Hello everyone ! I would like to know your opinion about using GamePads with custom keys. I think we can not and must not deny future technologies!
I've just made a Poll too, so feel free to Vote for your personal opinion !
Poll: Would you allow using GamePads at Tournaments ?
Definitely Not. Everyone must stick with keyboards. (212)
48%
Yes. But without Macro allowance. (163)
37%
Definitely Yes. Even with Macro usage. (63)
14%
438 total votes
Your vote: Would you allow using GamePads at Tournaments ?
(Vote): Definitely Yes. Even with Macro usage. (Vote): Yes. But without Macro allowance. (Vote): Definitely Not. Everyone must stick with keyboards.
So let's see some ProCon things about GamePads:
Pros:
- Comfortable than a keyboard - Any key on the GamePads can be set up as you wish. Although I think that customizable hotkeys will be included in the final game too. - Arrangable Ctrl, Shift and Alt keys - Really user friendly way, cause you don't have to press Ctrl key with like your Wrist, that's the most important thing for me in GamePads! - You can create and use Macros easily with them, that is really positive in a lot of applications, but I think it is not so useful in StarCraft II.
Cons:
- Pre-defined Macros won't get you ahead ! For example a "Shift+B+G" macro will prepare building GateWays for you immediately, BUT you cannot use this chain-macroed key for anything else !!! So in the end it's way better to separate these 3 type of keys from each other ! - You will spend looong hours just to organize your personal key layout ! - Price is higher, than a simple keyboard's like 3-5 times.
The story of my last 5 years with GamePads: I've been using specific keys for about 5 years. First I've built a structure on my keyboard from Technik Lego for WoW, that was connecting the right side Ctrl, Shift and Alt with my left hand Thumb through axles. This way I could use 123QWEASD and 0 buttons for 4 different roles (Not modified, Ctrl modified, Shift modified and Alt modified), so I could change between 40 hotkeys very rapidly (It helped me to get into the top 3 places in BGs all the time). About 3 years ago, when I was thinking about patenting this solution, I've discovered, that there was already a few number of GamePads on the market. So I bought Belkin n52Te that time and promised myself, that I'm gonna use that untill Logitech develops it's own version of GamePad(s). Finally we got Logitech G13 on the market.
My point with GamePads is using personally favourable hotkey layouts ! I use keys like: - Numbers ==> Units and Buildings (10 keys) - A, H, P ==> Attack, Hold and Patrol (3 keys) - X, Y, Z ==> Unit's 1st, 2nd and 3rd Special ability (3 keys) - B and V ==> Open simple and advanced building's menu (2 keys) - C, D, E, F, G, H, I ==> Select simple and advanced buildings for build (7 keys) (although I should change "H" key here, but in build menu it does not cross with Hold) (you can save 1-2 keys here, if you set up buildings for like B-B, B-V, V-B or V-V too) - C, D, E, F, G, H, I ==> I also use theese keys for training units
There are already approximately 25 keys to layout, but Yet did not count Ctrl, Shift, Esc and F1, although maybe you use Alt, Backspace or Tab too, and finally W for Protoss. Well in the end you get at like 30-35 keys for use !
With a GamePad you usually get like 15-25 keys, so you Must separate the previously mentioned keys to at least 2 parts, and set up another key to switch between them. Personally on G13 I can use Comfortably only like 18 keys from 24 ! My 1st "Layer" contains: 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,0,A,H,P,X,Y,Z,Ctrl,Shift,F1,Esc and W My 2nd "Layer" contains: 6,9,B,V,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,Ctrl,Shift,F1,Esc and W
All in all GamePads compared to Keyboards are like using a personal Windows Theme instead of Default, that like 95% of the people do. They does not make your gameplay 10 times better and easier, but they make it much more Comfortable, that can mean like 10-20 % in speed (APM) increase. ( Plus don't to forget about people nowadays use Mouses with modifiable buttons, that in the end leads you to the same thing like a GamePad just in a smaller scale ! )
My final Question is: Does using a Logitech G13 mean Third-Party-Tool and can lead to disqualification ?
PS: Sorry in anticipation, if I don't visit the topic frequently, but after I wrote it I must post it up on the Forum to look after your opinion about this theme sometimes.
If your somebody uses a game-pad that's just binded different, I don't think anybody would care. - But multiple key-presses, such as one key with a recorded macro to hit a key + modifier such as CTRL is cheating. No two ways about that.
As far as rebinding, I'm not sure what the policies of future tourneys will be but I know some locales have fucked up binds and have to use a third party program to rebind to a layout that makes sense.
You can't use weird hardware at "LAN" tournys, but if your just talking about B.net, of course you can use it.
Anyway, when it comes down to it, I don't think anybody would care if you use piano to play, as long as one key press = one key press.
I've been using specific keys for about 5 years. First I've built a structure on my keyboard from Technik Lego for WoW, that was connecting the right side Ctrl, Shift and Alt with my left hand Thumb through axles. This way I could use 123QWEASD and 0 buttons for 4 different roles (Not modified, Ctrl modified, Shift modified and Alt modified), so I could change between 40 hotkeys very rapidly (It helped me to get into the top 3 places in BGs all the time).
show pics please think I would use a gamepad if I had the room for it on my desk ^^
baeracaed: "One Key Press = One Key Press" policy sounds nice in my opinion too. Naf: I try to make a picture of that, although with my phone it won't be the best =)
Pictures of my HomeMade GamePad are attached to the original post now ! Naf I see you live in Denmark, so please message me, if you know some jobs at the LEGO company for a graduating engineer. =)
Does this mean, that in order to build say a factory you have to press G17 then press a key on the gamepad to switch to second layer and then press G17 (assuming your have both keys set to G17 of course). I actually thought about buying the logi gamepad, but if this is the case then it's horrible imho. If I wanted to build a supply depot by pressing G17 twice in a row on the pad, is that possible or do I have to switch layers in beyween using a third button? I guess what I'm asking is if it's possible to assign more than one key to every G key, if I select a worker and press G17 he would open the advanced buildings menu, if it's a command center that's selected it will call down mule, etc.
Also like you I would be getting this pad because I hate the way Ctrl is placed, it's been placed there for office work purposes, not RTS gaming (the razer guys apparently don't get that). Is it possible to put Ctrl on one of the keys next to the mini joystick?
What would be nice is if Blizzard stopped insisting on doing our hotkeys for us. Let players customize their own hotkeys incl. Ctrl, etc.
You can assign more keys to a G key only either on different Layers, or if you create a Macro for it, but that won't bring you ahead, just taking the place from other hotkeys.
Ctrl and other keys can be attached to any of the G13 keys, and there is no difference between the 22 G keys and the +2 keys next to the mini-joy.
Basically I use my Left Thumb to change Layers for a long time. On G13 I use the mini-joystick for that purpose (Up and Left both toggle Layer 1, while Down and Right both toggle Layer 2). So I press like 1-A-2-A-3-A-4-A, after it I hit F1 and get to the idle worker. Then I move my thumb down-right and I press G15+G10+G11 after each other, meaning Shift+B+E(Gateway or StarGate), finally those 3 buttons prepare your selected building for chain production. Although the easiest way to build a Factory for example, I think is also with layer change and pressing V+F after that. After planting the building(s), and sending the worker to gather I move my thumb up-left and can continue Attacking and Microing.
For MULE, Chrono Boost, Mothership, etc. I keep 1 key on the Layer 1 for Main Building(s) and I use X, Y and Z for their Special abilities or worker training. (maybe even A, H and P can be used too here, cause Main buildings cannot usually Attack, Hold or Patrol apart from Planetary Fortress)
On May 24 2010 00:47 LeX- wrote: You can use a gamepad if it is: 1 G key to 1 key on the keyboard.
Not 1 G key to = 3aaaaa or 1 G key CTRL+A for example
When would 3aaaaa ever be a useful macro? And you'll be able to bind hotkey assignments to non-combo buttons in release. So instead of ctrl+1 to set control group 1, you can just bind it to question mark and then remap question mark to something easy to reach.
On May 24 2010 00:47 LeX- wrote: You can use a gamepad if it is: 1 G key to 1 key on the keyboard.
Not 1 G key to = 3aaaaa or 1 G key CTRL+A for example
When would 3aaaaa ever be a useful macro? And you'll be able to bind hotkey assignments to non-combo buttons in release. So instead of ctrl+1 to set control group 1, you can just bind it to question mark and then remap question mark to something easy to reach.
You're right, But if you make a "Ctrl+1" macro for a G key, after that you still don't even got a key for Ctrl, and not any key for recalling control group 1 either ! (If you press it twice it will just set contol group 1 twice)
Well even binding a single 3a is still illegal, this saves you one key press every time you wish to make this unit.
Despite them being somewhat useless, they are still illegal.
Your example of CTRL+1 or your Control Group 1 function... you change that like what... 2-3 MAX per game (Most much less), so it's not something I would consider useful to bind anyway.
On May 24 2010 01:20 LeX- wrote: Your example of CTRL+1 or your Control Group 1 function... you change that like what... 2-3 MAX per game (Most much less), so it's not something I would consider useful to bind anyway.
i was just showing that macroing control group assignment hotkeys isn't an advantage because you can achieve the same thing w/o macros.
OFF: I'm just gonna write this post to get on the left side bar for 2-3 minutes. So maybe we can get some more Votes before the HDH Invitational starts.
Just stick with the honourable keyboard. I don't see the point replacing the keyboard.Everyone should play on the same terms, although I wouldn't refuse to play someone who uses a gamepad. I noticed my post became very ambiguous but allow me to summarize. I don't care if my opponent uses a gamepad, but if I were to choice of allowing or denying the gamepad usage , I would deny. Due to everyone should play with either keyboard or gamepad.
I think an important point is missing here. I would never use a gamepad for actual normal play, but I probably would use one for custom game play. By that I mean a lot of custom games seem to have awkward mouselook features. Take a side scrolling shooter for example. 8-way directional shot is kind of awkward with a mouse and keyboard. To me, playing something like Robotron feels more natural with a controller than it does with a keyboard. In that case a controller would be optimal to use, I think, but definitely NOT for regular melee play.
On May 24 2010 04:50 charlie420247 wrote: i think alot of people need thier account banned for doing this. has it is right now starcraft players are horribly imba!!!!
I don't think there are more than 5% of the Players, who use GamePads for StarCraft. Due to it's price and the lack of knowledge and commercials about it. Plus Skill and Knowlegde about the Game cannot be compared with some simplified Key layout.
I don't use the macro's... I just rebind the keys. Not sure why you would want to use macro's at all. This one is a really old model though been using it for a long long time.
On May 24 2010 05:00 Mastermind wrote: As long as you dont do macros I dont really care if you use this. I wouldn't be surprised if it was banned form tournaments though.
Also, shamelessly bumping your own thread is frowned upon hear at TL.
Excuse me, but I only made 1 "bumping" post before HDH, and I Do Not and Will Not spam like a simple dot in every minutes, just to get the thread up to date.
I think people who are super worried about weather or not superior hardware is cheating should wait to pick up starcraft 2 and play it on the consoles. Anyone who has used these macro keyboards / mouses can tell you that the difference is negligible. Generally the people who will actually benefit from the macro keyboards will be playing in bronze league.
On May 24 2010 05:22 netisopl wrote: Generally the people who will actually benefit from the macro keyboards will be playing in bronze league.
Indeed =) I started at the copper league after my placement matches and I was using the G13 ! It took me a week to get up to the silver league (just before the patch 13 =l) and I can honestly say, that the ingame experience helped me much more to get ahead, than the G13 !
I am hoping someone on this forum can please help me. I have been searching quite a bit for information on using the G-13 w/ Starcraft 2 and have found very little information.
I am positive I can obtain the results I am looking for w/ scripting, but i am not a programmer and this seems to be a bit above my head. If someone can lend me some assistance on the following issues, I would greatly appreciate it!
A) Opener Script : I would like this script to perform the following actions in the start of a game if possible:
0) Select a probe and press "Control+3" to assign to hotkey 3. 1) Select ALL probes and right click on middle mineral patch to begin mining. 2) Select Nexus and press "E" to build my first probe. 3) Select the Nexus and set the middle mineral patch as the rally point. 4) Select the Nexus and press "Control+0" to assign Nexus as hotkey "0". 5) Press "Control+F5" to set the current camera view to my main base.
(I always play as Protoss, so switching to different configurations for different races is NOT an issue for me. This is a pain in the a$$ to do at the beginning of EVERY game and would love to SCRIPT it.)
B) Build Gateway (Or other Building) & Assign Hotkey
1a) Press "3" to select probe hot-keyed from above script. 1b) Or alternately just use the probe currently selected 2) Press "B" then "G" to build a gateway and let me click to select position. 3) Select the new gateway & assign hotkey by pressing "control+9"
(I would like to be able to modify this script code to make other buildings as well and assign a different hotkey to each. For instance I may want to build a Cybercore "C" and assign it to "7". Of course each script will be attached to a separate GXX button on the G13.)
These two things would really help me out quite a bit. Thank you for taking the time to read my message, and no flames please. I simply want to make the gaming experience more pleasurable for myself by reducing repetitive keyboard presses every single game. I am not a professional and do not compete...
These two things would really help me out quite a bit. Thank you for taking the time to read my message, and no flames please. I simply want to make the gaming experience more pleasurable for myself by reducing repetitive keyboard presses every single game. I am not a professional and do not compete...
Now your script is already so close to hacking that its comparable to multiselection hack in bw so even if you're not going to attend any tournaments I really suggest you don't cheat like that in the ladder either as its very, very unfair.
If that is allowed then where do you cross the line? Someone could create a script that does the whole build order for you and does a timing push with perfect micro while you yourself are sipping your god damn coffee. Lets not even start going towards that direction please.
That is a little over board. I am not looking for a script to play the game as I drink coffee. I simply want to make the game more fun and accessible for myself while playing campaigns or against the AI. I am currently in bronze league and have little ambition to play professionally. I work way to much for that and have a wife and 2 kids that take up most of my time. I have very little time to even play games these days, and when i do I would rather not have to worry about assigning hotkeys to every building I make. I am sure you would kick my ass in a 1v1 using macros or not; this is still a game of skill and strategy! I really do not see the big deal, but I do respect your point of view...
Yeah I agree with most of the people in here. I have no issue with a gamepad as long as you bind the keys differently and nothing more. My buddy uses a g13 and he is still just as bad as he would be using a keyboard. It's just more comfortable.
As long as every button is mapped to a single key it shouldn't matter if you're using a keyboard, a G13, a Power Glove, a MIDI keyboard (pointer controlled with pitch and modulation wheels) or what have you.
On May 25 2010 00:13 MovieDude wrote: I am hoping someone on this forum can please help me. I have been searching quite a bit for information on using the G-13 w/ Starcraft 2 and have found very little information.
You can easily make some of your ideas as a Macro, but not everything. You just need to attach a Macro to the selected G-key, and not a simple key. After that you end up at the Macro Creating window. There you can start Recording any keypress-chain. If you finished it, you can add Mouse Clicks too for the Macro, But you cannot eliminate your Mouse Movement by Macros ! So in the end you must send out your first workers to gather by your own mouse.
Although I suggest you just to make a more Comfortable keybind with it. Using like one Layer for Micro and another for Macro.
This is not sc1 ppl will use g15 and it will be supported so macros should be 100% legit. I cant imagine that macroes would be good in sc2 but they sure as hell will be legit.
Obviously opinions on this can be varied, as to the authenticity of gameplay. But in the end, this is a tool available to anyone.
Let me give you an example. I am also a DJ for fun. When people first started dj'ing in the 70's it was all vinyl! When Cd's came out in the 80's, and dj's began to switch from LP to CD, some DJ's would say it's not DJing unless it is on vinyl! Then software like Traktor came out which allows a DJ to play with a laptop and mp3 files. No records or CD's needed. Hell, the software has a built in mixer, so you don't even need any physical hardware! Once again, old school DJ's complained that if it was not LP or CD's you are NOT a DJ.
Well times change, and a tool is a tool. People should be open minded about embracing new tools (hardware) to make a hard job easier for the masses. That's why these tools are made in the first place. Of course if a DJ sucks to begin with, it doesn't matter what format he plays his music on; it will still be crap.
You give to 2 people a mound of clay, and one builds a marble, and the other a detailed statue. Skill is skill and talent is talent regardless of the medium used...
In the end, it's pretty subjective. But just because there was an old way of doing it doesn't make the new way of doing it wrong, it's just a different point of view and still perfectly valid in my mind for those willing to embrace that times have changed and new tools are available to make our lives easier...
Just my 2 cents...
BTW: Tools like Traktor have become the NORM for modern dj's, and most will show up to gigs w/ just a laptop. No more heavy records or bulky cd's to lug around. What was once fround upon has become accepted, and become the new norm. Now there is a larger talent pool out there which brings more diversity, and has overall changed the industry as a whole for the better!
On May 25 2010 00:13 MovieDude wrote: I am hoping someone on this forum can please help me. I have been searching quite a bit for information on using the G-13 w/ Starcraft 2 and have found very little information.
I am positive I can obtain the results I am looking for w/ scripting, but i am not a programmer and this seems to be a bit above my head. If someone can lend me some assistance on the following issues, I would greatly appreciate it!
A) Opener Script : I would like this script to perform the following actions in the start of a game if possible:
0) Select a probe and press "Control+3" to assign to hotkey 3. 1) Select ALL probes and right click on middle mineral patch to begin mining. 2) Select Nexus and press "E" to build my first probe. 3) Select the Nexus and set the middle mineral patch as the rally point. 4) Select the Nexus and press "Control+0" to assign Nexus as hotkey "0". 5) Press "Control+F5" to set the current camera view to my main base.
(I always play as Protoss, so switching to different configurations for different races is NOT an issue for me. This is a pain in the a$$ to do at the beginning of EVERY game and would love to SCRIPT it.)
B) Build Gateway (Or other Building) & Assign Hotkey
1a) Press "3" to select probe hot-keyed from above script. 1b) Or alternately just use the probe currently selected 2) Press "B" then "G" to build a gateway and let me click to select position. 3) Select the new gateway & assign hotkey by pressing "control+9"
(I would like to be able to modify this script code to make other buildings as well and assign a different hotkey to each. For instance I may want to build a Cybercore "C" and assign it to "7". Of course each script will be attached to a separate GXX button on the G13.)
These two things would really help me out quite a bit. Thank you for taking the time to read my message, and no flames please. I simply want to make the gaming experience more pleasurable for myself by reducing repetitive keyboard presses every single game. I am not a professional and do not compete...
No one here will script this for you.
When the game comes out, hopefully all of this will be blocked for ladder play/online play.
On May 25 2010 00:13 MovieDude wrote: I am hoping someone on this forum can please help me. I have been searching quite a bit for information on using the G-13 w/ Starcraft 2 and have found very little information.
I am positive I can obtain the results I am looking for w/ scripting, but i am not a programmer and this seems to be a bit above my head. If someone can lend me some assistance on the following issues, I would greatly appreciate it!
A) Opener Script : I would like this script to perform the following actions in the start of a game if possible:
0) Select a probe and press "Control+3" to assign to hotkey 3. 1) Select ALL probes and right click on middle mineral patch to begin mining. 2) Select Nexus and press "E" to build my first probe. 3) Select the Nexus and set the middle mineral patch as the rally point. 4) Select the Nexus and press "Control+0" to assign Nexus as hotkey "0". 5) Press "Control+F5" to set the current camera view to my main base.
(I always play as Protoss, so switching to different configurations for different races is NOT an issue for me. This is a pain in the a$$ to do at the beginning of EVERY game and would love to SCRIPT it.)
B) Build Gateway (Or other Building) & Assign Hotkey
1a) Press "3" to select probe hot-keyed from above script. 1b) Or alternately just use the probe currently selected 2) Press "B" then "G" to build a gateway and let me click to select position. 3) Select the new gateway & assign hotkey by pressing "control+9"
(I would like to be able to modify this script code to make other buildings as well and assign a different hotkey to each. For instance I may want to build a Cybercore "C" and assign it to "7". Of course each script will be attached to a separate GXX button on the G13.)
These two things would really help me out quite a bit. Thank you for taking the time to read my message, and no flames please. I simply want to make the gaming experience more pleasurable for myself by reducing repetitive keyboard presses every single game. I am not a professional and do not compete...
No one here will script this for you.
When the game comes out, hopefully all of this will be blocked for ladder play/online play.
How do you expect a script to know where the middle mineral patch is, or any mineral patch for that matter? It changes based on map and position... but ya know blizzard really has to ban this sort of macroing!
i see two problems with custom input devices first because the developers didnt take it into consideration it can create imbalances in the game even if both players are using it second if its gonna give u an advantage u pretty much have to buy it (think of the best custom input device as plugging your brain to the pc) dunno if your pad applies to any of this
It's a pretty blurry line between a "keyboard" and a "gamepad". What exactly is the distinction? The number of keys? I'm sure most of us aren't using standard 101 key keyboards anymore, I know mine has a few extra keys. Why should these extra keys be ok but the extra buttons on a gamepad not be? Is it the ability to perform macros? I'm sure you could find a keyboard that can do that, and a gamepad that can't.
My Logitech mouse can perform macros based on button presses. This is the exact same thing on a smaller scale, and much more common these days. Like you said, a gamepad is really just a simplified keyboard. The way a laptop KB has less keys than a full 101 KB on a desktop PC. the gamepad is just more specialized for quick and precise movements...
I voted keyboards, there has to be some kind of standard rules to keep all players 'even' before the game starts. One player who can afford a gamepad facing one who can't would have an unfair advantage. Of course there is the fact to consider that one could use a gamepad in an online tournament and no one would know about it.
I think using mouse macros to put a couple of commands on should be allowed at the players preference as unless you have the Razer Naga I doubt putting a-move and perhaps space bar (jump to last unit/structure/upgrade) would make the given player perform that much faster, it would just be at their preference if they prefer some commands on the mouse.
A full-out gamepad like the Belkin Nostramo however, no I do not think those should be permitted.
And for anyone who is interested here's what I did in WoW (keyboard).
1,2,3,4,R,T,Y,F,G,H,V,B,N as spell/action bar hotkeys (class Mage) All the commands such as 'C' to open character, 'B' to open bag and so on bound to Numpad QWEASD for moving/side-stepping, ZXC unbound and used as necessary.
This topic showed me, that there are much more Variations between Keyboards, Mouses and Gamepads too. I share with you the categories, I could came up with untill now. Let me now if there is something I forgot about.
Keys: 1) Simple 101key Keyboard 2) Keyboards with Bindable extra buttons 3) Keyboards with Macro buttons 4) Gamepads/Gameboards with Bindable and also Macro ready buttons
Mouses: 1) Simple 2 button Mouse 2) Mouses with Bindable extra buttons 3) Mouses with Macro buttons 4) Maybe some electronic Pens or Touchpads, but I don't really know much about these things yet
On May 24 2010 04:50 charlie420247 wrote: i think alot of people need thier account banned for doing this. has it is right now starcraft players are horribly imba!!!!
If not troll, strategy is far more important than any benefit this would give anyway.
We're talking about tournament level, where the skill difference between players is much lower and every edge they can find counts.
From an admin's perspective, this should be banned.
If several people bring gamepads to a tournament, admins have to go through and check each binding. That's an absolute nightmare for local events, and potentially international LAN comps too.
From a player's perspective, it's only fair if everyone has the same access to the macros. Everyone has access to a keyboard and mouse, but gamepads or expensive keyboards or mice with in-built macros? Not necessarily.
And while they seem useless now, there is always the chance someone will find a way to make them extremely useful.
On May 23 2010 21:20 SzaszaG wrote: Pictures of my HomeMade GamePad are attached to the original post now ! Naf I see you live in Denmark, so please message me, if you know some jobs at the LEGO company for a graduating engineer. =)
On May 23 2010 21:20 SzaszaG wrote: Pictures of my HomeMade GamePad are attached to the original post now ! Naf I see you live in Denmark, so please message me, if you know some jobs at the LEGO company for a graduating engineer. =)
Because every dane has a connection to lego? Wtf?
Excuse me, if I had hurt you with this. I was in the weeks of Graduating, so I meant it like a joke, and not an Offense ! =)
On July 04 2010 23:58 k!llua wrote: From an admin's perspective, this should be banned.
If several people bring gamepads to a tournament, admins have to go through and check each binding. That's an absolute nightmare for local events, and potentially international LAN comps too.
From a player's perspective, it's only fair if everyone has the same access to the macros. Everyone has access to a keyboard and mouse, but gamepads or expensive keyboards or mice with in-built macros? Not necessarily.
And while they seem useless now, there is always the chance someone will find a way to make them extremely useful.
So yeh, ban it.
You know I had the same views, but then again admins really wouldn't need to check every single keystroke for "illegal macros" pre-match. Most of the time there are people viewing the players actually playing and if someone notices that 1 button does several things they should be disqualified. I personally use a customizable keyboard that I have changed the key positioning for every race just so it's easier for me to remember (ie D produces probes, drones, and scvs). Now I'm far from being at a competitive level, but I would be really upset if I couldn't use my keyboard because others want to cheat. Then again I guess you could argue I'm handicapping myself by doing that lol
I've got a simple 101 key keyboard and a 2 button mouse, i believe anything involving macro buttons is unfair and should be banned. However rebinding is fine, because anybody should be able to do it.
Also I've had a G13 for less than a month for other games. It's nice when your wrists bother you from typing for long periods of time, but using it to play SC2 is almost impossible. There just aren't enough buttons. I've uploaded my pics from my SC2 notebook (yeah I have a notebook lol) of my crappy setup on it. I setup the joystick as the directional keys to scan the screen easier.
I think gamepads should be allowed, definitely, once again with the provision that one keypress = one keypress.
The problem, however, starts when you want to enforce this rule. If people are bringing all kinds of exotic input devices to a LAN tourney and using their own keymaps, how are you ever going to check no one is using macros?
For keyboards it's relatively simple to spot. Just watch if what their fingers do on the keyboard matches what happens on the screen. With these odd devices, however? Not so sure.
I think it should be fair game to use them in environments like these, but I can't really see it happening anytime soon. Not unless you're playing on controlled systems and the device in question doesn't have any internal settings memory (that would allow you to use macros even without drivers/config software installed)
Hotkeys Can Not be Modified in the Final version !!! Surprise from Blizzard =/ I don't know how could they Release the Game without that feature... I hope we will get the SC2Tools for the Released version too Really Soon =)
though i like new hardware and fancy stuff (and spending money on it) i dont have any gamepad.
Honestly its like bringing a Gun to a Knife fight. Nothing fair cool or honest with it.
Besides that such a Device usually takes over large chunks of the game for you (ok, mostly the macro shit here). Im not eager to get games which i dont play by myself for 100%.
If you have no skill etc. you can have a Gamepad of course to keep the pace with the others xD
I've just red it on a Tournament's page, that you can use your Keyboard and Mouse at it. I hope that for example a G13 is not "illegal" this way, cause today's Special-Keyboards do like the same things. You can even use macros with them (that I specially think is Useless in StarCraft II)
Are Gamepads like the G13 considered illegal if I were to go play an MLG event? Not that I will get to, but one can dream. I understand about scripting, but what is the official word? I use it for the comfort factor, and if you have looked into one the bindings are pretty much similar to utilizing a keyboard except it puts your hand in a more ergonomic layout. I am honestly toying with going back to a keyboard because I think I am actually quicker on a keyboard, but I would prefer to use gamepad like the G13 if I can get as good as with a keyboard.
Also, the only advantage I possibly see is the joystick being utilized to adjust screen location, and it is arguably neglible as I have been teaching myself to utilize minimap for screen adjustment. Otherwise, the game pad is essentially a keyboard as long as you arent macro scripting.
i dont know why people think macros give someone an advantage. The reason Nada or whomever has 400 apm not because they need 400 apm but because the only way to stay fast is to be warmed up through out the entire game. Having 1 button to hit to do multiple actions will just hinder ur ability to micro.
Maybe not at top tier Diamond, but if someone macro'd a button to bounce through all their production facilities and queue one worker/infantry/air. Then I could see that being a big boon to a many levels of skill.
That said we are splitting hairs I think. I just like to use the game pad, and was wondering about tournaments as I would like to play in tournaments one day. It doesn't seem to be adressed in most rules that I have looked at.
On August 31 2010 10:05 Moves wrote: Just looked at your lego pics for your key interface. Pretty ingenious, I love seeing what the imagination can devise.
Thanks man =) More pictures of it can be found on the 3rd Page.
I think alot of people are just afraid that somehow you are gonna use macro bindings or what have you and thus, are not reading what you are saying. Anyhow, please post a video of you playing a game on a gamepad..PLEASE.
I consider it cheating. They would never let you use that at any LAN or competition. Everyone should be using the same hardware so everything is even. Nuff said
On September 01 2010 00:24 MarwanBaki wrote: I think alot of people are just afraid that somehow you are gonna use macro bindings or what have you and thus, are not reading what you are saying. Anyhow, please post a video of you playing a game on a gamepad..PLEASE.
Good Idea ! I will look after, if I can get a camera for this. Maybe I'm gonna make a YouTube VOD about my Basic Key Setup and the Switching of Layers, plus some Ingame usage of the GamePad.
(Although I got 600+ in Diamond with my Alt, I still make just about 80+ APM average. So I don't use GamePad to get Insane APM, or to make any Macro. It's just Much More Comfortable for me, and I got used to it So Much, that I just cannot start it over on a Keyboard, where the Columns are not Vertical...)
This question is not for the Later plans, but to Know, how much people are Competent in Voting. Cause it's weird to get a lot of Negative Votes from People, who haven't Ever used the thing they are voting bad...
Although I'm glad if people will try to use them from now on, cause the World is Moving =)
Hey folks - not sure if I'll get warned/purged/prosecuted for putting in my 2 bits about my experience with the g13 - but here goes!
I've been using the G13 since November '10 and I have tried a number of different setups. At the beginning it was actually only detrimental until I stumbled across a [popular social media site] video by a guy I think is named thethinkinggamer. He pointed out how he put his sc profile on grid and after deciphering his close up on the montior showing his layout I put it on mine. After about a month of playing I tweaked it slightly and I have a hard time going back to a keyboard now. I'll do my best to describe the setup below starting from the top row to bottom with each key separated by hyphens.
BckSpace - Tab - Q - W - E - R - T Space - 3 - A - S - D - F - G Shift - C - V - B - 8 Cntrl - F1 - T
Left of joystick button: Z (Ability 1 & basic building) Below joystick button: X (Ability 2 & advanced) Left / up / right / down of joystick: 5, 6, 7, 4 Joystick pushed down button: T
Cntl Group config: 1 / 2 / 3: hatch 1/ hatch 2/ hatch 3 4: all queens + all tech buildings 5: army 1 (usually lings) 6: army 2 (usually muta/roaches/hydras) 7: army 3 (Infestors) 8: ground scout 9: active tumours 0: overseer
I have a coolmaster sentry mouse with 4 programmable buttons that I put 1 / 2 / 3 & 0 (I turn screen scrolling off and I binded the mouse button to a side button for easy panning of the screen - another technique that hurt my play for about a month before I began to benefit from having zero screen scrolling)
Immediately after the purchase I'll admit I was worried I wouldn't find a good sc2 use for it, but these days I can't play without it. I experimented with macro loops for auto-droning and auto-pumping lings but this only causes huge gaps to show up in your play so don't bother. I do not recommend it, regardless of its' legal outlook. It just encourages sloppy play. I notice the original poster mentioned that they need more than one layer of commands to make the g13 work for them. I find this setup is ideal because it allows one to use every function on a single layer.
I realize the layout depiction may be hard to read but i wrote this on my iPhone so I hope it makes sense and that I'm not breaking any rules by bumping the subject - I just really wanted to share this bc it makes this game so much more comfortable to play with every action a twitch away.
On June 10 2011 05:30 karatedave wrote: Hey folks - not sure if I'll get warned/purged/prosecuted for putting in my 2 bits about my experience with the g13 - but here goes!
I've been using the G13 since November '10 and I have tried a number of different setups. At the beginning it was actually only detrimental until I stumbled across a [popular social media site] video by a guy I think is named thethinkinggamer. He pointed out how he put his sc profile on grid and after deciphering his close up on the montior showing his layout I put it on mine. After about a month of playing I tweaked it slightly and I have a hard time going back to a keyboard now. I'll do my best to describe the setup below starting from the top row to bottom with each key separated by hyphens.
BckSpace - Tab - Q - W - E - R - T Space - 3 - A - S - D - F - G Shift - C - V - B - 8 Cntrl - F1 - T
Left of joystick button: Z (Ability 1 & basic building) Below joystick button: X (Ability 2 & advanced) Left / up / right / down of joystick: 5, 6, 7, 4 Joystick pushed down button: T
Cntl Group config: 1 / 2 / 3: hatch 1/ hatch 2/ hatch 3 4: all queens + all tech buildings 5: army 1 (usually lings) 6: army 2 (usually muta/roaches/hydras) 7: army 3 (Infestors) 8: ground scout 9: active tumours 0: overseer
I have a coolmaster sentry mouse with 4 programmable buttons that I put 1 / 2 / 3 & 0 (I turn screen scrolling off and I binded the mouse button to a side button for easy panning of the screen - another technique that hurt my play for about a month before I began to benefit from having zero screen scrolling)
Immediately after the purchase I'll admit I was worried I wouldn't find a good sc2 use for it, but these days I can't play without it. I experimented with macro loops for auto-droning and auto-pumping lings but this only causes huge gaps to show up in your play so don't bother. I do not recommend it, regardless of its' legal outlook. It just encourages sloppy play. I notice the original poster mentioned that they need more than one layer of commands to make the g13 work for them. I find this setup is ideal because it allows one to use every function on a single layer.
I realize the layout depiction may be hard to read but i wrote this on my iPhone so I hope it makes sense and that I'm not breaking any rules by bumping the subject - I just really wanted to share this bc it makes this game so much more comfortable to play with every action a twitch away.
I highly recommend it - and not just for sc2.
Glad you found my video on the g13 useful. For those interested in seeing it you can find it here:
Now I suppose I will give my opinion on gamepad type devices. As many have already pointed out, many "gaming" keyboards also have the ability to reassign keys and setup macros with many of them including extra macro keys (think g19 keyboard or even the razer black widow). In my opinion this makes the argument pointless, that using a gamepad is unfair because it can allow a player to setup macros when many keyboards also allow the same thing. With that logic many many keyboards should also be banned from competitive play.
When you use a gamepad over a keyboard, I don't feel that it gives anyone an unfair advantage so long as macros are not used on either the gamepad or keyboard. Both take time to get used to and to get efficient with and both have their advantages and disadvantages. Many people fail to realize that using a gamepad can put you at a marked disadvantage due to the limited amount of keys at your disposal and many people will find they have issues finding enough keys for your control groups.
With that said, I feel that gamepads are far more ergonomic and relive tension in your hands from long play sessions. I feel that it is far easier (with practice) to actually perform quicker on a keyboard than on a gamepad due to many peoples familiarity with the keyboard already (it really does take significant practice to get good with a gamepad). I have tweaked and retweaked my g13 and mouse layout for efficiency many many times trying to find the most optimal and useful layout of keys.
I feel that it is near impossible to use a gamepad type device on any other setting than GRID layout due to the limited number of keys available. On standard you would need 3 different profiles for each of the three races and switching between profile midgame is just not a realistic option. Also note that you run into issues with the v and b keys as your short one key on the g13 forcing you to think of new ways to handle the issue as b is used for cancel and v is used by terrans for lifting and landing buildings.
I moved my attack key "t" down to the v position and placed "v" to the left as it is used far less than attack. I also placed "b" in the upper right as it is also used far less. You may also not that I removed the ALT key as having control group numbers is a far more efficient use of the limited keys you have. I simply set health bars to always on to alleviate most of the issues with not having an alt key.
As you can see, the disadvantages of gamepads can actually make playing the game more difficult as I only have room for 4 control groups on my actual gamepad and they are all activated with the thumb making if difficult to quickly bounce between those control groups and takes some practice to have your thumb hit the correct one.
Also, of note is that I assign the joystick to the keyboard arrows for scrolling, but i never use it to scroll around during games. I only ever use the joystick when I'm observing games or replays. I also experimented around with using the joystick for more control groups (i.e. up being 1 down being 2, ect...) but found that to be a horrible way of doing control groups.
In order to get over some of this issues with limited keys I find it almost necessary to have a mouse that also has a decent amount of assignable extra buttons. For this purpose I used to use the Razer Naga for control groups but again that also has it's disadvantages. I now use the Logitech g700 which has 4 side buttons and three top buttons: http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/09/logitech-g700-review/Logitechg700-2.jpg
I assign the three top buttons to control groups 1,2, and 3 and assign the forward two thumb buttons to 5 and 6 and the back two buttons to f5 and f6. This gives me 9 out of 10 control groups to use, as well as giving me two f keys to assign. I also have a mouse wheel with a scroll left and right button which I set to backspace so I can quickly cycle between my bases.
As you can see, even with a mouse with a lot of buttons to make up for lack of keys on the g13, I still have to sacrifice a control group and two f keys, not to mention my alt key. This is without a doubt a disadvantage over the keyboard. Furthermore it takes A LOT of getting used to to play this way, far more than getting used to playing with a keyboard. Not to mention you have to invest a lot of money getting the gamepad and a good mouse with lots of buttons just to compensate for the lack of keys.
I hope I make my point that using a gamepad does not give someone an unfair advantage over someone using a keyboard. If fact you give yourself a slight disadvantage in favor of a more ergonomic hand layout for extended playing sessions. It has taken me a year to find the optimal layout and have had to switch around keys many times (each time having to relearn all the keys) to find the optimal layout for me, and trust me it was no easy task to do.
P.S. Sorry for bumping an old thread, but I do hope my reply falls under the rule of: "If your going to bump an old thread at least make it a useful contribution to the discussion"
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.douchebagreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.belkin.com/images/product/F8GFPC001ea/STD1_F8GFPC001ea.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/5910/5910050-holder-d2f213c231e462a0913acb89b5ed7e20.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/5910/5910053-holder-b68c77c4a09105b5b975ea33b057200e.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/5910/5910056-holder-18744e18a2383ccee8ba40e0a0da4545.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/5910/5910059-holder-255bf68cbdb7c207359acdd35cf33283.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/5910/5910062-holder-0034a45e493d788ffe5a7ee857a1d7bc.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/5910/5910065-holder-65b195b867f418703af1632aa1701622.jpg)
