EPTLifted Terrans and Stalemate - Page 2
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ramen-
90 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On May 08 2010 10:22 R1CH wrote: Were there ever any popular maps for BW that had this issue? It seems SC2 maps have a lot more "out of bounds" territory than BW maps. I doubt a dragoon could hit a lifted barracks in the top left of New Tornado. | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:20 Sentient wrote: For the same reason Chess can end in a draw even if you are down on pieces. If you sense you are behind, playing for a draw is considered a viable strategy in most games. Except chess draws are simple and moderated, lift off draws are not moderated and make the game obnoxiously long if not infinitely long. Should make normal CCs incapable of flight, only OCs. Then give barracks, factory, and starport energy. Flight takes energy as a fuel, when a building is out of energy, it saps health instead. Give some cost to preemptively building an OC completely safe behind a terran wall. | ||
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:28 ccou wrote: Except chess draws are simple and moderated, lift off draws are not moderated and make the game obnoxiously long if not infinitely long. Should make normal CCs incapable of flight, only OCs. Then give barracks, factory, and starport energy. Flight takes energy as a fuel, when a building is out of energy, it saps health instead. Give some cost to preemptively building an OC completely safe behind a terran wall. That last idea is actually very interesting. I could see it being reasonable if implemented properly | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:28 ccou wrote: Except chess draws are simple and moderated, lift off draws are not moderated and make the game obnoxiously long if not infinitely long. Should make normal CCs incapable of flight, only OCs. Then give barracks, factory, and starport energy. Flight takes energy as a fuel, when a building is out of energy, it saps health instead. Give some cost to preemptively building an OC completely safe behind a terran wall. I don't think terran flight should be nerfed just because some protoss players enjoy base trading. A draw system could be implemented... but in the meantime if you're fighting a terran, keep in mind that terran buildings can lift off before you let them kill your nexus. | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:31 shinosai wrote: I don't think terran flight should be nerfed just because some protoss players enjoy base trading. A draw system could be implemented... but in the meantime if you're fighting a terran, keep in mind that terran buildings can lift off before you let them kill your nexus. Yeah, I think a 5 minutes no damage=draw with ample warning would be ok too, but lifted CCs and OCs shouldn't count as mains in terms of the reveal mechanic. | ||
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[Agony]x90
United States853 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:20 ramen- wrote: It's the other guy's fault if he can't save anything to kill off the last buildings. if protoss has just one pylon on an island and kills all of terran's workers/air units/etc so that he can't kill the pylon, should the pylon eventually run out of energy and die since the other guys had more stuff left over? I was actually thinking this, but more so in a negative light. I'm not a fan of the thought of being able to "force" a stalemate. I suppose its not too much of an issue if it only happened once in a while, say by means of someone building a pylon somewhere and the other player not being able to reach it. But, given that the Terran can easily lift their buildings and run, i would guess there would be a very disproportionate amount of draws going towards Terran. Just think, given PvT is at about 56 % win rate, or what ever it is, people become concerned about possible "imbalance" or "brokenness". If we introduce the "draw" mechanism, what would people say if Terrans participate in as little as 40 percent of the draw results. That's 7 percent more than it ideally should be, but honestly, i can see the terrans being in more than 40 percent of the draw games. Why? Simply because Terran is the only race that can force a draw at any point of the game. If Protoss and Zerg lose their army without capability for production, this generally indicates that the other team has at least one fighting unit, and the protoss or zerg will (in almost all scenarios) lose the match. However, if Terran loses its entire army, and runs away, the other player is forced to tech to air units; this is not always possible, which would lead to a draw. If the situations are the same (ie one player loses his entire army and production and the other has an army but loses production), the results should really be the same for all races. So i honestly think this is actually a balance issue, and would become even more so if a draw rule were placed in. I for one would never accept a draw if I have an army, but am unable to finish the game simply because the player has a barracks with 1 hp more than burning somewhere in the corner that i can't reach. Instead, i think Blizzard should add onto the "reveal" system, and add in more triggers for more scenarios, at least for ladder (since leagues and tournys probably have their own set rules). I guess one example would be simply awarding the other team if one team is incapable of production, resource gathering of any form and has no army. Obviously this can still lead to running buildings AND say vikings away, but it'll lower the chances of someone forcing a draw by simply sacrificing his entire army to focus fire a hatch and all the drones and run away with a barracks somewhere. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
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Lemure
189 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:28 ccou wrote: Except chess draws are simple and moderated, lift off draws are not moderated and make the game obnoxiously long if not infinitely long. Yes, so all Blizzard has to do is add a draw system. There is no need for anything else to solve this problem. In fact I think draws are already in game, there was a screenshot where both players destroyed each others buildings at the exact same time to force a draw. | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:13 fuzzehbunneh wrote: there's playing to a draw and theres lifting off your stuff once youre beat so you can hide in the corner If the other person has 0 resources or units able to kill your floated buildings then they didn't win, end of story. | ||
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
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Duckvillelol
Australia1239 Posts
Does this also mean Zerg can have a limit on the amount of creep tumours too? I certainly don't disagree that this is mainly an issue with BM terran players, however it not only a terran issue. FYI - I'm a terran player and I don't really float to victory, unless it's a clear base-trade where I can win. Floating to be an annoying bitch is just lame. | ||
HawaiianPig
Canada5155 Posts
On May 08 2010 12:30 Duckvillelol wrote: Does this also mean Protoss should have a limited amount of pylons they can randomly build around the map? Does this also mean Zerg can have a limit on the amount of creep tumours too? what. 500 words, explain how this is at all the same. On my desk by Monday. Other races simply do not have an analogue to the Terran free-stalemate-liftoff. | ||
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
On May 08 2010 10:51 HawaiianPig wrote: Yeah, put it this way, if there's a Terran lifted with no army and a Protoss running around the map waiting for the Terran to float back in, if the power went out(!!!), they'd call the game in the Protoss' favour, no? I've spoken to some on IRC about this, and the biggest objection comes from the notion that the Terran, while he has no chance to win, certainly doesn't have to move out and lose. However the nature of the lift off stalemate is always such that the opponent who is grounded (be it P Z or T), has a definite army advantage and would without question win the game if the Terran floated back in. Some may argue that the Terran could potentially rebuild, but if that were the case he would have attempted to do so long before this hypothetical fuel runs out (givin' the dude 5 minutes or 10 minutes or so is more than enough). Secondly, I'm not sure how draws would work on the ladder, and the Terran liftoff isn't common enough to mess around with scoring systems and whathaveyou, when the easier solution is to force the game to end. EDIT: didnt like how i wrote it out but basically it should be a draw even if it looks stupid because you cant ignore the dimensions of the game, as in the races and the maps, as its part of the game, and it has always been part of the game ever since bw, except were back to playing with blizz maps for a while -_- | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On May 08 2010 10:36 Sadist wrote: the terran shouldnt lose. It should just be a draw. why exactly do terrans deserve to get rewarded for hidden pylons gayness that blizzard very well tried to eliminate with the revealed technique. | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
It's not like races haven't seen downgrades since BW. Zerglings lost dps while everything else that transferred over gained dps. Mutalisks lost stacking. Protoss now needs a dark shrine to build DTs, speedlots are way better than chargelots, storm is numerically much worse. I think these are all good changes to compensate for things introduced in SC2. Building flight is way faster than BW by the way. Why not add a fuel mechanic? It would lower the number of obnoxious draws. It creates tension when terrans have to lift for long durations. It doesn't have to be a specified capacity just yet, how much fuel/energy is spent while in flight can be adjusted for balance. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
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Bob300
United States505 Posts
On May 08 2010 10:36 Sadist wrote: the terran shouldnt lose. It should just be a draw. Really........ then when your about to lose liftoff and free draw... no lose. great idea  | ||
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chromate
Canada338 Posts
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ccou
United States681 Posts
And it ends in a draw if it's TvT which would shorten that MU to a reasonable time too! | ||
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