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Hello everyone ! I would like to know your opinion about using GamePads with custom keys. I think we can not and must not deny future technologies!
I've just made a Poll too, so feel free to Vote for your personal opinion !
Poll: Would you allow using GamePads at Tournaments ?Definitely Not. Everyone must stick with keyboards. (212) 48% Yes. But without Macro allowance. (163) 37% Definitely Yes. Even with Macro usage. (63) 14% 438 total votes Your vote: Would you allow using GamePads at Tournaments ? (Vote): Definitely Yes. Even with Macro usage.
(Vote): Yes. But without Macro allowance.
(Vote): Definitely Not. Everyone must stick with keyboards.
So let's see some ProCon things about GamePads:
Pros:
- Comfortable than a keyboard - Any key on the GamePads can be set up as you wish. Although I think that customizable hotkeys will be included in the final game too.
- Arrangable Ctrl, Shift and Alt keys - Really user friendly way, cause you don't have to press Ctrl key with like your Wrist, that's the most important thing for me in GamePads!
- You can create and use Macros easily with them, that is really positive in a lot of applications, but I think it is not so useful in StarCraft II.
Cons:
- Pre-defined Macros won't get you ahead ! For example a "Shift+B+G" macro will prepare building GateWays for you immediately, BUT you cannot use this chain-macroed key for anything else !!! So in the end it's way better to separate these 3 type of keys from each other !
- You will spend looong hours just to organize your personal key layout !
- Price is higher, than a simple keyboard's like 3-5 times.
The story of my last 5 years with GamePads:
I've been using specific keys for about 5 years. First I've built a structure on my keyboard from Technik Lego for WoW, that was connecting the right side Ctrl, Shift and Alt with my left hand Thumb through axles. This way I could use 123QWEASD and 0 buttons for 4 different roles (Not modified, Ctrl modified, Shift modified and Alt modified), so I could change between 40 hotkeys very rapidly (It helped me to get into the top 3 places in BGs all the time).
About 3 years ago, when I was thinking about patenting this solution, I've discovered, that there was already a few number of GamePads on the market. So I bought Belkin n52Te that time and promised myself, that I'm gonna use that untill Logitech develops it's own version of GamePad(s). Finally we got Logitech G13 on the market.
Pictures about my HomeMade GamePad and one about the G13 can be found here:
- http://www.mypicx.com/05232010/SzaszaG_Home_Made_GamePad_xD/
- and More can be found on the 3rd Page
My point with GamePads is using personally favourable hotkey layouts ! I use keys like:
- Numbers ==> Units and Buildings (10 keys)
- A, H, P ==> Attack, Hold and Patrol (3 keys)
- X, Y, Z ==> Unit's 1st, 2nd and 3rd Special ability (3 keys)
- B and V ==> Open simple and advanced building's menu (2 keys)
- C, D, E, F, G, H, I ==> Select simple and advanced buildings for build (7 keys)
(although I should change "H" key here, but in build menu it does not cross with Hold)
(you can save 1-2 keys here, if you set up buildings for like B-B, B-V, V-B or V-V too)
- C, D, E, F, G, H, I ==> I also use theese keys for training units
There are already approximately 25 keys to layout, but Yet did not count Ctrl, Shift, Esc and F1, although maybe you use Alt, Backspace or Tab too, and finally W for Protoss. Well in the end you get at like 30-35 keys for use !
With a GamePad you usually get like 15-25 keys, so you Must separate the previously mentioned keys to at least 2 parts, and set up another key to switch between them. Personally on G13 I can use Comfortably only like 18 keys from 24 !
My 1st "Layer" contains: 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,0,A,H,P,X,Y,Z,Ctrl,Shift,F1,Esc and W
My 2nd "Layer" contains: 6,9,B,V,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,Ctrl,Shift,F1,Esc and W
All in all GamePads compared to Keyboards are like using a personal Windows Theme instead of Default, that like 95% of the people do. They does not make your gameplay 10 times better and easier, but they make it much more Comfortable, that can mean like 10-20 % in speed (APM) increase.
( Plus don't to forget about people nowadays use Mouses with modifiable buttons, that in the end leads you to the same thing like a GamePad just in a smaller scale ! )
My final Question is: Does using a Logitech G13 mean Third-Party-Tool and can lead to disqualification ?
PS: Sorry in anticipation, if I don't visit the topic frequently, but after I wrote it I must post it up on the Forum to look after your opinion about this theme sometimes.
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If your somebody uses a game-pad that's just binded different, I don't think anybody would care. - But multiple key-presses, such as one key with a recorded macro to hit a key + modifier such as CTRL is cheating. No two ways about that.
As far as rebinding, I'm not sure what the policies of future tourneys will be but I know some locales have fucked up binds and have to use a third party program to rebind to a layout that makes sense.
You can't use weird hardware at "LAN" tournys, but if your just talking about B.net, of course you can use it.
Anyway, when it comes down to it, I don't think anybody would care if you use piano to play, as long as one key press = one key press.
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I've been using specific keys for about 5 years. First I've built a structure on my keyboard from Technik Lego for WoW, that was connecting the right side Ctrl, Shift and Alt with my left hand Thumb through axles. This way I could use 123QWEASD and 0 buttons for 4 different roles (Not modified, Ctrl modified, Shift modified and Alt modified), so I could change between 40 hotkeys very rapidly (It helped me to get into the top 3 places in BGs all the time).
show pics please 
think I would use a gamepad if I had the room for it on my desk ^^
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baeracaed: "One Key Press = One Key Press" policy sounds nice in my opinion too.
Naf: I try to make a picture of that, although with my phone it won't be the best =)
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Pictures of my HomeMade GamePad are attached to the original post now !
Naf I see you live in Denmark, so please message me, if you know some jobs at the LEGO company for a graduating engineer. =)
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Does this mean, that in order to build say a factory you have to press G17 then press a key on the gamepad to switch to second layer and then press G17 (assuming your have both keys set to G17 of course). I actually thought about buying the logi gamepad, but if this is the case then it's horrible imho. If I wanted to build a supply depot by pressing G17 twice in a row on the pad, is that possible or do I have to switch layers in beyween using a third button? I guess what I'm asking is if it's possible to assign more than one key to every G key, if I select a worker and press G17 he would open the advanced buildings menu, if it's a command center that's selected it will call down mule, etc.
Also like you I would be getting this pad because I hate the way Ctrl is placed, it's been placed there for office work purposes, not RTS gaming (the razer guys apparently don't get that). Is it possible to put Ctrl on one of the keys next to the mini joystick?
What would be nice is if Blizzard stopped insisting on doing our hotkeys for us. Let players customize their own hotkeys incl. Ctrl, etc.
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Reply on Daewon's post:
You can assign more keys to a G key only either on different Layers, or if you create a Macro for it, but that won't bring you ahead, just taking the place from other hotkeys.
Ctrl and other keys can be attached to any of the G13 keys, and there is no difference between the 22 G keys and the +2 keys next to the mini-joy.
Basically I use my Left Thumb to change Layers for a long time. On G13 I use the mini-joystick for that purpose (Up and Left both toggle Layer 1, while Down and Right both toggle Layer 2).
So I press like 1-A-2-A-3-A-4-A, after it I hit F1 and get to the idle worker. Then I move my thumb down-right and I press G15+G10+G11 after each other, meaning Shift+B+E(Gateway or StarGate), finally those 3 buttons prepare your selected building for chain production. Although the easiest way to build a Factory for example, I think is also with layer change and pressing V+F after that. After planting the building(s), and sending the worker to gather I move my thumb up-left and can continue Attacking and Microing.
For MULE, Chrono Boost, Mothership, etc. I keep 1 key on the Layer 1 for Main Building(s) and I use X, Y and Z for their Special abilities or worker training. (maybe even A, H and P can be used too here, cause Main buildings cannot usually Attack, Hold or Patrol apart from Planetary Fortress)
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You can use a gamepad if it is: 1 G key to 1 key on the keyboard.
Not 1 G key to = 3aaaaa or 1 G key CTRL+A for example
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Reply on LeX-'s post:
I aggree too with this kind of change.
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On May 24 2010 00:47 LeX- wrote:
You can use a gamepad if it is: 1 G key to 1 key on the keyboard.
Not 1 G key to = 3aaaaa or 1 G key CTRL+A for example When would 3aaaaa ever be a useful macro? And you'll be able to bind hotkey assignments to non-combo buttons in release. So instead of ctrl+1 to set control group 1, you can just bind it to question mark and then remap question mark to something easy to reach.
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On May 24 2010 01:07 Nutshell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 00:47 LeX- wrote:
You can use a gamepad if it is: 1 G key to 1 key on the keyboard.
Not 1 G key to = 3aaaaa or 1 G key CTRL+A for example When would 3aaaaa ever be a useful macro? And you'll be able to bind hotkey assignments to non-combo buttons in release. So instead of ctrl+1 to set control group 1, you can just bind it to question mark and then remap question mark to something easy to reach.
You're right, But if you make a "Ctrl+1" macro for a G key, after that you still don't even got a key for Ctrl, and not any key for recalling control group 1 either ! (If you press it twice it will just set contol group 1 twice)
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Well even binding a single 3a is still illegal, this saves you one key press every time you wish to make this unit.
Despite them being somewhat useless, they are still illegal.
Your example of CTRL+1 or your Control Group 1 function... you change that like what... 2-3 MAX per game (Most much less), so it's not something I would consider useful to bind anyway.
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I've just made a Poll, so feel free to Vote for your personal opinion.
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On May 24 2010 01:20 LeX- wrote:
Your example of CTRL+1 or your Control Group 1 function... you change that like what... 2-3 MAX per game (Most much less), so it's not something I would consider useful to bind anyway. i was just showing that macroing control group assignment hotkeys isn't an advantage because you can achieve the same thing w/o macros.
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OFF: I'm just gonna write this post to get on the left side bar for 2-3 minutes. So maybe we can get some more Votes before the HDH Invitational starts.
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Just stick with the honourable keyboard. I don't see the point replacing the keyboard.Everyone should play on the same terms, although I wouldn't refuse to play someone who uses a gamepad.
I noticed my post became very ambiguous but allow me to summarize. I don't care if my opponent uses a gamepad, but if I were to choice of allowing or denying the gamepad usage , I would deny. Due to everyone should play with either keyboard or gamepad.
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Thanks for the explanation about your opinion Saggi ! I'm looking forward to read other people's opinions too about this theme.
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I think an important point is missing here. I would never use a gamepad for actual normal play, but I probably would use one for custom game play. By that I mean a lot of custom games seem to have awkward mouselook features. Take a side scrolling shooter for example. 8-way directional shot is kind of awkward with a mouse and keyboard. To me, playing something like Robotron feels more natural with a controller than it does with a keyboard. In that case a controller would be optimal to use, I think, but definitely NOT for regular melee play.
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i think alot of people need thier account banned for doing this. has it is right now starcraft players are horribly imba!!!!
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On May 24 2010 04:50 charlie420247 wrote:
i think alot of people need thier account banned for doing this. has it is right now starcraft players are horribly imba!!!!
I don't think there are more than 5% of the Players, who use GamePads for StarCraft. Due to it's price and the lack of knowledge and commercials about it.
Plus Skill and Knowlegde about the Game cannot be compared with some simplified Key layout.
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EPT
