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On June 04 2010 14:03 iEchoic wrote:
I fail to see how mutas don't work vs terran mech. I think that a majority of Zerg players make the following mistakes with their mutas:
1) They directly engage multiple thors
2) They are afraid of killing missile turrets (more on this below)
3) When the opponent's army attacks, they run back and fight it
The conclusion I came to from testing was that Mutas are the answer to terran Mech. If the Terran player attacks, just have a base race. You will both end up losing your base, but the mutas can fly around the map preventing terran from expoing while zerg can continue to expo and stay alive while thors are too slow to prevent it.
Zerg players throw a panic fit when the Terran places missile turrets and then attacks. Once you get 6+ mutas, you can drop missile turrets without a scratch. Just drop the turrets. Zerg players are WAY too scared of missile turrets.
You can win a fight vs mutas with thors but if the fight doesn't occur that advantage is completely negated.
what game are you playing
it sounds like fun
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On June 04 2010 14:03 iEchoic wrote:
I fail to see how mutas don't work vs terran mech. I think that a majority of Zerg players make the following mistakes with their mutas:
1) They directly engage multiple thors
2) They are afraid of killing missile turrets (more on this below)
3) When the opponent's army attacks, they run back and fight it
The conclusion I came to from testing was that Mutas are the answer to terran Mech. If the Terran player attacks, just have a base race. You will both end up losing your base, but the mutas can fly around the map preventing terran from expoing while zerg can continue to expo and stay alive while thors are too slow to prevent it.
Zerg players throw a panic fit when the Terran places missile turrets and then attacks. Once you get 6+ mutas, you can drop missile turrets without a scratch. Just drop the turrets. Zerg players are WAY too scared of missile turrets.
You can win a fight vs mutas with thors but if the fight doesn't occur that advantage is completely negated.
plz show us REPLAY of you killing mech terran with mutas, seriously DO IT and you will see by yourself.
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He only talked to idra, who is also very opinionated. hell gamers are some of the most stubborn opinionated groups of people, it makes some of us extremely good at what we do that way (like artosis and idra) but it makes them also very unwilling to try random crazy stuff, like what TLO does.
Thing's i've tried that failed;
Base race: terran floats building along with army and wins.
Roach/hydra: roaches get killed by detection or just tank fire, and hydras melt.|
Zergling Ultralisk: ultralisks get buggy when surrounded with lings and for some reason tanks target the lings with any overflow AI instead of a 2nd ultralisk, which kills that.
Brood Lord support: Terran gets vikings to compensate and splits them into a couple groups and dominates
Baneling drops: Vikings end Overlords (though effective mid game definitely not enough to win though)
Mass infestor: attempted to make loads of infestor to NP tanks simultaenously which failed because no human can possible target 16 + tanks instantly with 40ish infestors knowing exactly which infestors will be killed by tank fire and which tank they were targetting.
8 hatch zergling: LOL yeah i tried 3 basing and getting 8 hatches w/ queens and pumping retarded amounts of zerglings. worked for a little bit but tanks advanced in between waves and overpowered me
roach bombing: doesn't do enough overflow splash to kill the tanks and the overloads die quickly after. not cost effective enough.
Literally one game i killed all my drones and got 33 ultralisks and that wiped the terran force. but really at that point you are all in and unless you have crazy amounts of static defense including AA it won't work, and really no terran is going to see that happening, and let it happen.
Finding out that ultralisks at least can pierce the line of tanks in large enough numbers i slowly reduced the amount of ultralisks needed, i found that 20 ultralisks will kill mech lines effectively. this only leaves 80 food for non ultralisks, which while possible is way to expensive to get 20 ultralisks, so i tried different combinations WITH ultralisks, ling ultra didn't work, ultra infestor was bad, ultra hydra while good vs toss sucked vs mech, ultra brood lord, effective but too branched out and vikings dominated. tried ultralisk muta, didn't work because of thor and too gas heavy. so i decided i needed a moderately high cost mineralwise unit that uses low amounts of gas, came up with the roach or the zergling. knew zergling didn't work so i got roaches, did okay with it, except it was failing me miserably when it comes to efficiency i thought about how to up this efficiency, played around with gas heavy infestors, did the trick but couldn't get enough ultralisks out. so i decided on corruptors, corruption + anti air attack worked, it was cheaper on gas than infestors so it worked into the build pretty effectively, so i tried burrowed roaches underneath charging ultralisks with corruptors corrupting the tanks and taking out air. it worked, i had to replenish ultralisks after every attack, and if they had enoough factories and stuff it wasn't sustainable, but it was enough to eliminate an army and then charge the base and take out an expo, which pretty much always gave me the GG. thats how i've beaten mech. ultra/roach/corruptor. 3 high hp armored units each using their unique ability to gain an advantage.
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You know, even if it's balanced, it's really boring to watch. Maybe zerg players will figure out how to have some aggression in the first twenty minutes of the game, and maybe it's just a matter of taste, but I think it's sort of a style that's not very fun to play, definitely not fun to play against, and not fun to watch.
As long as they don't nerf the biomech stuff, which makes for a dynamic match-up, I definitely don't have a problem with Blizzard making pure, turtling mech weak. Make the ultralisk hard-counter tanks. Like, make "frenzy" give a unit an immortal-like ability where there's a maximum damage threshold.
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On June 04 2010 14:06 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:03 iEchoic wrote:
I fail to see how mutas don't work vs terran mech. I think that a majority of Zerg players make the following mistakes with their mutas:
1) They directly engage multiple thors
2) They are afraid of killing missile turrets (more on this below)
3) When the opponent's army attacks, they run back and fight it
The conclusion I came to from testing was that Mutas are the answer to terran Mech. If the Terran player attacks, just have a base race. You will both end up losing your base, but the mutas can fly around the map preventing terran from expoing while zerg can continue to expo and stay alive while thors are too slow to prevent it.
Zerg players throw a panic fit when the Terran places missile turrets and then attacks. Once you get 6+ mutas, you can drop missile turrets without a scratch. Just drop the turrets. Zerg players are WAY too scared of missile turrets.
You can win a fight vs mutas with thors but if the fight doesn't occur that advantage is completely negated. plz show us REPLAY of you killing mech terran with mutas, seriously DO IT and you will see by yourself.
Well as the server is down and nobody can view replays (edit: forgot offline viewer), I'd like to hear your opinion on why I'm wrong.
I will give you that this won't work on small maps. But on larger maps, speed always wins base races.
On June 04 2010 14:09 PrinceXizor wrote:
Base race: terran floats building along with army and wins.
Interesting, didn't consider that. Thanks.
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You can drag replays onto sc2.exe and watch replays fine
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Just tried 35 1/1 roaches with speed against 10 2/0 tanks in unit tester and there's still 7 tanks left against the roaches. The roaches still melt to the tanks. I tried using burrow and tunneling claws and terran still has 3-4 tanks left. You can kill them all if you position the roaches absolutely perfectly but I tried to recreate what would happen in a real game and you're never going to have a perfect position.
I still don't see how zerg is supposed to defend against tanks with anything other than bl's because nothing on the ground can even touch tanks. All terran has to do is get a crit mass of tanks and vikings for bl's and I think if they don't win it's terran's fault at that point because it's impossible to pick off the tanks and harassing their bases at that point is delaying the inevitable. This patch doesn't have an answer to mech for zerg late game although it'll be easier for zerg to win before late game so on paper it might look ok.
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On June 04 2010 14:09 PrinceXizor wrote:
so i tried burrowed roaches underneath charging ultralisks with corruptors corrupting the tanks and taking out air. it worked, i had to replenish ultralisks after every attack, and if they had enoough factories and stuff it wasn't sustainable, but it was enough to eliminate an army and then charge the base and take out an expo, which pretty much always gave me the GG. thats how i've beaten mech. ultra/roach/corruptor. 3 high hp armored units each using their unique ability to gain an advantage.
So the Terran player didn't have Ravens or Scans or Thors?
While you have a solution, you seem to only have a solution against one type of composition and playstyle: tanks+air. Terran mech I imagine can be more diversified than that even including tanks. My brother plays Terran and he's beaten almost every Zerg opponent he's gone against not even using tanks. He admitted that Zerg don't seem to have a viable anti-mech composition based on his experiences. A Terran admitting this... whoa...
So, while you found a solution, that comp shouldn't be able to be hit assuming the terran is also good at harassment, which mech can also be good at pre-patch.
Too conditional in my mind to really cease the complaint of Terran mech dominance.
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If Terran mech truly dominates all you'd think it would show in rankings and tournaments ... but I can't even remember having seen a terran finalist for a while (except TLO as random).
And when you consider proper Terran mech unbeatable as Zerg, how could a nerf from 60 to 50 sieged damage suddenly make a completely imbalanced MU stable? I feel Blizzard just wants to lure terran into more bio-based play like before the Marauder nerfs ... since mech shouldn't be the best solution in every MU.
@Artosis: c'mon, don't be annoyed by this mere mortal, he knows you'd kick his ass any day 
I was wondering wether you and Idra experimented with aggressive one base muta styles instead of the passive FE wich is currently the trend? It seems muta's would do a good job at harassing and keeping tank/ viking numbers low, whilst giving Zerg total map-control. When split the muta's can even handle Thors quite well, which leaves the terran having to turret all his bases and get marines to move out. Especially on larger maps (which are bound to come in larger numbers) this huge difference in mobility should render the terran unable to defend all his expos.
Edit: I see Idra has just replied to a similar question, but it still doesn't answer why muta's aren't viable vs mecchans? Why dammit!? Explain it to us noobs 
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On June 04 2010 13:59 IdrA wrote:
you people act like its hard to test something like this thoroughly..
tanks obliterate everything except roaches, kind of, on the ground and sensor towers make any kind of drop, nydus, harass-based play worthless. doesnt give you many options, you figure out that overwhelming them with roaches is impractical, ultras still suck, mutas can run around being gay but ultimately you're gonna have to deal with an army that... you cant deal with, and pdd + vikings > heavy air.
the only way to win was to either have your opponent not execute it correctly, either in terms of mechanics or not using sensor towers or ravens, or to simply be way better than them.
Excuuusse me? "You people"? What do you mean "you people"?
User was warned for this post
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...
cuz of thors
ignore the guy babbling about base races, ya mutas can take on turrets but if you have even 1 thor there + scvs on autorepair theyre just all gonna melt, and you're never gonna be able to fight head on with an army thats even close to your resource value if you're going mass muta.
1 base muta is a cheese, or an anti cheese. if theyre playing standard/safe you have to catch them very off guard. if they have turrets up, or a thor out, or even enough marines you're way way behind economically. however if theyre cheesing, depending on what build, you defend whatever it is with the mutas and then double expand while keeping them in their base, then transition to a real army.
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On June 04 2010 14:36 lord_0siris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 13:59 IdrA wrote:
you people act like its hard to test something like this thoroughly..
tanks obliterate everything except roaches, kind of, on the ground and sensor towers make any kind of drop, nydus, harass-based play worthless. doesnt give you many options, you figure out that overwhelming them with roaches is impractical, ultras still suck, mutas can run around being gay but ultimately you're gonna have to deal with an army that... you cant deal with, and pdd + vikings > heavy air.
the only way to win was to either have your opponent not execute it correctly, either in terms of mechanics or not using sensor towers or ravens, or to simply be way better than them. Excuuusse me? "You people"? What do you mean "you people"?
...
the people who are acting like its hard to test something like this thoroughly
you know
the words right after "you people"
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On June 04 2010 14:31 mecra wrote:
So the Terran player didn't have Ravens or Scans or Thors?
While you have a solution, you seem to only have a solution against one type of composition and playstyle: tanks+air. Terran mech I imagine can be more diversified than that even including tanks. My brother plays Terran and he's beaten almost every Zerg opponent he's gone against not even using tanks. He admitted that Zerg don't seem to have a viable anti-mech composition based on his experiences. A Terran admitting this... whoa...
So, while you found a solution, that comp shouldn't be able to be hit assuming the terran is also good at harassment, which mech can also be good at pre-patch.
Too conditional in my mind to really cease the complaint of Terran mech dominance.
Er.... did i say i only played vs tank + vikings? no i even said the opposite. BTW the "mech" composition i was testing against was about 10 hellions, 15 vikings 2 ravens 5 thors and 15 tanks. that's about 130 food worth of army, which i'd consider more than a typical terran will employ, but i might be wrong on that point. you send the corruptors in to die and kill off the ravens and then go in with your force.
Also i found just attacking this way gets your force killed you kind of have to micro with burrow and your roaches. unburrow get off a volley each then burrow to regen ect. the plan fails when the enemy has mass ravens, i figured the corruptor number is variable to the number of ravens you need to eliminate, but having ALOT of ravens makes the build unfeasible as well as it being easy to split up ravens (IE keep one in the base) and move it over the army after i take out the ones with your army. it's alot less common though so i figured it wasn't a big deal having that as your achilles heel.
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This thread makes me like TLO that much more.
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This really does seem impossibly hard to break. However, I think the removal of smart targeting reaches far and beyond the scope of TvZ and it may not be the best idea, unless some other buff was placed into mech. However, that would also buff non-maxed terran mech army, so I have reservations about it too. The only thing I can think of is buffing tier 3 of zerg, but broodlords can't be buffed too much because of zvp, and blizzard doesn't seem to know what to do about ultras.
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On June 04 2010 14:41 PrinceXizor wrote:
Er.... did i say i only played vs tank + vikings? no i even said the opposite. BTW the "mech" composition i was testing against was about 10 hellions, 15 vikings 2 ravens 5 thors and 15 tanks. that's about 130 food worth of army, which i'd consider more than a typical terran will employ, but i might be wrong on that point. you send the corruptors in to die and kill off the ravens and then go in with your force.
Also i found just attacking this way gets your force killed you kind of have to micro with burrow and your roaches. unburrow get off a volley each then burrow to regen ect. the plan fails when the enemy has mass ravens, i figured the corruptor number is variable to the number of ravens you need to eliminate, but having ALOT of ravens makes the build unfeasible as well as it being easy to split up ravens (IE keep one in the base) and move it over the army after i take out the ones with your army. it's alot less common though so i figured it wasn't a big deal having that as your achilles heel.
But you said you only had to replace Ultras in your post above. Now it sounds like you have to replace Ultras AND Corruptors.
Your explaination had just pieces of the Terran puzzle listed so it was difficult to extract the rest of the composition. No where did it say that he had Ravens, or even Hellions.
But wouldn't your plan also fail if he had even a couple Scans? If he saw the Roaches, I would be hard pressed to believe he wasn't scanning the area to nail such close range Roaches. 
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On June 04 2010 14:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:31 mecra wrote:
So the Terran player didn't have Ravens or Scans or Thors?
While you have a solution, you seem to only have a solution against one type of composition and playstyle: tanks+air. Terran mech I imagine can be more diversified than that even including tanks. My brother plays Terran and he's beaten almost every Zerg opponent he's gone against not even using tanks. He admitted that Zerg don't seem to have a viable anti-mech composition based on his experiences. A Terran admitting this... whoa...
So, while you found a solution, that comp shouldn't be able to be hit assuming the terran is also good at harassment, which mech can also be good at pre-patch.
Too conditional in my mind to really cease the complaint of Terran mech dominance. Er.... did i say i only played vs tank + vikings? no i even said the opposite. BTW the "mech" composition i was testing against was about 10 hellions, 15 vikings 2 ravens 5 thors and 15 tanks. that's about 130 food worth of army, which i'd consider more than a typical terran will employ, but i might be wrong on that point. you send the corruptors in to die and kill off the ravens and then go in with your force. Also i found just attacking this way gets your force killed you kind of have to micro with burrow and your roaches. unburrow get off a volley each then burrow to regen ect. the plan fails when the enemy has mass ravens, i figured the corruptor number is variable to the number of ravens you need to eliminate, but having ALOT of ravens makes the build unfeasible as well as it being easy to split up ravens (IE keep one in the base) and move it over the army after i take out the ones with your army. it's alot less common though so i figured it wasn't a big deal having that as your achilles heel.
Sounds very interesting. Could you post some replays of your success with said strategy?
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On June 04 2010 14:14 guitarizt wrote:
Just tried 35 1/1 roaches with speed against 10 2/0 tanks in unit tester and there's still 7 tanks left against the roaches. The roaches still melt to the tanks. I tried using burrow and tunneling claws and terran still has 3-4 tanks left. You can kill them all if you position the roaches absolutely perfectly but I tried to recreate what would happen in a real game and you're never going to have a perfect position.
I still don't see how zerg is supposed to defend against tanks with anything other than bl's because nothing on the ground can even touch tanks. All terran has to do is get a crit mass of tanks and vikings for bl's and I think if they don't win it's terran's fault at that point because it's impossible to pick off the tanks and harassing their bases at that point is delaying the inevitable. This patch doesn't have an answer to mech for zerg late game although it'll be easier for zerg to win before late game so on paper it might look ok.
So what is your point? As a Zerg you will have your Roaches back in 27 seconds ... ALL OF THEM, while the Terran needs 45 seconds for one in each of his factories. I doubt there are 10 factories around to replenish everything in one go.
Please keep your race-mechanics in mind before posting such comparisons, because it is utterly ridiculous how Zerg are able to replenish a 200/200 army in one go, while the other two races are limited by the number of their MULTIPLE production facilities of several types.
On June 04 2010 14:06 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:03 iEchoic wrote:
I fail to see how mutas don't work vs terran mech. I think that a majority of Zerg players make the following mistakes with their mutas:
1) They directly engage multiple thors
2) They are afraid of killing missile turrets (more on this below)
3) When the opponent's army attacks, they run back and fight it
The conclusion I came to from testing was that Mutas are the answer to terran Mech. If the Terran player attacks, just have a base race. You will both end up losing your base, but the mutas can fly around the map preventing terran from expoing while zerg can continue to expo and stay alive while thors are too slow to prevent it.
Zerg players throw a panic fit when the Terran places missile turrets and then attacks. Once you get 6+ mutas, you can drop missile turrets without a scratch. Just drop the turrets. Zerg players are WAY too scared of missile turrets.
You can win a fight vs mutas with thors but if the fight doesn't occur that advantage is completely negated. plz show us REPLAY of you killing mech terran with mutas, seriously DO IT and you will see by yourself.
Why in the world would you try it with mutas? Because Brood Lords didnt exist in SC1? Air is the way to go if you want to kill Terran mech, but not Mutas. You need to remove the spotters for the tanks in any case, so Corruptors are required and its only a small step to having a few Brood Lords then. IdrA showed how few BLs you actually need, so dont start about cost.
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On June 04 2010 14:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:31 mecra wrote:
So the Terran player didn't have Ravens or Scans or Thors?
While you have a solution, you seem to only have a solution against one type of composition and playstyle: tanks+air. Terran mech I imagine can be more diversified than that even including tanks. My brother plays Terran and he's beaten almost every Zerg opponent he's gone against not even using tanks. He admitted that Zerg don't seem to have a viable anti-mech composition based on his experiences. A Terran admitting this... whoa...
So, while you found a solution, that comp shouldn't be able to be hit assuming the terran is also good at harassment, which mech can also be good at pre-patch.
Too conditional in my mind to really cease the complaint of Terran mech dominance. Er.... did i say i only played vs tank + vikings? no i even said the opposite. BTW the "mech" composition i was testing against was about 10 hellions, 15 vikings 2 ravens 5 thors and 15 tanks. that's about 130 food worth of army, which i'd consider more than a typical terran will employ, but i might be wrong on that point. you send the corruptors in to die and kill off the ravens and then go in with your force. Also i found just attacking this way gets your force killed you kind of have to micro with burrow and your roaches. unburrow get off a volley each then burrow to regen ect. the plan fails when the enemy has mass ravens, i figured the corruptor number is variable to the number of ravens you need to eliminate, but having ALOT of ravens makes the build unfeasible as well as it being easy to split up ravens (IE keep one in the base) and move it over the army after i take out the ones with your army. it's alot less common though so i figured it wasn't a big deal having that as your achilles heel.
I want to believe it works but there's no way unless I see a rep. I tried this in unit tester and while it's not the perfect setting, trying to micro the roaches and get them to pick off the tanks is like throwing paper into a fire. It's also not cost effective to take out the ravens with corrupters if there's that many vikings around. Even if this is viable terran can just scan the roaches if he loses his ravens and that's the end of that.
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On June 04 2010 14:40 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:36 lord_0siris wrote:On June 04 2010 13:59 IdrA wrote:
you people act like its hard to test something like this thoroughly..
tanks obliterate everything except roaches, kind of, on the ground and sensor towers make any kind of drop, nydus, harass-based play worthless. doesnt give you many options, you figure out that overwhelming them with roaches is impractical, ultras still suck, mutas can run around being gay but ultimately you're gonna have to deal with an army that... you cant deal with, and pdd + vikings > heavy air.
the only way to win was to either have your opponent not execute it correctly, either in terms of mechanics or not using sensor towers or ravens, or to simply be way better than them. Excuuusse me? "You people"? What do you mean "you people"? ... the people who are acting like its hard to test something like this thoroughly you know the words right after "you people"
IdrA you know casual players can't balance the game or even test it correctly. I include myself in the casual group along with most diamond league players or anyone who doesn't play competitively in tournaments, leagues etc.
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EPT
