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On May 12 2010 06:36 TimmyMac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 06:19 avilo wrote:just think about this: for the cost of 1 cheap upgrade your opponent just turned his entire army into dark templar.  yah, it's a bit too powerful What the fuck? Are you conveniently ignoring that no zerg units can attack while burrowed?
What happens when the opponent backs up his forces to defend? Oh, right, use burrow. It's easier to notice, for sure, but is much cheaper (both in that Roaches are dirt cheap, and it doesn't require teching up to T3 for the sole purpose of being able to do it)
They have differences, but that doesn't mean they aren't comparable.
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I rarely see or use burrow in my plat games. In 2v2 detection is more abundant. In 1v1 burrow has become very rare. The reason is the burrow is at lair tech and units move really slowly while burrowed. As a zerg player its good to be sneaky,but often times concentrating your forces quickly supercedes the reason why you get burrow. Research time for burrow comes much later in sc2 tier 2 now. The time window to get into position and burrow and surprise...I just haven't been able to do it efficiently without looking like road kill. Ideally this ability would be awesome with banelings to stop initial marine/marauder but as it stands now the timing window for getting this ability and to getting into position to stop a huge macro balls of enemy units is very very small. I'll keep trying but this ability seems to have been over compensated a bit much. Lastly, by end game detection is really abundant in 1v1 so its usually less useful to get by then. In summary the location where burrow has been placed seems to be to late to be useful in thecompetitive games I've been in. I would really like to see burrow used more (or again).
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Its sad how burrow is underused.
What's more sad is Blizzard is making creative, interesting, risky (and just plain fun) strategies using burrow in the early stages of the game less and less viable.
Moving burrow tech so far into the game prevents you from doing a burrowed speed-ling backsatab. It prevents you getting vision on important places before they have detection/ map control/presence. Burrow is also nice and useful to save your drones getting ripped to shreds if your opponent dosen't have detection immediately on hand.
Burrow is an unalienable right of the Tier 1 Zerg, do not discriminate, vote against making it hard to use.
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Burrow is expensive but it's worth it.
On May 12 2010 05:23 Destro wrote:
burrow plays such a huge role that its completely worth that amount of resources. roach regen, baneling ambush, drone save, etc etc
What may make it feel wrong is: it's in tier 2; it's too expensive (100/100); it takes too long to research.
Solutions and repercutions:
-Put it back in tier 1 - would enable faster burrow play, but roach would still need a upgrade to move underground, wich doesn't make sense (they can't have it from the beginning if roach is T1). It's a neat solution, but the idea of having 2 different upgrades that depend on each other is awkward.
On May 12 2010 06:27 heishe wrote:
I just think its stupid that in theory it's possible to have burrowed movement without actually having burrow. That just seems totally awkward (yeah I know nobody will do a thing like that, still it seems totally stupid). So they should remove the upgrade or merge it with the speed upgrade.
-Nuke the tunneling claws - Seems a good choice. Wouldn't create imbalance because the time wouldn't change for roaches to be able to burrow (stays T2), and makes things more simple. Drawback is: any burrow play would take time to start, but it'll be easier to get if you don't get it asap you'll be able to get it later since it'll be 1 upgrade instead of 2 (cheaper, easier).
-Make it faster - reduce the time to upgrade burrow and it can be used fast (duh), the point is, being able to create a window of time in wich you can use a "burrow rush" to some advantage, involving strategy. The issue here is: it really need's to be faster to be usefull?
-Put it on sale - redue min/gas cost. Wouldn't change nothing alone, 25/25 less is what? A baneling? Even 50/50 doesn't make much difference, the issue is: WHEN your gonna be able to get it (being expensive balances if it is available fast).
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burrow at tier 1 wouldnt fit the game.
in sc1 early burrow harrassment was done by zerglings but even when you were out with your units and saw them entering your base you had a chance to defend with your workers plus new built units because of the ai not prioritizing workers.
now in sc2 this is not the case and there are more effective tier 1 units for zerg like banelings and roaches.
and you really cant afford "blind scans" to detect eventually burrowed units at your base.
making burrow somehow more effective overall is another thing but being tier 1 wouldnt be fun at all
still i think burrow in sc2 is quite underused
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On May 12 2010 07:15 Papillon wrote:
burrow at tier 1 wouldnt fit the game.
in sc1 early burrow harrassment was done by zerglings but even when you were out with your units and saw them entering your base you had a chance to defend with your workers plus new built units because of the ai not prioritizing workers.
now in sc2 this is not the case and there are more effective tier 1 units for zerg like banelings and roaches.
and you really cant afford "blind scans" to detect eventually burrowed units at your base.
making burrow somehow more effective overall is another thing but being tier 1 wouldnt be fun at all
still i think burrow in sc2 is quite underused
Banelings are T1, lol, I wasn't aware of that. =P I wish had a beta key...
But I agree with you, Pap, it's hard to think of burrow back to T1 in SC2. Instead, to making it workable faster (ppl has been complaining about the minimal/nonexistent time window to use it) the only option seems to be make the upgrade faster to research.
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I was under the impression that burrow was nerfed earlier in beta due to roach regen being too good. Now that roach regen is more balanced, a lowered cost/time may not be asking for too much.
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On May 12 2010 02:47 heishe wrote:
they should just make it equal to the overlord speed upgrade. 50/50 and lower research time.
Yeah lets make all zerg upgrades cost 50/50 and take no time while we're at it.
50/50 upgrades that take no time are stupid, plain and simple. When you make a beneficial upgrade cost that less and take that small of an amount of time to get you're essentially taking the choice away from the player and making it stupid NOT to get. It's the same thing with concussive shells and imo it's a failure from blizzard when you put upgrades like that in the game. Upgrades are supposed to be a choice. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I don't remember a single upgrade in brood war being that cheap OR that quick.
Meanwhile extremely important protoss upgrades like charge cost 200/200 and take years to complete...
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On May 12 2010 07:39 Xeken wrote:
I was under the impression that burrow was nerfed earlier in beta due to roach regen being too good. Now that roach regen is more balanced, a lowered cost/time may not be asking for too much.
For the record, roach regen isn't balanced.
I played a PvZ the other day in which we both had 200/200 armies. My upgrades were 3/3, his were 0/0. He burrows all his roaches and my entire army is attacking including me storming the roaches and not a single one dies.
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I agree to the posts that say Zerg should have some sort of "burrow danger" where a unit would have the mechanics of a Lurker. Of course, this can be done without bringing the Lurker back.
Burrow is extremely underused. I've been playing Z at high gold rankings and it seems like the only reason to get it is if I'm doing some gimmicky thing with banelings.
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100/100 is extremely reasonable for an ability that is as versatile as burrow. You can create ambushes, hide drones, heal roaches, harrassment tricks etc. If burrow would come bundled with lair, aside from balance issues, it would remove any player choice in the matter.
It would be nice if a player had to pay for something like creep generation, but could skip it in favour of a more aggresive play and more units.
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I really think they over nerfed burrow.
I've researched it probably 4 times since the change, and even though I would love to use it with roaches like I've been seeing a few of these pro-matches do, I just don't see it being very cost/time effective.
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On May 12 2010 07:52 -orb- wrote:
For the record, roach regen isn't balanced.
I played a PvZ the other day in which we both had 200/200 armies. My upgrades were 3/3, his were 0/0. He burrows all his roaches and my entire army is attacking including me storming the roaches and not a single one dies.
That's great and all, but we are talking about early game burrow possibilities, not burrow with organic carapace.
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What are you guys even talking about? Burrow is completely fine as it is now. Although I do have to agree that 2 upgrades being dependant on eachother is a little dumb. There are times where I research tunneling claws and then find out that I didn't even research burrow yet, just because when I go to upgrade tunneling claws I just assume my roaches can tunnel underground once its done. But then its just like, "oh right, they need to learn how to burrow first ~lol~." I think both speed and tunneling should be a combined upgrade with a higher price. Maybe something like 175/175. Also, haven't you guys watched the TL invitational? Both Slush and Artosis used burrow/tunneling claws for roaches really well for surrounding and flanking.
I find people are seeing certain aspects of the game as being too "black and white." Just because something works in the opponents favor and is harder for you, doesn't mean it's imba.
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Burrowed roaches can move under forcefields... enough said.
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Stop making such comparisons. Burrowed roaches/ DTs, EMP/ Storm, ... the races/abilities/units work in completely different ways. They have not been cost-balanced in the way you compare them deliberately.
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On May 12 2010 02:50 Ideas wrote:
I really wish that Zerg had a real "cloaked danger" in the way lurkers/spidermines were or DTs/Banshees are. burrowed roaches/banelings just dont really cut it at all. I'm not saying bring lurkers back, but I really wish zerg would have a unit that forces the other races to want to get detection.
I can only speak for TvZ since i'm a T player but if you have no detection and a z player goes mass roach it doesn't matter if you go pure marauder. When those things pop up under your army you are done.
So it does force me to get a turret out by my front natural choke and encourages me to get a raven so i don't get owned by burrowed banelings (though not many z's are abusing this.... yet.)
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Burrow is very powerful when used properly. If you force your opponent to build one extra detector or do one extra scan it has pretty much paid for itself. A burrowed ling preventing an expo can do this. It can give you tons of extra scouting info without risking ovis, makes all sorts of flanks and ambushes possible, can save your drones and queens, can be better than retreating when waiting for reinforcements... any of these uses can pay for burrow many times over. Then there are banelings, roaches and infestors, which we are really just learning how to use...
Burrow any earlier than it comes now would be too fast. And it may even be too cheap at its current cost. 100/100 to be able to hide any ground unit... Also I've noticed in replays that a lot of people research burrow at their lair after the ovi speed upgrade. It can actually be researched at any hatch once you have a lair.
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On May 12 2010 07:52 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 07:39 Xeken wrote:
I was under the impression that burrow was nerfed earlier in beta due to roach regen being too good. Now that roach regen is more balanced, a lowered cost/time may not be asking for too much. For the record, roach regen isn't balanced. I played a PvZ the other day in which we both had 200/200 armies. My upgrades were 3/3, his were 0/0. He burrows all his roaches and my entire army is attacking including me storming the roaches and not a single one dies.
Isn't the problem there the fact that you were using storm instead of colossi?
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EPT
