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Ceric
United States36 Posts
I just think that Burrowing is a very iconic ability for Zerg and its a shame that the cost to benefit of it not being very attractive. I do enjoy harassing terrans with tunneling roaches but thats a special case. So what does everyone think. Would it be game breaking if the Lair upgrade just gave Burrowing for "Free"? | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:47 heishe wrote: they should just make it equal to the overlord speed upgrade. 50/50 and lower research time. you mean like when the beta first came out? | ||
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Ideas
United States8167 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:50 Ideas wrote: I really wish that Zerg had a real "cloaked danger" in the way lurkers/spidermines were or DTs/Banshees are. burrowed roaches/banelings just dont really cut it at all. I'm not saying bring lurkers back, but I really wish zerg would have a unit that forces the other races to want to get detection. i really agree. would be awesome if some z unit could attack underground (or maybe u wanted cloaked zerg units :p) anyhow im also not saying bring back lurker but the idea itself of zerg units attacking from underground makes me say, thats zerg in raw form! | ||
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Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
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Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:51 MorroW wrote: they should make overlord upgrade twice as expensive because everyone auto-gets it on lair. in rts games u want to make choices and sacrifices. stuff like warp gate, overlord speed or concussive shells r just practically free. in fact make all of it more expensive xd. i like strategic choices, not obvious choices Yet they increased the damage of marines if I recall recollectly and keep overlords hp at the same 200 as BW.. what other options would Zerg have for scouting? Also, it isnt as if overseer has more hp than a normal overlord... | ||
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Ceric
United States36 Posts
A stealth unit be sort of cool. Sort of like if the changling could mimic the enemies unit attack at say half damage or something. Maybe just lowering the price to 100/100 would be a enough to make it a more viable tech choice. | ||
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
However, at the same time, time burrowed units were more powerful and burrowed movement speeds were faster. I don't feel it's necessary to nerf both sides of the equation to balance it. I'd like to see burrow back to its former cost and upgrade time. Then again, I play Zerg, so go figure. | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:47 KinosJourney2 wrote: Burrow being free would be imbalanced, i like burrow but paying 200/200 for it at lair tech is just outrageous IMO its 100/100 | ||
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Ceric
United States36 Posts
All the burrow moving units are now slower. Especially compared to all the cloaked units. Do any Platinum level players use Burrow? | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:42 Ceric wrote: At current time you have to get a lair and research burrowing. Now if you want to effectively "cloak" your roaches you also have to research movement. I put this as an equivalent to DT's or Banshees/Ghosts. DT's you just need to tech to them. Banshee's/Ghost you need to research cloak. I just think that Burrowing is a very iconic ability for Zerg and its a shame that the cost to benefit of it not being very attractive. I do enjoy harassing terrans with tunneling roaches but thats a special case. So what does everyone think. Would it be game breaking if the Lair upgrade just gave Burrowing for "Free"? Making it free or cheaper would maybe not be game breaking, but it'd be pretty dumb. Think of it this way. Terran and Protoss can't achieve cloaking until tier 3 or higher. Burrow is available by tier 2. Of course it's going to be more expensive. | ||
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TecNoPhi
United States25 Posts
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ccou
United States681 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:51 MorroW wrote: they should make overlord upgrade twice as expensive because everyone auto-gets it on lair. in rts games u want to make choices and sacrifices. stuff like warp gate, overlord speed or concussive shells r just practically free. in fact make all of it more expensive xd. i like strategic choices, not obvious choices i really agree. would be awesome if some z unit could attack underground (or maybe u wanted cloaked zerg units :p) anyhow im also not saying bring back lurker but the idea itself of zerg units attacking from underground makes me say, thats zerg in raw form! I agree. I just auto get all 3 abilities: warp gate, pneumatized carapace, and concussive shells without any consideration. They're sooo cheap. Actually, with warp gate, I'd probably still auto get it unless it's like 200/200. | ||
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Ideas
United States8167 Posts
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AdahnSC
United States376 Posts
cloak is 200/200 burrow is 100/100 burrow + roach burrow movement is 250/250 really its not that big of a difference. | ||
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Ceric
United States36 Posts
On May 12 2010 03:16 VX14 wrote: dark shrine is 100/250 cloak is 200/200 burrow is 100/100 burrow + roach burrow movement is 250/250 really its not that big of a difference. Ignoring the teching to get there. Wouldn't the differences amount to an extra Zealot for Toss and an extra Marine for Terran? | ||
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Chrion
United States31 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:51 Koffiegast wrote: Get sight on the terran command center and as soon as he drops a mule, have a field day.Funny part is that even when it is burrowed, shadows are shown on the ground. Also, it isnt as if pretty much any toss/terran doesn't have something for detection.. as most of them get a turret/cannon out anyways, if not for their other capabilities for detection (scan, observ) | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On May 12 2010 03:16 VX14 wrote: dark shrine is 100/250 cloak is 200/200 burrow is 100/100 burrow + roach burrow movement is 250/250 really its not that big of a difference. Great analysis. Did you consider the part where cloaked units attack while cloaked or that they move at normal speed while cloaked? Not that big of a difference I guess huh? I have been trying to use burrow more and more recently and have been very pleased with the results. Yes, it's a painful 100/100, but it's invaluable when you're getting harassed by air as zerg cause you can just burrow your drones and save your queen while reinforcements arrive. Burrowed banelings can be very devastating sometimes. I have had very very mixed results with burrowed roaches. It's a gimmicky one-trick pony that is really hit or miss. And even when it hits, it better do serious damage cause they aren't getting out alive. The problem with burrowed roaches is the cost of the units, the research and the amount of units you need to be effective. As opposed to throwing in 2 DTs or 2 cloaked banshees or 2 void rays. The lurker conflicts too much with the baneling is what the issue is for introducing the lurker. Everything the baneling does, the lurker can do better without dieing. Yes the baneling is new... but it's not really better. Though, it is satisfying to explode a marching terran army. I think burrow research should be faster and just a bit cheaper, maybe 75/75. I do like that few people research it though. Makes me feel unique! | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Burrow roaches are good more so for positioning than sneak attacks. With only 3 range being able to pop up on top of your target is a big benefit. Doubly so if it results in the enemy being unable to flee. You can also use it to attack while your opponent's forces are spread out while moving giving you the chance to pick off some free troops. | ||
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Wi)nD
Canada719 Posts
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cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
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Ceric
United States36 Posts
On May 12 2010 04:37 cr4ckshot wrote: I always research burrow-move when I'm facing forcefields. It totally shuts down their sentry-heavy build. Forcefields don't block them like Supply depots and like do? | ||
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
On May 12 2010 04:44 Ceric wrote: Forcefields don't block them like Supply depots and like do? Correct, burrowed roaches can move under force fields. | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
O shi- Oh well, i guess 100/100 is fine then. But if it had a lower build time it would be used more. | ||
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
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Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
Argument is 100% pointless, wrong and unfounded. A reason to buff zerg and how this would help zerg and not make things imbalanced would be useful. Do this why I go make a (nonsensically titled) thread about how DT's should be easier to get k? | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
On May 12 2010 04:29 Vexx wrote: Great analysis. Did you consider the part where cloaked units attack while cloaked or that they move at normal speed while cloaked? Not that big of a difference I guess huh? I have been trying to use burrow more and more recently and have been very pleased with the results. Yes, it's a painful 100/100, but it's invaluable when you're getting harassed by air as zerg cause you can just burrow your drones and save your queen while reinforcements arrive. Burrowed banelings can be very devastating sometimes. I have had very very mixed results with burrowed roaches. It's a gimmicky one-trick pony that is really hit or miss. And even when it hits, it better do serious damage cause they aren't getting out alive. The problem with burrowed roaches is the cost of the units, the research and the amount of units you need to be effective. As opposed to throwing in 2 DTs or 2 cloaked banshees or 2 void rays. The lurker conflicts too much with the baneling is what the issue is for introducing the lurker. Everything the baneling does, the lurker can do better without dieing. Yes the baneling is new... but it's not really better. Though, it is satisfying to explode a marching terran army. I think burrow research should be faster and just a bit cheaper, maybe 75/75. I do like that few people research it though. Makes me feel unique! i agree with this. burrow roaches is a gimmick but burrow most definately ain't. burrow owned in broodwar, back when everyone had detection coming out of their ears. i think the problem is that if you skip burrow then you really don't get a chance to get it until much later. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
yah, it's a bit too powerful | ||
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MrRey
183 Posts
After that they kept nerfing the roaches, reducing their movement underground, greatly reducing their health regen. So I guess they should put back Burrow like it was. Maybe not the price but the research time. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
edit: I just think its stupid that in theory it's possible to have burrowed movement without actually having burrow. That just seems totally awkward (yeah I know nobody will do a thing like that, still it seems totally stupid). So they should remove the upgrade or merge it with the speed upgrade. I mean it would make total sense. With the upgrade the roach DNA gets altered in a way that makes their legs and "arms" stronger, which enables them to both run faster and move underground. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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TimmyMac
Canada499 Posts
On May 12 2010 06:19 avilo wrote: just think about this: for the cost of 1 cheap upgrade your opponent just turned his entire army into dark templar. yah, it's a bit too powerfulWhat the fuck? Are you conveniently ignoring that no zerg units can attack while burrowed? | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
 edit: and also that they can't move at all except for 2. | ||
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Clow
Brazil880 Posts
Or just give us lurkers. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On May 12 2010 06:36 TimmyMac wrote: What the fuck? Are you conveniently ignoring that no zerg units can attack while burrowed? What happens when the opponent backs up his forces to defend? Oh, right, use burrow. It's easier to notice, for sure, but is much cheaper (both in that Roaches are dirt cheap, and it doesn't require teching up to T3 for the sole purpose of being able to do it) They have differences, but that doesn't mean they aren't comparable. | ||
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Persev
United States127 Posts
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3693 Posts
What's more sad is Blizzard is making creative, interesting, risky (and just plain fun) strategies using burrow in the early stages of the game less and less viable. Moving burrow tech so far into the game prevents you from doing a burrowed speed-ling backsatab. It prevents you getting vision on important places before they have detection/ map control/presence. Burrow is also nice and useful to save your drones getting ripped to shreds if your opponent dosen't have detection immediately on hand. Burrow is an unalienable right of the Tier 1 Zerg, do not discriminate, vote against making it hard to use. | ||
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Evilruler
Brazil116 Posts
On May 12 2010 05:23 Destro wrote: burrow plays such a huge role that its completely worth that amount of resources. roach regen, baneling ambush, drone save, etc etc What may make it feel wrong is: it's in tier 2; it's too expensive (100/100); it takes too long to research. Solutions and repercutions: -Put it back in tier 1 - would enable faster burrow play, but roach would still need a upgrade to move underground, wich doesn't make sense (they can't have it from the beginning if roach is T1). It's a neat solution, but the idea of having 2 different upgrades that depend on each other is awkward. On May 12 2010 06:27 heishe wrote: I just think its stupid that in theory it's possible to have burrowed movement without actually having burrow. That just seems totally awkward (yeah I know nobody will do a thing like that, still it seems totally stupid). So they should remove the upgrade or merge it with the speed upgrade. -Nuke the tunneling claws - Seems a good choice. Wouldn't create imbalance because the time wouldn't change for roaches to be able to burrow (stays T2), and makes things more simple. Drawback is: any burrow play would take time to start, but it'll be easier to get if you don't get it asap you'll be able to get it later since it'll be 1 upgrade instead of 2 (cheaper, easier). -Make it faster - reduce the time to upgrade burrow and it can be used fast (duh), the point is, being able to create a window of time in wich you can use a "burrow rush" to some advantage, involving strategy. The issue here is: it really need's to be faster to be usefull? -Put it on sale - redue min/gas cost. Wouldn't change nothing alone, 25/25 less is what? A baneling? Even 50/50 doesn't make much difference, the issue is: WHEN your gonna be able to get it (being expensive balances if it is available fast). | ||
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Papillon
Germany131 Posts
in sc1 early burrow harrassment was done by zerglings but even when you were out with your units and saw them entering your base you had a chance to defend with your workers plus new built units because of the ai not prioritizing workers. now in sc2 this is not the case and there are more effective tier 1 units for zerg like banelings and roaches. and you really cant afford "blind scans" to detect eventually burrowed units at your base. making burrow somehow more effective overall is another thing but being tier 1 wouldnt be fun at all still i think burrow in sc2 is quite underused | ||
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MoNoNauT
United States74 Posts
my post from a few weeks ago, relevant to this discussion. | ||
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Evilruler
Brazil116 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:15 Papillon wrote: burrow at tier 1 wouldnt fit the game. in sc1 early burrow harrassment was done by zerglings but even when you were out with your units and saw them entering your base you had a chance to defend with your workers plus new built units because of the ai not prioritizing workers. now in sc2 this is not the case and there are more effective tier 1 units for zerg like banelings and roaches. and you really cant afford "blind scans" to detect eventually burrowed units at your base. making burrow somehow more effective overall is another thing but being tier 1 wouldnt be fun at all still i think burrow in sc2 is quite underused Banelings are T1, lol, I wasn't aware of that. =P I wish had a beta key... But I agree with you, Pap, it's hard to think of burrow back to T1 in SC2. Instead, to making it workable faster (ppl has been complaining about the minimal/nonexistent time window to use it) the only option seems to be make the upgrade faster to research. | ||
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:47 heishe wrote: they should just make it equal to the overlord speed upgrade. 50/50 and lower research time. Yeah lets make all zerg upgrades cost 50/50 and take no time while we're at it. 50/50 upgrades that take no time are stupid, plain and simple. When you make a beneficial upgrade cost that less and take that small of an amount of time to get you're essentially taking the choice away from the player and making it stupid NOT to get. It's the same thing with concussive shells and imo it's a failure from blizzard when you put upgrades like that in the game. Upgrades are supposed to be a choice. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I don't remember a single upgrade in brood war being that cheap OR that quick. Meanwhile extremely important protoss upgrades like charge cost 200/200 and take years to complete... | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:39 Xeken wrote: I was under the impression that burrow was nerfed earlier in beta due to roach regen being too good. Now that roach regen is more balanced, a lowered cost/time may not be asking for too much. For the record, roach regen isn't balanced. I played a PvZ the other day in which we both had 200/200 armies. My upgrades were 3/3, his were 0/0. He burrows all his roaches and my entire army is attacking including me storming the roaches and not a single one dies. | ||
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
Burrow is extremely underused. I've been playing Z at high gold rankings and it seems like the only reason to get it is if I'm doing some gimmicky thing with banelings. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
It would be nice if a player had to pay for something like creep generation, but could skip it in favour of a more aggresive play and more units. | ||
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btlyger
United States470 Posts
I've researched it probably 4 times since the change, and even though I would love to use it with roaches like I've been seeing a few of these pro-matches do, I just don't see it being very cost/time effective. | ||
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:52 -orb- wrote: For the record, roach regen isn't balanced. I played a PvZ the other day in which we both had 200/200 armies. My upgrades were 3/3, his were 0/0. He burrows all his roaches and my entire army is attacking including me storming the roaches and not a single one dies. That's great and all, but we are talking about early game burrow possibilities, not burrow with organic carapace. | ||
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afiddy
Canada108 Posts
I find people are seeing certain aspects of the game as being too "black and white." Just because something works in the opponents favor and is harder for you, doesn't mean it's imba. | ||
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Skee
Canada702 Posts
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:50 Ideas wrote: I really wish that Zerg had a real "cloaked danger" in the way lurkers/spidermines were or DTs/Banshees are. burrowed roaches/banelings just dont really cut it at all. I'm not saying bring lurkers back, but I really wish zerg would have a unit that forces the other races to want to get detection. I can only speak for TvZ since i'm a T player but if you have no detection and a z player goes mass roach it doesn't matter if you go pure marauder. When those things pop up under your army you are done. So it does force me to get a turret out by my front natural choke and encourages me to get a raven so i don't get owned by burrowed banelings (though not many z's are abusing this.... yet.) | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
Burrow any earlier than it comes now would be too fast. And it may even be too cheap at its current cost. 100/100 to be able to hide any ground unit... Also I've noticed in replays that a lot of people research burrow at their lair after the ovi speed upgrade. It can actually be researched at any hatch once you have a lair. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:52 -orb- wrote: For the record, roach regen isn't balanced. I played a PvZ the other day in which we both had 200/200 armies. My upgrades were 3/3, his were 0/0. He burrows all his roaches and my entire army is attacking including me storming the roaches and not a single one dies. Isn't the problem there the fact that you were using storm instead of colossi? | ||
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Bael
Australia49 Posts
While the Roach/Infestor movement-while-burrowed gimmicks are useful in some isolated situations, the true power of cloaked units is being able to deal heavy damage to the opponent while they scramble to get detection into play, either in economic harassment or picking off units. If you leave a DT or Banshee in your base without responding quickly, terrible, terrible damage can be wreaked on your worker line. With Roaches, once they've unburrrowed, you reveal your hand, and they are effectively countered pre-detection by having an army nearby to attack them when they've unburrowed. So what does Zerg need? A useful attacking/harassment unit that can strike while burrowed. Did someone say Lurker? | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
every terran gets concussive shells and every zerg gets overlord speed. might as well remove the upgrade and just make it passive in the current situation. | ||
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:50 -orb- wrote: 50/50 upgrades that take no time are stupid, plain and simple. When you make a beneficial upgrade cost that less and take that small of an amount of time to get you're essentially taking the choice away from the player and making it stupid NOT to get. It's the same thing with concussive shells and imo it's a failure from blizzard when you put upgrades like that in the game. Upgrades are supposed to be a choice. On May 12 2010 16:49 hoovehand wrote: 50/50 upgrades are dumb, especially as the insanely useful concussive shells and overlord speed received the buff... much less useful ones still cost a fortune - for example reaper speed 150/150 120 sec :D every terran gets concussive shells and every zerg gets overlord speed. might as well remove the upgrade and just make it passive in the current situation. You are really missing something there. Upgrades are not only meant to be a choice, they are also meant to provide lategame viability to early game units, which would be too powerful otherwise. Concussive Shells as a cheap upgrade exists to make the early game easier/possible for toss. Overlord Speed exists to give Zerg a better lame game scouting and Overlord viability but denying full early game mapcontrol which would counter all proxy-builds. It is just not only about giving choices, but about balancing the pace of the game. And that is why 50/50 upgrades have their place. As for burrow, I also think it should be back to Tier 1 and have a bit reduced research time (maybe 30% down). It's so rare to actually see people use it anymore, even with infestors or roaches... Not at all for flanking because once you get it, your opponents usually have a raven or an obs. | ||
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mnck
Denmark1518 Posts
Burrow adds so much strength to units like Infestors, Banelings, scouting Zerglings and rescuing drones, that it is almost always worth it getting burrow. The choice is when to get it, not whether you want to get it or not. It is a lot like Warp gate tech for Protoss. It's such a great tech you always want to get it, but the choice is when. Same goes for burrow, when can I spare 100 gas on this upgrade? | ||
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Kaza
United States31 Posts
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Orzabal
France287 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:47 heishe wrote: they should just make it equal to the overlord speed upgrade. 50/50 and lower research time. agree | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On May 12 2010 18:58 Kaza wrote: Are there any good replays of burrow being utilized? I'm in platinum and I hardly ever see a real good use for it. In theory its a good way to set up ambushes and all that, but how often do you have time to do all that and not have the enemy notice? There was this Roach tactic wherein Zerg would rush Tunneling Claws so that he would place his Roach army directly underneath the Marauders and then unburrow. | ||
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Phlatline
Croatia176 Posts
Not really broken, since they can't attack burrowed. Make a turret or don't spend every little bit of your energy on mule Oo As Toss you can just make "A" observer and be fine... | ||
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IrrasO
United States408 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
I think it would be much more interesting to see stuff like early burrowed roach harassment, burrowing banelings in the mineral lines of possible expos for your opponent, stopping early pushes with burrowed banelings, setting up flanks or backstab attacks early on, and so on. All that kind of stuff would be really cool to do early on, would add a bit more change to the gameplay too. But in return, you would be actually paying for it, investing in that tech. As is currently, against protoss, you cant get burrow before he makes an observer, against terran, you obv cant get it before he gets an orbital, but its also not realistic to get for example burrowed banelings at his choke before he pushes out. Lots of cool stuff can be done with burrow, but when by te time its done, your opponent is already nearly at T3, or already there, then its not all that useful | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10870 Posts
Then they increased the research time for burrow because roach regen was broken.... Problem with burrow is: By the time youi have it, toss has observers (its fine atm against Terran) and burrowing anything that cant move very fast or move while burrowed is just to risky. burrow Hydras off creep is like playing in the lottery. | ||
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Prem_
United States85 Posts
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CryGirl1921
Poland78 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On May 12 2010 20:52 Velr wrote: Once upon a time fast burrow + roach claws were fun to use. Then they increased the research time for burrow because roach regen was broken.... Problem with burrow is: By the time youi have it, toss has observers (its fine atm against Terran) and burrowing anything that cant move very fast or move while burrowed is just to risky. burrow Hydras off creep is like playing in the lottery. Yeah they kept nerfing the regen and then the burrow move speed but burrow should be 50/50 again. | ||
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dessilator
United States8 Posts
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Actua
Canada101 Posts
vs terran : I've blown up countless amounts of 1 base pushes. Seriously, burrow 9 + blings in a well spread manner into a choke or spot you know the player will go through and watch as any amount of marines/marauders/tanks will explode in a second. It litterally gives you the game. vs toss: clearly not as useful ( if not useless) unless he went for another tech tree than robo Vs zerg: God, I once planted like 15+ blings on blistering sands and blew up like 15 or so roaches with a couple hydras. Cant always be that lucky, but they really fuck up hydra tech if used correctly. Btw, 10-15 zerg plat player | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:51 MorroW wrote: they should make overlord upgrade twice as expensive because everyone auto-gets it on lair. in rts games u want to make choices and sacrifices. stuff like warp gate, overlord speed or concussive shells r just practically free. in fact make all of it more expensive xd. i like strategic choices, not obvious choices i really agree. would be awesome if some z unit could attack underground (or maybe u wanted cloaked zerg units :p) anyhow im also not saying bring back lurker but the idea itself of zerg units attacking from underground makes me say, thats zerg in raw form! There should be a trapdoor spider! | ||
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AnodyneSea
Jamaica757 Posts
On May 12 2010 03:04 Ceric wrote: I didn't have the numbers handy. All the burrow moving units are now slower. Especially compared to all the cloaked units. Do any Platinum level players use Burrow? You need to watch some SLush ZvT he uses burrowed roaches very well, i started using it and its very very effective | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:50 -orb- wrote: Yeah lets make all zerg upgrades cost 50/50 and take no time while we're at it. 50/50 upgrades that take no time are stupid, plain and simple. When you make a beneficial upgrade cost that less and take that small of an amount of time to get you're essentially taking the choice away from the player and making it stupid NOT to get. It's the same thing with concussive shells and imo it's a failure from blizzard when you put upgrades like that in the game. Upgrades are supposed to be a choice. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I don't remember a single upgrade in brood war being that cheap OR that quick. Meanwhile extremely important protoss upgrades like charge cost 200/200 and take years to complete... # THIS! i dont understand why they make upgrades 50/50 and 20 seconds or something. its just stupid. just make them an ability of the unit without tech or make them expensive enough so that you dont tech them automatically. as P i tech charge really late cause its not that important for my playstyle and its expensive or blink only if i see mutas or banshees but things like concussive shells i grade directly cause they are super cheap have small research time and have a HUGE effect. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
getting burrow wouldnt even be an option at 50/50 ud just do it and force the other player to get detection. its stupid. | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On May 12 2010 23:42 T0fuuu wrote: ud just do it and force the other player to get detection. its stupid. Seems like for you, the simpler the game the less stupid it is. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
On May 12 2010 23:47 lolaloc wrote: Seems like for you, the simpler the game the less stupid it is. Do you not get concussive shells? burrow should be a choice to be made, not just another cheap upgrade. Cloak is a choice that is not cheap, DT is a choice with its own branch off. Burrow should remain as it is. How is making having tech choices that require alot of investment and thought simplifying the game? | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
On May 12 2010 23:47 lolaloc wrote: Seems like for you, the simpler the game the less stupid it is. i dont understand this... | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On May 13 2010 01:33 T0fuuu wrote: Do you not get concussive shells? burrow should be a choice to be made, not just another cheap upgrade. Cloak is a choice that is not cheap, DT is a choice with its own branch off. Burrow should remain as it is. How is making having tech choices that require alot of investment and thought simplifying the game? I don't see your point. In the way I see it, when an opponent is forced to adapt because of certain circumstances, the game becomes more complex in nature. If a player can't force his opponent to change his plan, we would get repetitive games. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:54 Koffiegast wrote: Yet they increased the damage of marines if I recall recollectly and keep overlords hp at the same 200 as BW.. what other options would Zerg have for scouting? Also, it isnt as if overseer has more hp than a normal overlord... They also removed marine range and made them build slower. How is this related to anything? | ||
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Keype
Sweden455 Posts
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:51 MorroW wrote: they should make overlord upgrade twice as expensive because everyone auto-gets it on lair. in rts games u want to make choices and sacrifices. stuff like warp gate, overlord speed or concussive shells r just practically free. in fact make all of it more expensive xd. i like strategic choices, not obvious choices i really agree. would be awesome if some z unit could attack underground (or maybe u wanted cloaked zerg units :p) anyhow im also not saying bring back lurker but the idea itself of zerg units attacking from underground makes me say, thats zerg in raw form! True, but it's basically the upgrade time that you're paying for. Concussive shells could have started on the marauder, but since everyone realized how dominant that was early, they put a research time and small cost on it. imo Blizzard wants these upgrades almost every game, almost forcing a uniqueness out of certain units/buildings. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On May 12 2010 09:41 Jonoman92 wrote: I can only speak for TvZ since i'm a T player but if you have no detection and a z player goes mass roach it doesn't matter if you go pure marauder. When those things pop up under your army you are done. So it does force me to get a turret out by my front natural choke and encourages me to get a raven so i don't get owned by burrowed banelings (though not many z's are abusing this.... yet.) Yes.... one of my friends has been experimenting with a baneling / roach contain that comes pretty quickly. The zerg doesn't need overwhelming numbers, but just needs to show his hand. When the terran scans the zergs base and sees a baneling nest / roach warren with a lair upgrade that should automatically send red flags out that he CANNOT move out without medivac or ravens (burrowed banelings, burrowed while moving roaches, etc). This gives zerg a HUGE window to take map control, expand, diversify his bonds, etc... It seems to me that brute force builds (like the ghost / marauder push) are becoming less effective as people realize how to take control of the positional and territorial game. | ||
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ilnp
Iceland1330 Posts
On May 12 2010 02:51 MorroW wrote: they should make overlord upgrade twice as expensive because everyone auto-gets it on lair. in rts games u want to make choices and sacrifices. stuff like warp gate, overlord speed or concussive shells r just practically free. in fact make all of it more expensive xd. i like strategic choices, not obvious choices in my opinion, functional upgrades should be either costly and quick, or cheap and long. cheap and fast is basically the worst -- basically the only part of this is getting to the tech to make it. concussive shells is the dumbest, because they're the same tech as getting the marauder. At least with the overlord, it's a perk of getting a lair, which comes after the overlord. Expensive and long is also an option, but means that it's going to be a rarity in the game. Expensive and quick means you have to save for it to do it -- but once you save, you'll get it back relatively quickly. Look at stim for example -- oh I gotta save 150/150.. ok, got it, now I can't attack for 150s | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
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