back, and only against light units. Hell, the only + armored unit they have is Tier 3, and getting a decent number out is half the battle in itself.
Discuss.
Bonus dmg has nothing to do with game balance all zerg bous dmg is toss in as normal dmg due to the fact you have very few units and are the massing race. Giving them bonus dmg would just hurt zerg not help cause you would need to take away the normal dmg to add to armor or light or w/e.
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On August 05 2010 09:44 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:52 Grimjim wrote:
Greetings. Long time Zerg player, Diamond, blah blah blah.
Let's get the nasty stuff out of the way first: ZvT sucks. Zerg has paltry options compared to Terran, they cannot attack consistently until lategame, they are harassed to no end, etc. Maybe the problem lies with the units?
As we all know, Starcraft ll has the bonus damage system. Let's observe which units Zerg have that deal bonus damage, and which ones Terran have.
Zerglings - Nope
Baneling - Yes! The only unit before Tier 2 that does!
Roach - Nope
Hydralisk - Nope
Mutalisk - Nope
Queen - Nope
Corrupter - Yes! SUCCESS! It only took 2 bases and 12 minutes to get to a solely AA unit! Oh wait, but it's only vs. Massive.
Brood Lord - Nope
Ultralisk - Yes! Vs. Armored too!
So, 3/9, (fixed) and I didn't count the Infestor because it has no attack.
Marine - Nay
Marauder - Yes, and it doubles its damage.
Siege Tank - When unsieged, yes, and it attacks incredibly quickly.
Reaper - Yes, vs Light AND vs. Buildings
Hellions - Yes, and with an upgrade, deal insane amounts of damage to Light.
Ghost - Yes, and has an ability that will deal massive amounts of damage to any unit for only 25 energy.
Viking - Yes, but only in the air.
Banshee - Nay
Battlecruiser - Nay
Thor - Nay, and thankfully too. It doesn't even need it.
So, for Terran we have 6/10. Wow, that's over HALF, and three times the amount of Zerg. Also, every single unit that does have bonus damage can attack ground in some way.
Just for fun, let's do Protoss too:
Zealot - Nay
Stalker - Yes, vs. armored.
Sentry - Nay
Immortal - Yes, and it more than doubles its damage.
Pheonix - Yes
Void Ray - Yes
Carrier - Nay
Collosus - Nay
Dark Templar - Nay
Mothership - Nay
4/10 That's not bad, for its only a little higher than the units Zerg has, and three of those can attack ground armies. But thankfully this only factors into PvZ the right amount, as that matchup is very close to balanced and fun to play.
Maybe the reason Zerg has such awful early and mid-game defense is because every unit they have can be countered by a Tier 1 or Tier 2 unit from both of the other races, while providing only one unit that can counter back, and only against light units. Hell, the only + armored unit they have is Tier 3, and getting a decent number out is half the battle in itself.
Discuss.
Bonus dmg has nothing to do with game balance all zerg bous dmg is toss in as normal dmg due to the fact you have very few units and are the massing race. Giving them bonus dmg would just hurt zerg not help cause you would need to take away the normal dmg to add to armor or light or w/e.
But look at the charts of dps per population value. How could Zerg be a "massing race" with literally no units aside from Zerglings that could be massed, and we have lower DPS per population AND lower DPS per resource value AND lower scaling with upgrades, than Terran?
Not even including the bonus damage, we need to out-mass them to only have a chance to cut even, not to have an advantage, while they have an advantage in efficiency (power per resource value), power per population, quicker late game tech, bonus damage on top of their efficiency, and higher scaling with upgrades, and Zerg has to put much more resources in to drones, has a much higher population of drones than the other races to cut even, and no real massable units aside from Lings.
That's the issue.
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If the point of Zerg is to sacrifice their 200/200 army and recreate another in seconds, how are they expected to GET to that point if they are rolled by a Terran ball of +bonus damage dealers 8 minutes into the game while they are trying to pump Drones to stay ON PAR with the Terran player late-game? Or while being harassed with Banshees, Hellions, Reapers, Tank drops, Thor drops?
It seems every Terran simply says "Get 200/200, and sacrifice into Terran army and recreate". Yeah, that's a really great idea. Now how the **** do I get that far?
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Mid-argument yesterday I decided to stop posting...just stepped back and read all the defensive Terran's. The nerf is coming. It's coming. And when it does, all the Terran's farming Zergs and other bad Terran players are gonig to drop a league. Their tears will blot out the sun.
There's really no point to any of these threads. For whatever reason, Terran players have convinced themselves that if they argue irrational points hard enough, things will reamin unchanged. I refuse to beleive there is a Diamond level Terran player who doesn't think the TvZ matchup is imbalanced. Thus, everything written by top Terran players just sounds unimaginably silly.
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I've been thinking lately that it'd sure be nice if zerglings got +1 and +1 vs armored per upgrade. That'd make them quite a bit more effective against marauders, stalkers, and thors, all of which they are supposed to counter. Been finding that lings vs thors is pretty poor especially.
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On August 05 2010 22:27 Graven wrote:
Mid-argument yesterday I decided to stop posting...just stepped back and read all the defensive Terran's. The nerf is coming. It's coming. And when it does, all the Terran's farming Zergs and other bad Terran players are gonig to drop a league. Their tears will blot out the sun.
There's really no point to any of these threads. For whatever reason, Terran players have convinced themselves that if they argue irrational points hard enough, things will reamin unchanged. I refuse to beleive there is a Diamond level Terran player who doesn't think the TvZ matchup is imbalanced. Thus, everything written by top Terran players just sounds unimaginably silly.
Really, this is the kind of shit that destroyed WoW. One class whines about so and so class and that class gets nerfed. The nerfed class keeps whining that their class is now underpowered and x class is OP. X class gets nerfed. The SC2 strategy and general forums on TL are slowly devolving into a Bnet forum like state with people constantly whining about this and that.
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On August 05 2010 04:32 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:19 Philip2110 wrote:
Pretty sure lack of bonus damage has nothing to do with balance of the game
This, whats your point OP Oh, lack of bonus damage has nothing to do with the balance? Then let's take it all out then. Let's see how that changes things. What a dumb argument. Do I really have to elaborate?
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