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Okay, nobody seems to be mentioning this.
The reason bonus damage is so helpful is not against units, it's against buildings!!!! It's much harder for zerg to bust a front of a base because there's no front-busters (bonus to armored or longer range) until tier 3 except the banelings which only have a very early window to be effective basically making baneling busts all-in.
I think it's one of those things that is really hard to understand from a balance point of view. What if I made probes do 3 damage instead of 5, I don't think it would effect win percentage all that much, but it would be imbalanced. I think imbalanced has become too synonymous with broken. I think strategies like mech and 4-gate push would be tougher to execute if zerg had more ways of applying early pressure. Right zerg early-pressure is too all-in.
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IMO, as Z you're not supposed to mass units and charge into the T ball.. you have to use other tactics.. its like fast guerilla warfare versus a slow, high tech army. Remember who won the vietnam war? 
Its pointless to argue about "this unit counters this unit" when the game isn't designed around units, but rather around playstyles.
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Regarding bonus damage it seems like this is kind of similar to brood war.
Terran units that got bonus damage, or rather damage penalties...
firebat, ghost, vulture, siege tank
Protoss
Dragoon... Corsair? Not sure about corsair.
Zerg:
afaik they have no penalties. Feel free to correct me.
My biggest complaint right now is that zerg hasn't come up with any early game pressure that's not an all-in push. It'd be cool if ventral sacs could be moved to hatchery tech. That'd open up a lot more options but would be pretty easy for any other race to counter.
Tanks also take way more skill to defeat than they do to use.. But oh well i can deal with that until they figure something out.
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If anything this makes zerg better
I don't really consider bonus damage to be bonus damage, but rather normal damage vs nerfed damage
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Isn't is a benefit that Zerg does not have bonus damage? Having bonus damage does not mean that you will do more damage, it just means that your damage will be something like 10+4 instead of 14. Without bonus damage, Zerg only has to focus on building units that the opponent do not have bonus damage against. Terran and Protoss have to build units that have the bonus damage vs enemy units while avoiding the enemy's bonus damage.
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I think of them more as damage penalties. If your Immortals, Marauders, Void Rays etc. are shooting Zerglings, they're pretty worthless. Whereas it doesn't make a damned bit of difference what Hydras are shooting at. They absolutely rape everything.
Its rather ingenious, because it means Zerg don't have to micro their army and can spend more time macro'ing. Protoss and Terran have to micro a ton more to get the most out of their army.
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doesnt make much of a difference each race is different
zerg can tech switch so fast i dont see why youre complaining
eg zerg mass hydras, toss goes chargelot colossus, zerg masses corrupters, gg toss cant get enough stalkers out in time
toss can complain about having shit anti air but ill leave that to another day
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Lol of course Zerg doesn't get that many specialist units. It's because all their units come from the same building. If it had such units the other races wouldn't be able to cope with the sudden tech switches.
Obvious stuff is obvious 
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Calgary25997 Posts
Ugh, everything doesn't have to be the same.......
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Bonuses add diversity not power.
Also if you look at BroodWar the Zerg had few (hydra & devourer) concussive/explosive attacks (which is like the same thing as bonuses)
compare that to Terran which had Vultures, Firebats, Tanks, Ghosts, wraiths, Goliaths, Valkyries, who all had some kind of explosive/concussive (bonus) damage.
2 v 7? That is even worse than SCII 3v6. Yet it was balanced.
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i would gladly give Protoss's bonus dmg for flat values :o
immortal from 20+30 to what? 35-40 to everything? any time!
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I don't get this complaining. Bonus damage is just a selective nerf. Just imagine if infernal preigniter modified normal damage instead of bonus. You would be complaining (and rightfully so) about that OP hellion needing to do less damage to everything. With the it added to bonus though they are manageable.
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On August 06 2010 02:15 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't get this complaining. Bonus damage is just a selective nerf. Just imagine if infernal preigniter modified normal damage instead of bonus. You would be complaining (and rightfully so) about that OP hellion needing to do less damage to everything. With the it added to bonus though they are manageable.
It seems people are ignoring the damage charts that were linked, and asking "whats the problem?".
Look at the charts, and you will see that WITHOUT the bonuses considered, Terran has higher power per resource value, and higher power per population, across the board. When you consider the bonuses, it's just rediculous.
Do the math. Lings are the only unit that is valuable in the 2 areas mentioned, and they are not too viable vs a full Terran army composition do to their huge range, tanks, and how fast stimmed bio mows them down before they reach them.
A Roach only has 40% of the potential of an UNSTIMMED marine per population. Sure, you can make another wave of them, but are you going to be able to make 2.5 waves to the Terrans 1? No.... It doesnt work like that. Hydras only have 70% of the potential of an unstimmed Marine. STIMMED marines are equivalent to nearly 3 Hydras.
We sink in MANY more resources just to have an army that is not possibly equialent even with higher population than Terran.
Marines, Reapers, Marauders, and Thors are ALL more valuable per resource value AND supply/population value than all Zerg units aside from Lings - which already mentioned could not even get close to mixed armies at the mid to late game. That's not even factoring how devestating Tanks can be.
The only way for a varied Zerg army to be equivalent in terms of power is to have 2.5-3 times as many units, which is just not possible. Typically if you pull ahead on economy you will still be at most a few dozen ahead on population.
So it makes the argument of "Well Zerg can jsut make another wave after they die" a bad one. It's not possible to make 3 full attack waves of units before they get in to your base, and that's what they need to do to defeat Terrans units WITHOUT their attack bonuses.
Just think how bad the situation is if you start considering their attack bonuses, and the fact that they can also keep producing units to back up their army while you remake each wave?
On the claims of "bonus damage being a selective nerf" - This is only true if their damage is comparable without having bonus damage. When Stim Marines do 20.9 focus fire damage per mineral value, Marauders on NON ARMORED TARGETS do 10.6, and Hydras only do 9, how is that a selective nerf? The truth is, it's a selective BUFF because Mara even do more focus damage against light targets.
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Well.. The whole "counter" thing is pretty annoying imo
in sc1 you can do any unit combination if you can just do it correctly..
sc2 u have to make the right unit combinations because of the whole +damage which is annoying because its so hard to scout terran.
feels like in sc1 the reduced damage was to balance it
and in sc2 its to extra damage to make it so unit combinations counter others, which already happens without the extra damage.
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Is it really zerg is lacking bonus damage or is everyone else lacking consistant damage?
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On August 05 2010 23:33 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 22:27 Graven wrote:
Mid-argument yesterday I decided to stop posting...just stepped back and read all the defensive Terran's. The nerf is coming. It's coming. And when it does, all the Terran's farming Zergs and other bad Terran players are gonig to drop a league. Their tears will blot out the sun.
There's really no point to any of these threads. For whatever reason, Terran players have convinced themselves that if they argue irrational points hard enough, things will reamin unchanged. I refuse to beleive there is a Diamond level Terran player who doesn't think the TvZ matchup is imbalanced. Thus, everything written by top Terran players just sounds unimaginably silly. Really, this is the kind of shit that destroyed WoW.
I stopped reading there. U mad?
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On August 06 2010 04:25 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 02:15 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't get this complaining. Bonus damage is just a selective nerf. Just imagine if infernal preigniter modified normal damage instead of bonus. You would be complaining (and rightfully so) about that OP hellion needing to do less damage to everything. With the it added to bonus though they are manageable. It seems people are ignoring the damage charts that were linked, and asking "whats the problem?". Look at the charts, and you will see that WITHOUT the bonuses considered, Terran has higher power per resource value, and higher power per population, across the board. When you consider the bonuses, it's just rediculous. Do the math. Lings are the only unit that is valuable in the 2 areas mentioned, and they are not too viable vs a full Terran army composition do to their huge range, tanks, and how fast stimmed bio mows them down before they reach them. A Roach only has 40% of the potential of an UNSTIMMED marine per population. Sure, you can make another wave of them, but are you going to be able to make 2.5 waves to the Terrans 1? No.... It doesnt work like that. Hydras only have 70% of the potential of an unstimmed Marine. STIMMED marines are equivalent to nearly 3 Hydras. We sink in MANY more resources just to have an army that is not possibly equialent even with higher population than Terran. Marines, Reapers, Marauders, and Thors are ALL more valuable per resource value AND supply/population value than all Zerg units aside from Lings - which already mentioned could not even get close to mixed armies at the mid to late game. That's not even factoring how devestating Tanks can be. The only way for a varied Zerg army to be equivalent in terms of power is to have 2.5-3 times as many units, which is just not possible. Typically if you pull ahead on economy you will still be at most a few dozen ahead on population. So it makes the argument of "Well Zerg can jsut make another wave after they die" a bad one. It's not possible to make 3 full attack waves of units before they get in to your base, and that's what they need to do to defeat Terrans units WITHOUT their attack bonuses. Just think how bad the situation is if you start considering their attack bonuses, and the fact that they can also keep producing units to back up their army while you remake each wave? On the claims of "bonus damage being a selective nerf" - This is only true if their damage is comparable without having bonus damage. When Stim Marines do 20.9 focus fire damage per mineral value, Marauders on NON ARMORED TARGETS do 10.6, and Hydras only do 9, how is that a selective nerf? The truth is, it's a selective BUFF because Mara even do more focus damage against light targets.
I await a response to this post that doesn't make me face palm. I can't fathom the argument someone will make, but I don't doubt one will exist.
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I think that it is really hard for any of us to claim imbalances in the game.
The only way to know for sure if something is or is not balanced is with data. Statistics.
Only looking at win/loss ratio of every race in every league to know if it is imbalanced in some way.
Saying: "zerg units do not have bonus damage, terran does, so it's imbalanced" it's the same thing as comparing one unit to another without observing the context.
I am also tired of these threads. I think we should be trying to came up with solutions with the game as is. "Are you dying making roaches?" do banelings. "Dying making banelings?" Try something different.
Asking for changes as we think would be best won't do anything.
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On August 06 2010 04:45 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 04:25 Spyridon wrote:On August 06 2010 02:15 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't get this complaining. Bonus damage is just a selective nerf. Just imagine if infernal preigniter modified normal damage instead of bonus. You would be complaining (and rightfully so) about that OP hellion needing to do less damage to everything. With the it added to bonus though they are manageable. It seems people are ignoring the damage charts that were linked, and asking "whats the problem?". Look at the charts, and you will see that WITHOUT the bonuses considered, Terran has higher power per resource value, and higher power per population, across the board. When you consider the bonuses, it's just rediculous. Do the math. Lings are the only unit that is valuable in the 2 areas mentioned, and they are not too viable vs a full Terran army composition do to their huge range, tanks, and how fast stimmed bio mows them down before they reach them. A Roach only has 40% of the potential of an UNSTIMMED marine per population. Sure, you can make another wave of them, but are you going to be able to make 2.5 waves to the Terrans 1? No.... It doesnt work like that. Hydras only have 70% of the potential of an unstimmed Marine. STIMMED marines are equivalent to nearly 3 Hydras. We sink in MANY more resources just to have an army that is not possibly equialent even with higher population than Terran. Marines, Reapers, Marauders, and Thors are ALL more valuable per resource value AND supply/population value than all Zerg units aside from Lings - which already mentioned could not even get close to mixed armies at the mid to late game. That's not even factoring how devestating Tanks can be. The only way for a varied Zerg army to be equivalent in terms of power is to have 2.5-3 times as many units, which is just not possible. Typically if you pull ahead on economy you will still be at most a few dozen ahead on population. So it makes the argument of "Well Zerg can jsut make another wave after they die" a bad one. It's not possible to make 3 full attack waves of units before they get in to your base, and that's what they need to do to defeat Terrans units WITHOUT their attack bonuses. Just think how bad the situation is if you start considering their attack bonuses, and the fact that they can also keep producing units to back up their army while you remake each wave? On the claims of "bonus damage being a selective nerf" - This is only true if their damage is comparable without having bonus damage. When Stim Marines do 20.9 focus fire damage per mineral value, Marauders on NON ARMORED TARGETS do 10.6, and Hydras only do 9, how is that a selective nerf? The truth is, it's a selective BUFF because Mara even do more focus damage against light targets. I await a response to this post that doesn't make me face palm. I can't fathom the argument someone will make, but I don't doubt one will exist.
You're an idiot.
You keep talking about Bonus Damage like it's some kind of free handout and Zerg got stuck last in line at the giveaway. It's not. Units weren't designed around their normal damage and then given another +X vs armored just for giggles.
Without its bonuses, a Marauder puts out less damage than a single Marine. Part of why people don't like Corruptors is because so much of their damage is put into an obscure bonus. Stalkers were considered bad in the first half of the Beta because they had terrible normal damage and couldn't deal with Mutas (and generally just sucked vs anything non-armored), so Blizzard weighted them a bit more towards normal damage and everyone was happy even though they lost their extra +1 from upgrades. Terran Missile Turrets were considered problematic in Beta when they did 7+7 vs Armored because they were awful against light units like Mutas and Phoenixes, so they where switched to 12 raw damage, and again, everyone was happy even though this meant they did less damage vs armored.
I'm not saying Zerg is fine, but pointing at bonus damage like it's free money and saying "THAT'S THE PROBLEM!" isn't a compelling argument, and getting condescending about it just makes you look like a discredit to the species.
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Banelings does insane damage vs Light ground units so thats a fair reason, and Zerg are all mass units so with bonus damage it would be too strong.
Zerg is strong right now except against mech as they have no way to tackle tanks effectively.
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EPT
