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It's actually quite problematic in itself that in e-sports someone actually 'owns' the game (unlike sports) and the game companies of course have different objectives then for example a gaming league.
Theoretically we can have SC2 now for say 5-6 years then Blizzard finishes developing SC3 and it turns out to be the biggest piece of shit game ever for competetive gaming. Blizzard still would probably say 'Hey you wanna run SC2 tourneys then you better pay XXX,XXX something ridiculous or we won't negotiate a new contract' to force the leagues to switch over to their new game (which in turn "forces" alot of players to do so).
Actually as I wrote that I realized that's basically what they're doing right now with BW and SC2.
No game companies having this influence over competetive gaming is just not healthy it would be best if IPR laws made it so the leagues could just pick and choose between whatever games they wanted (which in extension is what people want to compete in and watch).
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I forgot MLG started up again this year (after a year long~ hiatus) but I seem to remember the costs for WoW at such events as MLG being so high it stopped other interested parties in starting these things up.
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On May 27 2010 21:19 Boonbag wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 27 2010 21:14 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:+ Show Spoiler + So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club. The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist. Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players. ( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
i don't necessarily disagree with any of this. however, it would be foolish to assume that these companies would burn money for nearly a decade on a venture that did not provide any return on investment. Show nested quote + Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno). there are a couple reasons why this makes sense. 1) teams have a chance to win many times their entrance fee 2) it increases brand marketing for team sponsors whether or not the teams themselves are actually profitable, the company itself is probably seeing enough positive change in sales while sponsoring the team to keep sponsoring them. Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler + That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players. again i can't say anything about this. Show nested quote + What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ? your premise is fine but your conclusion is suspect. you say that proteams finance leagues partially, i can accept that. there has to be some give and take on that end but the main point is that team sponsors are getting advertising / exposure in return for keeping these teams going. spending (let's just assume) $1 million on sponsoring a team and getting air time 5 days a week almost year round seems like a better proposition than spending $1 million for a 1 minute commercial. some people don't get this though and assume kespa does this out of love for esports or something similar and it skews their views on this topic. as for whether or not blizzard can or can not tell kespa they can't broadcast without consent. it's the very same reason why some channel outside korea can't just tape OSL / MBC starleagues and run them without paying. OSL / MBC aren't necessarily losing money by allowing them to do so but most people don't sit well when people are using their work to make money and aren't receiving fair compensation in return. The money gain/ saving they were making through esport advertisement was calculated and actually published and posted a few years back on Team liquid. And a team can't win mutiple time its entrance fee dude. The cash prize is very small. I mean, it sounds like you never ever watched pro gaming or know any detail about it. Just search these forums, you'll find plently of information. ???
On December 08 2007 01:04 Daigomi wrote: MSL was 50k last season. OSL was 40k last season. PL was either 80k or 120k last season. you are misunderstanding what i am saying when it comes to profit. whether or not the teams make money directly is not relevant, you can either assume that all these multimillion dollar companies enjoy taking losses sponsoring esports or that they are in fact seeing significant return by doing so. you can't just appeal to you historical knowledge of the progaming scene here, it's not going to cut it. what blizzard is doing is fully within their rights if korean law is anything like us law and the only reason people seem to be thinking otherwise is because they think kespa is some benevolent esports entity that did it for the game (which, if this were true, they would continue support it anyway).
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Basically there are 2 possibilities, either Blizzard's permission is needed to broadcast BW or it isn't.
If it is needed, then KeSPA still has a chance to negotiate a deal with GomTV. Not making such a deal would mean that the entirety of the current BW pro scene is just giving up and holding their breath to see if GomTV will run a BW league so that the players don't have to get "real" jobs. In this case we would either see progaming succeed since there was enough money to pay the legitimate rights holder, or fail because there wasn't. Yes, it would suck that leagues would have to stop because the sponsors wouldn't believe enough in the sport to put up the cash to pay the rights holder. Realistically in that case it would be better to take a step backwards in esports and run it at the scale where it can pay off all its bills.
If Blizzard is just full of hot air and the law doesn't require their permission to run tournaments, all signs point that BW progaming will continue as normal. I don't think this is a likely scenario, as it would mean even less chance of seeing SC2 on Korean TV and less money for Blizzard in every respect, so I bet they have done their research on this matter.
On May 28 2010 01:04 Boonbag wrote: To all of you, happy of this, have fun watching shitty leagues in english, with a shit quality, and shit players that will end up selling hot dogs on the streets once they turn 20.
Sadly, about 80% of pro license holders would make more money doing that.
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On May 28 2010 05:32 bmml wrote: I forgot MLG started up again this year (after a year long~ hiatus) but I seem to remember the costs for WoW at such events as MLG being so high it stopped other interested parties in starting these things up.
Really because I remember following the 2009 tour unless I was just high and thought I was watching it.
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On May 28 2010 05:18 hasuprotoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. Yeah, but the corporations don't necessarily "own" the teams either. Western corporations sponsor a whole bunch of stuff, from NASCAR drivers to NHL teams, NBA teams, etc. If the demand to watch professional sports is there, then companies will want to advertise their product.
Can't you see the difference between those and the SC scene? All 3 of those can exist by selling TV rights to their leagues which is the same thing people are getting worked up about KeSPA trying to sell. Alongside that is gate receipts to events and merchandise. So you have none of those things and only sponsorships as any revenue at all, hence the proteams being owned by them. Unless you are going to get some private rich people willing to own proteams there's literally no other way to do it, at least to create teams to the extent of the current BW ones. Of course there is foreign progame teams but we are not talking anywhere near the same amount of upkeep cost.
I don't think people realize how little money is involved here in contrast with bigger sports. KeSPA have already stated they are willing to pay reasonable royalties to Blizzard for broadcasting, which they did for BW in the past, it was the other requirements that i believe they were not willing to agree to (and judging by the list of demands it was reasonable to reject it).
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On May 28 2010 05:30 Mylin wrote: It's actually quite problematic in itself that in e-sports someone actually 'owns' the game (unlike sports) and the game companies of course have different objectives then for example a gaming league.
Theoretically we can have SC2 now for say 5-6 years then Blizzard finishes developing SC3 and it turns out to be the biggest piece of shit game ever for competetive gaming. Blizzard still would probably say 'Hey you wanna run SC2 tourneys then you better pay XXX,XXX something ridiculous or we won't negotiate a new contract' to force the leagues to switch over to their new game (which in turn "forces" alot of players to do so).
Actually as I wrote that I realized that's basically what they're doing right now with BW and SC2.
No game companies having this influence over competetive gaming is just not healthy it would be best if IPR laws made it so the leagues could just pick and choose between whatever games they wanted (which in extension is what people want to compete in and watch).
I don't think Blizzard is intentionally going out of their way to kill Brood War. Way I saw it KeSPA was going way out of their way to kill SC2 because they couldn't get the same deal they had with BW
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I would say board/card games are a better analogy. You can't play Starcraft without Starcraft, but you can play football with old shoe. Blizzard isn't trying to own the RTS genre, just their brand of RTS.
To me it's the same way the NFL/NBA work. If you don't use their likeness, rebroadcast their games, etc. then play/broadcast football football all you want. People can play/compete with other RTS games. Still, imho sports is a bad analogy.
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and shit players that will end up selling hot dogs on the streets once they turn 20.
already happening.
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On May 28 2010 05:37 TheElitists wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 05:30 Mylin wrote: It's actually quite problematic in itself that in e-sports someone actually 'owns' the game (unlike sports) and the game companies of course have different objectives then for example a gaming league.
Theoretically we can have SC2 now for say 5-6 years then Blizzard finishes developing SC3 and it turns out to be the biggest piece of shit game ever for competetive gaming. Blizzard still would probably say 'Hey you wanna run SC2 tourneys then you better pay XXX,XXX something ridiculous or we won't negotiate a new contract' to force the leagues to switch over to their new game (which in turn "forces" alot of players to do so).
Actually as I wrote that I realized that's basically what they're doing right now with BW and SC2.
No game companies having this influence over competetive gaming is just not healthy it would be best if IPR laws made it so the leagues could just pick and choose between whatever games they wanted (which in extension is what people want to compete in and watch). I don't think Blizzard is intentionally going out of their way to kill Brood War. Way I saw it KeSPA was going way out of their way to kill SC2 because they couldn't get the same deal they had with BW
I don't think this is about wheter you prefer BW or SC2, KeSPA or Blizzard but rather just a problem that game companies basically got all the leverage in matters regarding e-sports and e-sports isn't always their primary concern (while for leagues/proteams and broadcasting companies like MBC and OGN it is cause that's where they make their money).
I hate KeSPA as much as anyone aswell but still what's happening here is not good at all.
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On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away.
You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
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On May 28 2010 05:47 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
Doctor Pepper, Old Spice, and Stride gum have been sponsoring MLG for a while as well, from an organizational standpoint.
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On May 28 2010 05:47 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
Sponsoring is not the same as owning a team. AIG is/was the sponsor of Manchester United, but they do not own the team. Try asking Intel to pay for your clans premises, transport, player wages.
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On May 28 2010 05:47 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
Doesn't that mean $500 a year instead of $30000 a month?
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On May 28 2010 05:47 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
LOL, are you serious? Sustaining a progaming team in Korea costs hundreds of thouusands if not millions of dollars afaik. What the companies you mentioned do is give some hardware or a handful of shirts. T____T
Those two things do not compare.
On May 28 2010 05:37 TheElitists wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 05:30 Mylin wrote: It's actually quite problematic in itself that in e-sports someone actually 'owns' the game (unlike sports) and the game companies of course have different objectives then for example a gaming league.
Theoretically we can have SC2 now for say 5-6 years then Blizzard finishes developing SC3 and it turns out to be the biggest piece of shit game ever for competetive gaming. Blizzard still would probably say 'Hey you wanna run SC2 tourneys then you better pay XXX,XXX something ridiculous or we won't negotiate a new contract' to force the leagues to switch over to their new game (which in turn "forces" alot of players to do so).
Actually as I wrote that I realized that's basically what they're doing right now with BW and SC2.
No game companies having this influence over competetive gaming is just not healthy it would be best if IPR laws made it so the leagues could just pick and choose between whatever games they wanted (which in extension is what people want to compete in and watch). I don't think Blizzard is intentionally going out of their way to kill Brood War. Way I saw it KeSPA was going way out of their way to kill SC2 because they couldn't get the same deal they had with BW
Blizzard wanted those very same terms to apply to BW. Their terms were simply ridiculous. I bet GOMTV agreed to less strict ones (simply for the fact that GOMTV does not own any progaming teams so they cannot give away the ownership to Blizzard...).
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On May 28 2010 05:47 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
How many of those clan members play 12 hours a day, 6 days a week for 4+ years just to make it? Fact is that I don't care about the gamers. Esports isn't about the people who play. Esports is about producing the most exciting and enticing product. If blizzard does something that reduces the quality of the product, I will be against it. If blizzard starts sponsoring real programing houses where players follow a rigorous 12 hour a day, 6 days a week schedule then I welcome them with open arms.
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Fuck SC2. lol. Seriously. Who wants to watch a retarded 1a game that takes so little skill whatsoever?
If SC1 dies I will quit the Starcraft scene for good.
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This reeks of people unable to accept change. Omg, progaming teams/houses might change?!?!?! Blasphemy. How will an e-sport exist without such things?!?!?!?!
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On May 28 2010 05:56 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This reeks of people unable to accept change. Omg, progaming teams/houses might change?!?!?! Blasphemy. How will an e-sport exist without such things?!?!?!?!
Change? How about cease to exist? Stop being dellusional...
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On May 28 2010 05:47 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 03:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Can you imagine a western company ever owning a pro videogame team? It'll never happen. Its so sad it took so long to get where it is today with sponsors to now possibly be thrown away. You mean like Intel, Pepsi and Puma (only to name 3 of many many other western sponsors) that have sponsoring contracts with many clans out there?
not really comparable as said, paying a full team salary, housing and food vs shelling some hardware and perhaps salary for the odd overachiever or two.
On May 28 2010 05:56 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This reeks of people unable to accept change. Omg, progaming teams/houses might change?!?!?! Blasphemy. How will an e-sport exist without such things?!?!?!?!
Well if you kill progaming teams/houses, you'll most likely end up with a scene pretty equivilent to the foregners scene now, aka B-teamers now would be S-class then
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