Heres stomp, Last two terran units (that share same upgrades) are unbeatable (with equal skill), the almighty synergy of doom, called Terran Mech. But actually its just Thor is broken, as unlike any other unit Thor completely eliminates whole class, whole class called air, meanwhile doing some serious ground damage as well. Tanks are dominating ground, thats fine, thats what air units for. But there cannot be two units that are dominating everything. But still, problem is Thor, why Thor and not Tank? Read the Half's post .
With a very little support Thor does not have any counter at all, allowing Tank seem to be OP, while actually Tank is unit that makes Starcraft to be Starcraft and not C&C whatever. It brings some very specific and unique dynamic in game, not just ball on ball stuff. Tank is fine, really.
Thor plus Turrets plus Raven abosrb is what makes mech to be OP. It's OP because being the strongest ground synergy (like it should, at cost of mobility) mech in same time completely invulnerable to air, thats the problem. Thor is broken.
On June 04 2010 14:14 guitarizt wrote: Just tried 35 1/1 roaches with speed against 10 2/0 tanks in unit tester and there's still 7 tanks left against the roaches.
Uhh, 2/0 tanks are pretty much 0/0 tanks pre-patch 15. Wouldn't it be more neutral and revealing test if you just done it without any upgrades? Naturally, the damage scaling is far in favor of the tanks and it'll get still get harder for the zerg as the game drags on. But really, you shouldn't be expecting to do much against Siege Tanks with pure Roaches at this point (maybe in the past, the less than ideal splash damage gave more leeway in this matchup).
On June 04 2010 14:41 PrinceXizor wrote: Er.... did i say i only played vs tank + vikings? no i even said the opposite. BTW the "mech" composition i was testing against was about 10 hellions, 15 vikings 2 ravens 5 thors and 15 tanks. that's about 130 food worth of army, which i'd consider more than a typical terran will employ, but i might be wrong on that point. you send the corruptors in to die and kill off the ravens and then go in with your force.
Also i found just attacking this way gets your force killed you kind of have to micro with burrow and your roaches. unburrow get off a volley each then burrow to regen ect. the plan fails when the enemy has mass ravens, i figured the corruptor number is variable to the number of ravens you need to eliminate, but having ALOT of ravens makes the build unfeasible as well as it being easy to split up ravens (IE keep one in the base) and move it over the army after i take out the ones with your army. it's alot less common though so i figured it wasn't a big deal having that as your achilles heel.
But you said you only had to replace Ultras in your post above. Now it sounds like you have to replace Ultras AND Corruptors.
Your explaination had just pieces of the Terran puzzle listed so it was difficult to extract the rest of the composition. No where did it say that he had Ravens, or even Hellions.
But wouldn't your plan also fail if he had even a couple Scans? If he saw the Roaches, I would be hard pressed to believe he wasn't scanning the area to nail such close range Roaches.
You have to replace corruptors yeah, but replacing corruptors doesn't create a gaping timing window in your build the way ultralisks do with them taking so damn long to complete.
and Yeah scans are an issue and to be honest the only way i can think of dealing with that, is some brilliant timing with overseers contaminating the orbitals so they can't cast for 30 seconds.
I mentioned detection in the roach/hydra fail, and i assumed hellions would be a part as a mineral dump + added protection vs lings.
I'll get Reps up as soon as i have some in the new patch since it should work a hell of alot better in the new patch and be less "well if the terran just went into hold mode what would you have to defend a counter" kind of thing. the attack tends to be all in, in waves. if that makes sense. you all in, and then you have about two minutes game time where you are vulnerable, and then you can break it again. which is why i said you will do fine unless terran has a ton of factories pumping units. it's full of holes and better players obviously change it up alot. but i think idra and artosis and other top zerg definitely can fill in some of those holes with better play.
EDIT: guitars yeah it's not cost effective to kill ravens that way but hell it's the only way you can deal with the tanks that i've found outside of rediculous amounts of ultralisks. its TIME effective to kill their army that way though, and i figure zergs can get better economies up than terran and time is really the deciding factor in the matchup.
I love playing z with my t. I haven't lost a game to z in past 8 games, cept when lings slipped choke during fact/rax lift-switch. Lings v SCVs is unfair. Plz nerf lings.
Anyway, at 2nd-place plat, I can't lose to z. Wonder what they doing in diamond.
On June 04 2010 13:59 IdrA wrote: you people act like its hard to test something like this thoroughly.. tanks obliterate everything except roaches, kind of, on the ground and sensor towers make any kind of drop, nydus, harass-based play worthless. doesnt give you many options, you figure out that overwhelming them with roaches is impractical, ultras still suck, mutas can run around being gay but ultimately you're gonna have to deal with an army that... you cant deal with, and pdd + vikings > heavy air.
the only way to win was to either have your opponent not execute it correctly, either in terms of mechanics or not using sensor towers or ravens, or to simply be way better than them.
Excuuusse me? "You people"? What do you mean "you people"?
... the people who are acting like its hard to test something like this thoroughly you know the words right after "you people"
IdrA you know casual players can't balance the game or even test it correctly. I include myself in the casual group along with most diamond league players or anyone who doesn't play competitively in tournaments, leagues etc.
then casual players should recognize their shortcomings and shut up and listen to the people who know what theyre talking about instead of filling threads like this with bullshit.
mech is not imba cause you can't beat it. stop qq'ing about everything you get beat by, figure it out ffs. people are freaking amazing at whining when they lose too shit. rather rage and whine than get better.
On June 04 2010 14:14 guitarizt wrote: Just tried 35 1/1 roaches with speed against 10 2/0 tanks in unit tester and there's still 7 tanks left against the roaches. The roaches still melt to the tanks. I tried using burrow and tunneling claws and terran still has 3-4 tanks left. You can kill them all if you position the roaches absolutely perfectly but I tried to recreate what would happen in a real game and you're never going to have a perfect position.
I still don't see how zerg is supposed to defend against tanks with anything other than bl's because nothing on the ground can even touch tanks. All terran has to do is get a crit mass of tanks and vikings for bl's and I think if they don't win it's terran's fault at that point because it's impossible to pick off the tanks and harassing their bases at that point is delaying the inevitable. This patch doesn't have an answer to mech for zerg late game although it'll be easier for zerg to win before late game so on paper it might look ok.
So what is your point? As a Zerg you will have your Roaches back in 27 seconds ... ALL OF THEM, while the Terran needs 45 seconds for one in each of his factories. I doubt there are 10 factories around to replenish everything in one go.
Please keep your race-mechanics in mind before posting such comparisons, because it is utterly ridiculous how Zerg are able to replenish a 200/200 army in one go, while the other two races are limited by the number of their MULTIPLE production facilities of several types.
On June 04 2010 14:03 iEchoic wrote: I fail to see how mutas don't work vs terran mech. I think that a majority of Zerg players make the following mistakes with their mutas:
1) They directly engage multiple thors 2) They are afraid of killing missile turrets (more on this below) 3) When the opponent's army attacks, they run back and fight it
The conclusion I came to from testing was that Mutas are the answer to terran Mech. If the Terran player attacks, just have a base race. You will both end up losing your base, but the mutas can fly around the map preventing terran from expoing while zerg can continue to expo and stay alive while thors are too slow to prevent it.
Zerg players throw a panic fit when the Terran places missile turrets and then attacks. Once you get 6+ mutas, you can drop missile turrets without a scratch. Just drop the turrets. Zerg players are WAY too scared of missile turrets.
You can win a fight vs mutas with thors but if the fight doesn't occur that advantage is completely negated.
plz show us REPLAY of you killing mech terran with mutas, seriously DO IT and you will see by yourself.
Why in the world would you try it with mutas? Because Brood Lords didnt exist in SC1? Air is the way to go if you want to kill Terran mech, but not Mutas.
Did you not read my post about zerg throwing multiple armies at terran yet they still can't even really make a dent in their army? I forget who it was that played a game on steppes of war but zerg threw three maxed armies at terran and didn't even make a dent. I think it was casted by iccup.
Zerg can have 70 2/2 roaches that lose to 20 2/0 tanks and there's still 16 tanks left. How many armies do you want zerg to throw at that? So zerg is forced to go bl corrupter but I haven't seen anyone get that to work in any high level game.
Completely agreed about the thor point. I'd prefer that the thor was placed into a more goliath type role, without splash or the anti-light bonus. that way mutas could help a little more. But of course that would force zerg to make mutas, which would, in turn make terran stop going mech all together. Ugh, there's such a thin line between useful and OP.
EDIT: although i would be really interested to see how hard of a time TLO has beating mech.
On June 04 2010 15:13 KMK wrote: mech is not imba cause you can't beat it. stop qq'ing about everything you get beat by, figure it out ffs. people are freaking amazing at whining when they lose too shit. rather rage and whine than get better.
It's beatable but the way to beat it is stupid atm because zerg has to end the game early by either opening roach and going muta back to roach or opening muta and going roach. We have to rely on stupid tactics like hoping terran screws up and we can drop or nydus them and they lose too much econ while letting us double expo. It reminds me of early beta where all the tosses loved the mid game push because as the game went longer it was hard to beat zerg. They started figuring out how to fast expo but for zerg that doesn't even matter because we can have more bases and I still can't get out enough stuff. If you start out a platinum terran player with 3 bases 20 tanks against a zerg with all his hive tech ready, 5 mins to build and two more expos the terran player will win more even though he's a worse player. That doesn't seem right to me.
I actually want to hear what idrA wants for balance. If you do read this, I'd be interested in hearing you SC2 balance thoughts at high level. Or did he make a post on it specifically already?
I still feel the answer lies in mutalisks, thors are just so incredibly slow and hard to mass ...I don't see them fending off something like split up groups of three muta's each attacking different places. Your muta's should always outnumber Thors and these simply can't be everywhere ...
Muta's could also be efficient at sniping ravens, giving burrowed units a lot more room to play. Plus replacing ravens is a lot of gas that doesn't get pumped into tanks/ thor. Scanning also means a lot less minerals for turret spamming. Terrans should definately be hurt economically as straight up engaging maxxed out mech doesn't work without Dark Swarm.
I am tempted to play Zerg for a while to figure this out ... beating something dubbed unbeatable makes it all the more jummy to pull off. Hmm ... will def. return with more crazy theorycraft for you to shoot down
On June 04 2010 15:30 DooMDash wrote: I actually want to hear what idrA wants for balance. If you do read this, I'd be interested in hearing you SC2 balance thoughts at high level. Or did he make a post on it specifically already?
Increasing brood lord speed or reducing thor speed would allow brood lords to hard counter mech by kiting thors and having broodlings wreak havoc with tank friendly fire.
Either of these changes could have dangerous repercussions vs protoss though;
Fungal growth's range of 9 doesn't allow the infestor to get within range of tanks, but possibly within range of thors which could let the brood lords dip in and out of range, shooting at the offending tanks/thors as needed. Maybe increasing range of fungal growth would be a fair change...sac an overlord getting vision, send an infestor to snare them->brood lord(s) dip(s) into and out of range of thors shooting broodlings (also provides friendly fire dmg from tanks, assuming sieged), should be able to either attack tanks and kill them quickly or do a little dmg to the thors (400 hp is quite a mountain tho)
New forum goer here: You supposed pros are suuch idiots. Lets break it down. If tank's splash is owning up your army then don't send them in all at once plain in simple. What i do is send 2 roaches at a to distract the tanks then roll over their army and kill their base its literally THAT SIMPLE. I'll post some replays later.
On June 04 2010 13:59 IdrA wrote: you people act like its hard to test something like this thoroughly.. tanks obliterate everything except roaches, kind of, on the ground and sensor towers make any kind of drop, nydus, harass-based play worthless. doesnt give you many options, you figure out that overwhelming them with roaches is impractical, ultras still suck, mutas can run around being gay but ultimately you're gonna have to deal with an army that... you cant deal with, and pdd + vikings > heavy air.
the only way to win was to either have your opponent not execute it correctly, either in terms of mechanics or not using sensor towers or ravens, or to simply be way better than them.
Excuuusse me? "You people"? What do you mean "you people"?
... the people who are acting like its hard to test something like this thoroughly you know the words right after "you people"
Oh, those people. Jeeeez TL, no need for a warning. Can't a guy post an overused black joke anymore? You people? I bet if Chris Rock would've said it, it would've been just fine.
Personally, I am in agreement with the idea that Terran mech was imba. Whether or not this patch will make much of a difference in TvZ, I guess we'll find out...and it will be interesting to see what this does to PvT as well. Tanks were definitely OP though and needed to be nerfed somehow. A tier 2 armored unit that has the capability to do 60 damage (without upgrades) with splash at a range of 13...idk about you, but it sounds a bit OP to me. Yes, it is a costly unit, but with their effectiveness it damn well should be.
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely.
On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote: i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely.
I just love how your comment doesn't contribute in any way to this thread and actually seems to be a comment from the official bnet forums.
You're the kind of person that thinks "blank known gamer said Terran mech is imba, so it must be true". Just like some people think the world will end in 2012. Luckily there are still people that try to overcome obstacles rather than lying in front of them and complaining that they're there. And that's where TLO gains a little credit for offering to do showmatches Zerg vs mech (even though he might be steamrollered anyway). Idra and Artosis deserve equal credit for at least trying to find a decent counter, which I'm sure will happen eventually (muta's for sure )
You on the other hand write posts which suggests that everyone besides the absolute #1 Diamond pro's don't know shit and shouldn't make suggestions. And what's just so damn funny is that you don't even know us or our rankings to begin with.
EPT
