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On June 04 2010 15:15 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On June 04 2010 14:14 guitarizt wrote:
Just tried 35 1/1 roaches with speed against 10 2/0 tanks in unit tester and there's still 7 tanks left against the roaches. The roaches still melt to the tanks. I tried using burrow and tunneling claws and terran still has 3-4 tanks left. You can kill them all if you position the roaches absolutely perfectly but I tried to recreate what would happen in a real game and you're never going to have a perfect position.
I still don't see how zerg is supposed to defend against tanks with anything other than bl's because nothing on the ground can even touch tanks. All terran has to do is get a crit mass of tanks and vikings for bl's and I think if they don't win it's terran's fault at that point because it's impossible to pick off the tanks and harassing their bases at that point is delaying the inevitable. This patch doesn't have an answer to mech for zerg late game although it'll be easier for zerg to win before late game so on paper it might look ok. So what is your point? As a Zerg you will have your Roaches back in 27 seconds ... ALL OF THEM, while the Terran needs 45 seconds for one in each of his factories. I doubt there are 10 factories around to replenish everything in one go. Please keep your race-mechanics in mind before posting such comparisons, because it is utterly ridiculous how Zerg are able to replenish a 200/200 army in one go, while the other two races are limited by the number of their MULTIPLE production facilities of several types. On June 04 2010 14:06 Trok67 wrote:On June 04 2010 14:03 iEchoic wrote:
I fail to see how mutas don't work vs terran mech. I think that a majority of Zerg players make the following mistakes with their mutas:
1) They directly engage multiple thors
2) They are afraid of killing missile turrets (more on this below)
3) When the opponent's army attacks, they run back and fight it
The conclusion I came to from testing was that Mutas are the answer to terran Mech. If the Terran player attacks, just have a base race. You will both end up losing your base, but the mutas can fly around the map preventing terran from expoing while zerg can continue to expo and stay alive while thors are too slow to prevent it.
Zerg players throw a panic fit when the Terran places missile turrets and then attacks. Once you get 6+ mutas, you can drop missile turrets without a scratch. Just drop the turrets. Zerg players are WAY too scared of missile turrets.
You can win a fight vs mutas with thors but if the fight doesn't occur that advantage is completely negated. plz show us REPLAY of you killing mech terran with mutas, seriously DO IT and you will see by yourself. Why in the world would you try it with mutas? Because Brood Lords didnt exist in SC1? Air is the way to go if you want to kill Terran mech, but not Mutas. Did you not read my post about zerg throwing multiple armies at terran yet they still can't even really make a dent in their army? I forget who it was that played a game on steppes of war but zerg threw three maxed armies at terran and didn't even make a dent. I think it was casted by iccup. Zerg can have 70 2/2 roaches that lose to 20 2/0 tanks and there's still 16 tanks left. How many armies do you want zerg to throw at that? So zerg is forced to go bl corrupter but I haven't seen anyone get that to work in any high level game.
Did YOU bother reading my post? "Throw army at tanks" ... of course he gets toasted. Sieged tanks are immobile and CANT SHOOT AIR, so you are supposed to NOT attack with ground armies but with air. No matter what anyone saiys a ton of corruptors and a few Brood Lords (plus maybe a queen for Transfusion on BLs?) will get rid of a mech army. Stop whining and figure it out the same way that Terrans have figured out that Depots against Zerg are vulnerable to Baneling bust and that Barracks/Factories work much better.
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Ok welp make up your minds then someone said zerg has it easy cause they can just macro up another army implying that should be the answer. I never said to fight tanks head on but at some point you have to deal with 15 tanks with support heading towards your nat.
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Germany767 Posts
TLO is completely wrong. pre-this-patch (havent tried this patch yet), properly played mech is completely unbeatable by zerg. if he's been winning vs it, he's been playing people who have no idea how to mech.
I promise you. After I found some new builds together with Jinro I had no problem beating some high level Terrans anymore at all. (not that I had too much trouble dealing with mech before, but now it seemed like my win ratio sky rocketed, of course that is only because they havent played it before and didnt react with the perfect counter, but it shows that the current mech build wasnt not rofloverpowered)
Just because you and Idra didnt come up with a solution, doesnt mean there is none. You should open your mind for new solutions. I am sure you have not tested everything possible.
I dont like your whole attitude, even if some races dominates for a few months with a bo, it doesnt mean it is imbalanced, it might only show that i.e Zerg hasnt found a proper counter yet.
You sir seem to be biased by your favourite race 
Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time.
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On June 04 2010 13:39 Artosis wrote:
im simply stating the truth here. idra and i looked into it completely. i did nothing but play vs mech for 2 weeks. i spoke with every top zerg player on the subject. we tested every combo and timing. i am not whining, i know it will be patched, im simply stating the findings of the best players, something else that you should love.
No matter how good you could be you're quite arrogant to think you'll be able to think about and try out ALL the possibilites in a game of this complexity.
Beside, the bias is very strong in here.
On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely.
Fuck, I thought he was ? Or well, I thought he was more like McGyver
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Please make my day and confirm it involves muta's TLO 
And I'm kinda curious whether you'll still be taking on Mecchan challengers as Zerg, since the siege tanks already got nerfed? Would be awesome nonetheless.
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On June 04 2010 18:28 TheLittleOne wrote:Show nested quote +TLO is completely wrong. pre-this-patch (havent tried this patch yet), properly played mech is completely unbeatable by zerg. if he's been winning vs it, he's been playing people who have no idea how to mech. I promise you. After I found some new builds together with Jinro I had no problem beating some high level Terrans anymore at all. (not that I had too much trouble dealing with mech before, but now it seemed like my win ratio sky rocketed, of course that is only because they havent played it before and didnt react with the perfect counter, but it shows that the current mech build wasnt not rofloverpowered) Just because you and Idra didnt come up with a solution, doesnt mean there is none. You should open your mind for new solutions. I am sure you have not tested everything possible. I dont like your whole attitude, even if some races dominates for a few months with a bo, it doesnt mean it is imbalanced, it might only show that i.e Zerg hasnt found a proper counter yet. You sir seem to be biased by your favourite race Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time.
TLO is officially my favorite SC2 player....(sorry LZ!!)
The guy played random for 9/10 of the beta so ill take his word on balance over any 1 race master at this point.
2 weeks is hardly enough time for people to start calling a strat OP. Anyone remember when the fantasy build started getting popular in BW for a while?
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the word "build" is just out of place. it's raw facts: mass mech vs Z ... army vs army. how do you beat it. you don't beat it. ofc you can nydus etc to a certain point (let's say sensor towers are an illusion) and do dmg to his "immobile mech left alone base. but that's not the point .... it's about raw muscle power. army vs army.
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In the beginning everyone agreed that Terran mech was unplayable. Then they got two tiny changes (splash damage center change and + 10 hp for siege tank) and now all of a sudden its overpowered?
I find this slightly irritating and the "we tried everything and we are the best to check it and no one else can succeed if we didnt" attitude of two prominent Zerg players here shockingly biased. Wasnt there a quote thrown around in the beginning that there is no imbalance, but rather that you just had to figure out how to beat something?
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On June 04 2010 18:28 TheLittleOne wrote:Show nested quote +TLO is completely wrong. pre-this-patch (havent tried this patch yet), properly played mech is completely unbeatable by zerg. if he's been winning vs it, he's been playing people who have no idea how to mech. I promise you. After I found some new builds together with Jinro I had no problem beating some high level Terrans anymore at all. (not that I had too much trouble dealing with mech before, but now it seemed like my win ratio sky rocketed, of course that is only because they havent played it before and didnt react with the perfect counter, but it shows that the current mech build wasnt not rofloverpowered) Just because you and Idra didnt come up with a solution, doesnt mean there is none. You should open your mind for new solutions. I am sure you have not tested everything possible. I dont like your whole attitude, even if some races dominates for a few months with a bo, it doesnt mean it is imbalanced, it might only show that i.e Zerg hasnt found a proper counter yet. You sir seem to be biased by your favourite race Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time.
Would you share this BO of yours anytime soon? Not saying I don't believe you, but you know, examples, BO are needed not reassurances that "there is a way".
The patch surprised me too. With the numbers of games played over the course of 1 day alone however, Blizz should be able to generate a hole lot of data. Enough to compare this to the data of patch 14. So lets all get back into the game and give them what they need shall we?
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mech wasnt that imba before, i think it was pretty fair but the majority of maps in the mappool will always lean towards terran just like desert oasis like maps will always lean towards the zerg in favor
i think the change was pretty fair but very unlogical
this patch will not make it impossible for terran to win like many ppl have said but it will make it slightly harder
im ok with this patch but i disagree not giving the siege tank 40+20 dmg vs armored instead of now giving it straight up -10 dmg
i still really hold my thumbs for a banshee(nerf) and marauder(nerf) and baneling(stronger but die upon death instead of explode) so bio will be possible again and also so baneling micro would be hard to master. also hoping for a raven remake on the raven missile so it actually is worth upgrading. atm the drone is far better than the missile imo
cheaper carrier tech, bc range buff would also be things id approve of to see alittle more unit variety
i really think blizzard are giving us too many patches atm, they rnt giving us proper time to experiment and figure out whats imba before they make these rational decisions, like the hellion nerf now was completely uncalled for
edit: oh sorry thought this was the patch discussion thread :p i guess some of it is relevant tho )
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On June 04 2010 21:00 nyshak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 18:28 TheLittleOne wrote:TLO is completely wrong. pre-this-patch (havent tried this patch yet), properly played mech is completely unbeatable by zerg. if he's been winning vs it, he's been playing people who have no idea how to mech. I promise you. After I found some new builds together with Jinro I had no problem beating some high level Terrans anymore at all. (not that I had too much trouble dealing with mech before, but now it seemed like my win ratio sky rocketed, of course that is only because they havent played it before and didnt react with the perfect counter, but it shows that the current mech build wasnt not rofloverpowered) Just because you and Idra didnt come up with a solution, doesnt mean there is none. You should open your mind for new solutions. I am sure you have not tested everything possible. I dont like your whole attitude, even if some races dominates for a few months with a bo, it doesnt mean it is imbalanced, it might only show that i.e Zerg hasnt found a proper counter yet. You sir seem to be biased by your favourite race Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time. Would you share this BO of yours anytime soon? Not saying I don't believe you, but you know, examples, BO are needed not reassurances that "there is a way". The patch surprised me too. With the numbers of games played over the course of 1 day alone however, Blizz should be able to generate a hole lot of data. Enough to compare this to the data of patch 14. So lets all get back into the game and give them what they need shall we?
Yes but are you winning late game? Isn't it bad for the game if one race is heavily favored to win late game and another has to end the game before it gets there in order to have a chance?
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Germany767 Posts
I actually AIM for the lategame. I hate the early game vs Terran.
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On June 04 2010 21:26 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:00 nyshak wrote:On June 04 2010 18:28 TheLittleOne wrote:TLO is completely wrong. pre-this-patch (havent tried this patch yet), properly played mech is completely unbeatable by zerg. if he's been winning vs it, he's been playing people who have no idea how to mech. I promise you. After I found some new builds together with Jinro I had no problem beating some high level Terrans anymore at all. (not that I had too much trouble dealing with mech before, but now it seemed like my win ratio sky rocketed, of course that is only because they havent played it before and didnt react with the perfect counter, but it shows that the current mech build wasnt not rofloverpowered) Just because you and Idra didnt come up with a solution, doesnt mean there is none. You should open your mind for new solutions. I am sure you have not tested everything possible. I dont like your whole attitude, even if some races dominates for a few months with a bo, it doesnt mean it is imbalanced, it might only show that i.e Zerg hasnt found a proper counter yet. You sir seem to be biased by your favourite race Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time. Would you share this BO of yours anytime soon? Not saying I don't believe you, but you know, examples, BO are needed not reassurances that "there is a way". The patch surprised me too. With the numbers of games played over the course of 1 day alone however, Blizz should be able to generate a hole lot of data. Enough to compare this to the data of patch 14. So lets all get back into the game and give them what they need shall we? Yes but are you winning late game? Isn't it bad for the game if one race is heavily favored to win late game and another has to end the game before it gets there in order to have a chance?
Terran isn't heavily favored late game unless you allow him to get equal or more bases than you, which was the same in broodwar.....
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On June 04 2010 21:09 MorroW wrote:
baneling(stronger but die upon death instead of explode)
I totally agree on this.. The "normal" usage of banelings is so stupid. There are nice usages of this unit with overlord or burrow but the "run and explode no matter what" thing is just dumb.
It's not interresting for the player who is playing the banelings and the player who is playing against.
They should be patched in order to make them more interresting to play. For example, lurkers were a success in term of micro for both players..
But, since Blizzard didn't change them in 15 patches, i guess they have no plan to do it in the future
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2010 21:09 MorroW wrote:
mech wasnt that imba before, i think it was pretty fair but the majority of maps in the mappool will always lean towards terran just like desert oasis like maps will always lean towards the zerg in favor
i think the change was pretty fair but very unlogical
this patch will not make it impossible for terran to win like many ppl have said but it will make it slightly harder
im ok with this patch but i disagree not giving the siege tank 40+20 dmg vs armored instead of now giving it straight up -10 dmg
i still really hold my thumbs for a banshee(nerf) and marauder(nerf) and baneling(stronger but die upon death instead of explode) so bio will be possible again and also so baneling micro would be hard to master. also hoping for a raven remake on the raven missile so it actually is worth upgrading. atm the drone is far better than the missile imo
cheaper carrier tech, bc range buff would also be things id approve of to see alittle more unit variety
i really think blizzard are giving us too many patches atm, they rnt giving us proper time to experiment and figure out whats imba before they make these rational decisions, like the hellion nerf now was completely uncalled for
edit: oh sorry thought this was the patch discussion thread :p i guess some of it is relevant tho )
Best post in here and I completely agree.
I must say though that the point of the whole terran mech vs Z discussion is skewed in my mind, it should not be about if its unbeatable or not (its not) but how hard or easy the resp. builds/strats are to execute. In this case its extremely easy to play terran mech, and insanly hard for Z to win.
That translate into;
At a higher lvl where players are really good about all aspects of the game, this MU is not unbalanced. But at lower lvl, like mid-diamond and lower where the players are less accomplished, Z-players have a really hard time doing all that is required to compete with T-mech, while the T players have a much easier time. THAT is the problem imo.
Fixing the ZvT MU could simply have been done by increasing supplycap to 300/300 for instance. The tanknerf, well not that big of a deal really. Dont think the before mentioned players(me included) will be helped much by it, because the easy T vs hard Z approach still applies.
The tank-nerf I thought would be coming was a significantly longer sieging-time for tanks, but I guess they went another route.
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On June 04 2010 21:28 TheLittleOne wrote:
I actually AIM for the lategame. I hate the early game vs Terran.
Mind uploading 2-3 replays of your games ZvTmech ??
cause... right now all I see is words and words and words.... not that I don't trust you or anything, just that I'm septical about it!
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On June 04 2010 21:28 TheLittleOne wrote:
I actually AIM for the lategame. I hate the early game vs Terran.
omg ru gonna make us beg for reps =D
<edit> actually it's probably better if you just use it against a terran in a tournament that way you're ahead of the curve
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On June 04 2010 21:48 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:28 TheLittleOne wrote:
I actually AIM for the lategame. I hate the early game vs Terran. Mind uploading 2-3 replays of your games ZvTmech ?? cause... right now all I see is words and words and words.... not that I don't trust you or anything, just that I'm septical about it!
You could always play him if your skeptical.
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Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time.
They've said that they wanted the game to be balanced on all levels, in the past. Maybe there is a counter for professional-level gaming, but I think that the problem lies (or used to lie) in the casual gamer range. Let's say in the 60-70 APM range and without a deep knowledge of terran (of course, against a 60-70 APM opponent who doesn't have a deep knowledge of zerg, either).
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On June 04 2010 21:58 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:48 Konsume wrote:On June 04 2010 21:28 TheLittleOne wrote:
I actually AIM for the lategame. I hate the early game vs Terran. Mind uploading 2-3 replays of your games ZvTmech ?? cause... right now all I see is words and words and words.... not that I don't trust you or anything, just that I'm septical about it! You could always play him if your skeptical.
I'm not a big fan of terrans eventho my terran account is currently in diamond with a much higher win rate than my zerg account I just don't feel the race at all, but I'd just like to see TLO back up his saying. Right now he's been saying in every page of this post that he could beat almost any Tmech or at least have some kind of superior win:lose ratio against it.
Like I said, not that I don't want to say that he's right, cause I would like to be proven wrong... and understand HOW and WHY most of the pros didn't find the solution (but him)... but right now he's staying vague about it.
It's like.... I'm telling you I'm millionaire... but I live in a small house with my dog. Do you trust me? I might be millionaire anyways and tell the truth, but my house and my dog just don't seems right. Now if I open my garage door and you see a FERARI F1, you'll say ahhh ok I trust you, you're a millionnaire.
Same thing, I'd like to beleive that there is a solution, but it doesn't look like there is one. If TLO REALLY found one, than... he might be able to show us 2-3 replays to prove it and than we'll be able to say... WoW TLO you're really a god of SC2 !
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