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On June 04 2010 22:02 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time. They've said that they wanted the game to be balanced on all levels, in the past. Maybe there is a counter for professional-level gaming, but I think that the problem lies (or used to lie) in the casual gamer range. Let's say in the 60-70 APM range and without a deep knowledge of terran (of course, against a 60-70 APM opponent who doesn't have a deep knowledge of zerg, either).
This is a good point. Even if the matchup is balanced at high levels as TLO says it is, I think things can be quite different at low and mid level play where most of the playerbase is. The slow, defensive, and reactionary nature of terran mech means it has a much lower APM requirement to play effectively. So at 50 APM, you can play a pretty strong mech game. In contrast, zerg requires more multibase play with lots of drops, nydus, and harass, which requires a pretty hefty APM. So for zerg, 50 APM is going to going to result in a much weaker game. I think this might be the reason for some of the disconnect between average players and high-level players such as TLO.
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On June 04 2010 23:47 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 22:02 Meff wrote:Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time. They've said that they wanted the game to be balanced on all levels, in the past. Maybe there is a counter for professional-level gaming, but I think that the problem lies (or used to lie) in the casual gamer range. Let's say in the 60-70 APM range and without a deep knowledge of terran (of course, against a 60-70 APM opponent who doesn't have a deep knowledge of zerg, either). This is a good point. Even if the matchup is balanced at high levels as TLO says it is, I think things can be quite different at low and mid level play where most of the playerbase is. The slow, defensive, and reactionary nature of terran mech means it has a much lower APM requirement to play effectively. So at 50 APM, you can play a pretty strong mech game. In contrast, zerg requires more multibase play with lots of drops, nydus, and harass, which requires a pretty hefty APM. So for zerg, 50 APM is going to going to result in a much weaker game. I think this might be the reason for some of the disconnect between average players and high-level players such as TLO.
Sure. Skill follows a normal distribution. Meaning, there are a few who suck really hard, and a few who rule. The majority of players is somewhere in between.
People like Idra are right when they say the game is balanced if a certain strategy can be countered on the top level (read: by people like him). However, the question is, if pro-level balance is the only thing Blizzard should go for. eSports needs an audience. Without it no sponsor is going to invest money in tournaments etc. Now, imagine how beneficial a game would be for eSports if only high-skilled players would find it balanced? If you can't get the newbs to play (and enjoy) the game who'll end up with a competitive game that noone will bother to learn, because its no fun from the get-go.
But this is too much OT now, sry, but what the heck 
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 04 2010 21:09 MorroW wrote:
mech wasnt that imba before, i think it was pretty fair but the majority of maps in the mappool will always lean towards terran just like desert oasis like maps will always lean towards the zerg in favor
i think the change was pretty fair but very unlogical
this patch will not make it impossible for terran to win like many ppl have said but it will make it slightly harder
im ok with this patch but i disagree not giving the siege tank 40+20 dmg vs armored instead of now giving it straight up -10 dmg
i still really hold my thumbs for a banshee(nerf) and marauder(nerf) and baneling(stronger but die upon death instead of explode) so bio will be possible again and also so baneling micro would be hard to master. also hoping for a raven remake on the raven missile so it actually is worth upgrading. atm the drone is far better than the missile imo
cheaper carrier tech, bc range buff would also be things id approve of to see alittle more unit variety
i really think blizzard are giving us too many patches atm, they rnt giving us proper time to experiment and figure out whats imba before they make these rational decisions, like the hellion nerf now was completely uncalled for
edit: oh sorry thought this was the patch discussion thread :p i guess some of it is relevant tho )
Excellent post :C Only thing I'm unsure about is the 40+20 for siege tanks, but I guess that would make zealots better TvP which is ok since they kinda suck right now (hellions own them, tanks own them....).
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely.
First you complain about people not listening to high level players, then you complain about people treating TLO (high level player) like he's... good at SC2? I don't get this post.
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On June 05 2010 01:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely. First you complain about people not listening to high level players, then you complain about people treating TLO (high level player) like he's... good at SC2? I don't get this post.
The contradiction is going to make my head explode!
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On June 05 2010 01:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely. First you complain about people not listening to high level players, then you complain about people treating TLO (high level player) like he's... good at SC2? I don't get this post.
I think he means that people treat TLO as better than every other player. Like how a bunch of people applauded TLO for that post where he said he'd play any Terran to show that mech isn't imbalanced, but when drewbie said he'd play any Zerg to show mech IS imbalanced 20 pages ago it gets overlooked :p
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On June 04 2010 21:09 MorroW wrote:
mech wasnt that imba before, i think it was pretty fair but the majority of maps in the mappool will always lean towards terran just like desert oasis like maps will always lean towards the zerg in favor
i think the change was pretty fair but very unlogical
this patch will not make it impossible for terran to win like many ppl have said but it will make it slightly harder
im ok with this patch but i disagree not giving the siege tank 40+20 dmg vs armored instead of now giving it straight up -10 dmg
i still really hold my thumbs for a banshee(nerf) and marauder(nerf) and baneling(stronger but die upon death instead of explode) so bio will be possible again and also so baneling micro would be hard to master. also hoping for a raven remake on the raven missile so it actually is worth upgrading. atm the drone is far better than the missile imo
cheaper carrier tech, bc range buff would also be things id approve of to see alittle more unit variety
i really think blizzard are giving us too many patches atm, they rnt giving us proper time to experiment and figure out whats imba before they make these rational decisions, like the hellion nerf now was completely uncalled for
edit: oh sorry thought this was the patch discussion thread :p i guess some of it is relevant tho )
i think the mech nerf was pretty justified but those would all be good changes, especially the baneling one
though if you nerf marauders and banelings the matchup would become really roach centric which tends to be pretty boring
and they need to do somethin about frenzy, either make it more mana and aoe or just get rid of it and put the infested back on infestors
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On June 05 2010 01:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:09 MorroW wrote:
mech wasnt that imba before, i think it was pretty fair but the majority of maps in the mappool will always lean towards terran just like desert oasis like maps will always lean towards the zerg in favor
i think the change was pretty fair but very unlogical
this patch will not make it impossible for terran to win like many ppl have said but it will make it slightly harder
im ok with this patch but i disagree not giving the siege tank 40+20 dmg vs armored instead of now giving it straight up -10 dmg
i still really hold my thumbs for a banshee(nerf) and marauder(nerf) and baneling(stronger but die upon death instead of explode) so bio will be possible again and also so baneling micro would be hard to master. also hoping for a raven remake on the raven missile so it actually is worth upgrading. atm the drone is far better than the missile imo
cheaper carrier tech, bc range buff would also be things id approve of to see alittle more unit variety
i really think blizzard are giving us too many patches atm, they rnt giving us proper time to experiment and figure out whats imba before they make these rational decisions, like the hellion nerf now was completely uncalled for
edit: oh sorry thought this was the patch discussion thread :p i guess some of it is relevant tho ) i think the mech nerf was pretty justified but those would all be good changes, especially the baneling one though if you nerf marauders and banelings the matchup would become really roach centric which tends to be pretty boring and they need to do somethin about frenzy, either make it more mana and aoe or just get rid of it and put the infested back on infestors
Yeah i miss infested terrans from infestors, they were actually useful then. I wouldn't mind another swap. putting frenzy on overseers (making it 100 energy and AOE)
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On June 04 2010 15:21 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 15:13 KMK wrote:
mech is not imba cause you can't beat it. stop qq'ing about everything you get beat by, figure it out ffs. people are freaking amazing at whining when they lose too shit. rather rage and whine than get better. It's beatable but the way to beat it is stupid atm because zerg has to end the game early by either opening roach and going muta back to roach or opening muta and going roach. We have to rely on stupid tactics like hoping terran screws up and we can drop or nydus them and they lose too much econ while letting us double expo. It reminds me of early beta where all the tosses loved the mid game push because as the game went longer it was hard to beat zerg. They started figuring out how to fast expo but for zerg that doesn't even matter because we can have more bases and I still can't get out enough stuff. If you start out a platinum terran player with 3 bases 20 tanks against a zerg with all his hive tech ready, 5 mins to build and two more expos the terran player will win more even though he's a worse player. That doesn't seem right to me.
you are right. well said.
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Is iCCup tv still going to do the showmatches?
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i respect TLO for creativity and random, but now he falls down in my eyes while he keep saying mech is fine whatever without any proof.
these are just words, words words words from a guy who in addition plays terran in tourneys lately.
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On June 05 2010 04:56 zergporn wrote:
i respect TLO for creativity and random, but now he falls down in my eyes while he keep saying mech is fine whatever without any proof.
these are just words, words words words from a guy who in addition plays terran in tourneys lately.
Just look at the SC2 World Cup final, the best Terrans plaid in it and it still ended up with a Zerg mirror final. And that other Korean tournament plaid 1-2 months ago, TOP3=3 Zergs.
There's nothing to suggest that mech is imba once the Zerg player is thinking further than a moving a bunch of roaches hydra.
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On June 05 2010 04:56 zergporn wrote:
i respect TLO for creativity and random, but now he falls down in my eyes while he keep saying mech is fine whatever without any proof.
these are just words, words words words from a guy who in addition plays terran in tourneys lately.
Well, he's offered to take on any good Terran and beat his mech while playing as Zerg himself. That's why I don't understand why he doesn't just describe his BO/strategy here. If he's going to show it ingame we'll get to see it anyway.
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On June 05 2010 01:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely. First you complain about people not listening to high level players, then you complain about people treating TLO (high level player) like he's... good at SC2? I don't get this post.
who ever said i was "complaining"? i just find it funny ppl agree with TLO purely and only because he is TLO while ignoring any other player that is of equal lvl to him
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On June 05 2010 05:02 nyshak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 04:56 zergporn wrote:
i respect TLO for creativity and random, but now he falls down in my eyes while he keep saying mech is fine whatever without any proof.
these are just words, words words words from a guy who in addition plays terran in tourneys lately. Well, he's offered to take on any good Terran and beat his mech while playing as Zerg himself. That's why I don't understand why he doesn't just describe his BO/strategy here. If he's going to show it ingame we'll get to see it anyway.
the problem with mech is late game
BO is early game
you wont beat mech with some magic BO thats why
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On June 05 2010 05:06 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 01:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely. First you complain about people not listening to high level players, then you complain about people treating TLO (high level player) like he's... good at SC2? I don't get this post. who ever said i was "complaining"? i just find it funny ppl agree with TLO purely and only because he is TLO while ignoring any other player that is of equal lvl to him
What races are these "other players" using ?
100% Zerg huh ?
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On June 05 2010 05:09 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 05:06 Ballistixz wrote:On June 05 2010 01:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:On June 04 2010 16:20 Ballistixz wrote:
i just love how all these gold/silver or lower players that have no idea how certain match ups work are trying to argue against highly reputable and top ranking players in the world. i find that just so damn funny.
also love how some peeps are treating TLO as the chuck norris of SC2. this forums is slowly turning into the official bnet forums. slowly but surely. First you complain about people not listening to high level players, then you complain about people treating TLO (high level player) like he's... good at SC2? I don't get this post. who ever said i was "complaining"? i just find it funny ppl agree with TLO purely and only because he is TLO while ignoring any other player that is of equal lvl to him What races are these "other players" using ? 100% Zerg huh ?
this is exactly my point. artosis and idra are not just any random zerg players.
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Idra beat TLO neatly in the TL altitude invitational with TLO going mech, it was a beautiful game. What was different in this game (the first one)?
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On June 04 2010 23:47 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 22:02 Meff wrote:Please dont rush things, but well blizzard already did. Kinda weird to do it a few days before beta break. I dont think they will get anything out of from it in such a short time. They've said that they wanted the game to be balanced on all levels, in the past. Maybe there is a counter for professional-level gaming, but I think that the problem lies (or used to lie) in the casual gamer range. Let's say in the 60-70 APM range and without a deep knowledge of terran (of course, against a 60-70 APM opponent who doesn't have a deep knowledge of zerg, either). This is a good point. Even if the matchup is balanced at high levels as TLO says it is, I think things can be quite different at low and mid level play where most of the playerbase is. The slow, defensive, and reactionary nature of terran mech means it has a much lower APM requirement to play effectively. So at 50 APM, you can play a pretty strong mech game. In contrast, zerg requires more multibase play with lots of drops, nydus, and harass, which requires a pretty hefty APM. So for zerg, 50 APM is going to going to result in a much weaker game. I think this might be the reason for some of the disconnect between average players and high-level players such as TLO.
I disagree. I think Terran requires much more apm to play effectively. Aside from marines, every terran unit is a hard damage counter to something else, meaning you have to choose who to attack appropriately. Secondly, almost every terran unit has some kind of ability, sometimes many. Spells are in all bio units, except reaper which is so fragile it has to be microed properly. Siege tanks must siege/unsiege. Vikings change mode, Thors have their assault cannons (admitedly really only used for base sieging or countering immortals). Hellions have to line up their splash effectively. banshees are fairly fragile, but do terrible damage, and cloak. Ravens have a million abilities. etc.
Not to mention macroing is much more complicated, as a zerg just needs to strike two keys followed by spamming whatever they want to build. Terran has to have 9 hotkeys for each addon/building combo, or attempt to tab through when building.
IMO, this makes Terran overpowered at the high level, and even at lower levels. (Because blizzard appears to have been balancing on mid-range player skill for the most part)
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EPT
