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I think the only thing lacking from the Zerg cloaked/burrowed arsenal is a unit that can attack and pose a real threat while invisible. Toss have DTs (and Mothership cloak field), Terran have Banshees (and Ghosts), all of which can move and attack while invisible; while Zerg have Banelings, which are immobile and require sheer luck or foresight more than anything (enemy moves whole army over banelings without detection). Because of the lack of range on a baneling's attack, if you try to burrow offensively (i.e when the enemy can see you) it's a simply matter to avoid walking over that area until they get detection. Burrowed banelings might be useful for positioning the enemy's army, but they've unlikely to do any damage of their own. Zerg need a ranged unit that can straight-up attack the enemy for the same cost of using a DT or Banshee. *cough* Lurker *cough*.
While the Roach/Infestor movement-while-burrowed gimmicks are useful in some isolated situations, the true power of cloaked units is being able to deal heavy damage to the opponent while they scramble to get detection into play, either in economic harassment or picking off units. If you leave a DT or Banshee in your base without responding quickly, terrible, terrible damage can be wreaked on your worker line. With Roaches, once they've unburrrowed, you reveal your hand, and they are effectively countered pre-detection by having an army nearby to attack them when they've unburrowed. So what does Zerg need? A useful attacking/harassment unit that can strike while burrowed.
Did someone say Lurker?
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It doesn't matter that they have an army waiting for Burrowed Roaches, because that means you're keeping their army contained.
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50/50 upgrades are dumb, especially as the insanely useful concussive shells and overlord speed received the buff... much less useful ones still cost a fortune - for example reaper speed 150/150 120 sec :D
every terran gets concussive shells and every zerg gets overlord speed.
might as well remove the upgrade and just make it passive in the current situation.
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On May 12 2010 07:50 -orb- wrote:
50/50 upgrades that take no time are stupid, plain and simple. When you make a beneficial upgrade cost that less and take that small of an amount of time to get you're essentially taking the choice away from the player and making it stupid NOT to get. It's the same thing with concussive shells and imo it's a failure from blizzard when you put upgrades like that in the game. Upgrades are supposed to be a choice.
On May 12 2010 16:49 hoovehand wrote:
50/50 upgrades are dumb, especially as the insanely useful concussive shells and overlord speed received the buff... much less useful ones still cost a fortune - for example reaper speed 150/150 120 sec :D
every terran gets concussive shells and every zerg gets overlord speed.
might as well remove the upgrade and just make it passive in the current situation.
You are really missing something there. Upgrades are not only meant to be a choice, they are also meant to provide lategame viability to early game units, which would be too powerful otherwise. Concussive Shells as a cheap upgrade exists to make the early game easier/possible for toss. Overlord Speed exists to give Zerg a better lame game scouting and Overlord viability but denying full early game mapcontrol which would counter all proxy-builds.
It is just not only about giving choices, but about balancing the pace of the game. And that is why 50/50 upgrades have their place.
As for burrow, I also think it should be back to Tier 1 and have a bit reduced research time (maybe 30% down). It's so rare to actually see people use it anymore, even with infestors or roaches... Not at all for flanking because once you get it, your opponents usually have a raven or an obs.
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The fact that burrow applies to all Zerg units makes it invaluable. But using it just to get a DT-like surprise effect, then is not worth it.
Burrow adds so much strength to units like Infestors, Banelings, scouting Zerglings and rescuing drones, that it is almost always worth it getting burrow. The choice is when to get it, not whether you want to get it or not.
It is a lot like Warp gate tech for Protoss. It's such a great tech you always want to get it, but the choice is when. Same goes for burrow, when can I spare 100 gas on this upgrade?
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Are there any good replays of burrow being utilized? I'm in platinum and I hardly ever see a real good use for it. In theory its a good way to set up ambushes and all that, but how often do you have time to do all that and not have the enemy notice?
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On May 12 2010 02:47 heishe wrote:
they should just make it equal to the overlord speed upgrade. 50/50 and lower research time.
agree
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On May 12 2010 18:58 Kaza wrote:
Are there any good replays of burrow being utilized? I'm in platinum and I hardly ever see a real good use for it. In theory its a good way to set up ambushes and all that, but how often do you have time to do all that and not have the enemy notice?
There was this Roach tactic wherein Zerg would rush Tunneling Claws so that he would place his Roach army directly underneath the Marauders and then unburrow.
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omg if burrowed roach is imba, what to say when u have to deal with banshee or dt?
Not really broken, since they can't attack burrowed. Make a turret or don't spend every little bit of your energy on mule Oo
As Toss you can just make "A" observer and be fine...
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what alot of the zerg users in here neglect is that banshees/ghosts require energy for cloaking. they're also not dirt cheap to mass produce like the roaches are. with roaches at 75/25 with a build time of 27, compared to the banshee and ghost (150/100/60sec and 150/150/40sec respectively) you just won't be able to mass produce these as much as you would roaches to abuse the cloaking. i can't really say anything about dts however, i hate those.
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Id rather have the cost increased a bit, and the research time decreased greatly.
I think it would be much more interesting to see stuff like early burrowed roach harassment, burrowing banelings in the mineral lines of possible expos for your opponent, stopping early pushes with burrowed banelings, setting up flanks or backstab attacks early on, and so on.
All that kind of stuff would be really cool to do early on, would add a bit more change to the gameplay too. But in return, you would be actually paying for it, investing in that tech.
As is currently, against protoss, you cant get burrow before he makes an observer, against terran, you obv cant get it before he gets an orbital, but its also not realistic to get for example burrowed banelings at his choke before he pushes out.
Lots of cool stuff can be done with burrow, but when by te time its done, your opponent is already nearly at T3, or already there, then its not all that useful
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Once upon a time fast burrow + roach claws were fun to use.
Then they increased the research time for burrow because roach regen was broken....
Problem with burrow is:
By the time youi have it, toss has observers (its fine atm against Terran) and burrowing anything that cant move very fast or move while burrowed is just to risky.
burrow Hydras off creep is like playing in the lottery.
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Nahhh dont give it for free... thats just dumb because basically all of the zerg units will be able to use it.
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100/100 for burrow is kinda ok, but lower research time !!
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On May 12 2010 20:52 Velr wrote:
Once upon a time fast burrow + roach claws were fun to use.
Then they increased the research time for burrow because roach regen was broken....
Problem with burrow is:
By the time youi have it, toss has observers (its fine atm against Terran) and burrowing anything that cant move very fast or move while burrowed is just to risky.
burrow Hydras off creep is like playing in the lottery.
Yeah they kept nerfing the regen and then the burrow move speed but burrow should be 50/50 again.
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Toss has to also build another building before he can use DTs
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Burrow is amazingly effective in Sc2, and it's probably due to the lesser presence of detection.
vs terran : I've blown up countless amounts of 1 base pushes. Seriously, burrow 9 + blings in a well spread manner into a choke or spot you know the player will go through and watch as any amount of marines/marauders/tanks will explode in a second. It litterally gives you the game.
vs toss: clearly not as useful ( if not useless) unless he went for another tech tree than robo
Vs zerg: God, I once planted like 15+ blings on blistering sands and blew up like 15 or so roaches with a couple hydras. Cant always be that lucky, but they really fuck up hydra tech if used correctly.
Btw, 10-15 zerg plat player
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On May 12 2010 02:51 MorroW wrote:they should make overlord upgrade twice as expensive because everyone auto-gets it on lair. in rts games u want to make choices and sacrifices. stuff like warp gate, overlord speed or concussive shells r just practically free. in fact make all of it more expensive xd. i like strategic choices, not obvious choices Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 02:50 Ideas wrote:
I really wish that Zerg had a real "cloaked danger" in the way lurkers/spidermines were or DTs/Banshees are. burrowed roaches/banelings just dont really cut it at all. I'm not saying bring lurkers back, but I really wish zerg would have a unit that forces the other races to want to get detection. i really agree. would be awesome if some z unit could attack underground (or maybe u wanted cloaked zerg units :p) anyhow im also not saying bring back lurker but the idea itself of zerg units attacking from underground makes me say, thats zerg in raw form!
There should be a trapdoor spider!
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On May 12 2010 03:04 Ceric wrote:
I didn't have the numbers handy.
All the burrow moving units are now slower. Especially compared to all the cloaked units. Do any Platinum level players use Burrow?
You need to watch some SLush ZvT he uses burrowed roaches very well, i started using it and its very very effective
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On May 12 2010 07:50 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 02:47 heishe wrote:
they should just make it equal to the overlord speed upgrade. 50/50 and lower research time. Yeah lets make all zerg upgrades cost 50/50 and take no time while we're at it. 50/50 upgrades that take no time are stupid, plain and simple. When you make a beneficial upgrade cost that less and take that small of an amount of time to get you're essentially taking the choice away from the player and making it stupid NOT to get. It's the same thing with concussive shells and imo it's a failure from blizzard when you put upgrades like that in the game. Upgrades are supposed to be a choice. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I don't remember a single upgrade in brood war being that cheap OR that quick. Meanwhile extremely important protoss upgrades like charge cost 200/200 and take years to complete...
# THIS!
i dont understand why they make upgrades 50/50 and 20 seconds or something. its just stupid. just make them an ability of the unit without tech or make them expensive enough so that you dont tech them automatically.
as P i tech charge really late cause its not that important for my playstyle and its expensive or blink only if i see mutas or banshees but things like concussive shells i grade directly cause they are super cheap have small research time and have a HUGE effect.
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EPT
