Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 39

On April 28 2010 03:26 fantomex wrote:
I'm more annoyed that my medivacs don't heal while moving than anything brought up here.

On April 28 2010 03:30 Zoltan wrote:
I really hate the tone of this article- but i can feel the OP's need to vent his frustration over one small mechanic. I agree that the fastest air unit in the game (Pheonix) SHOULD be able to hit and run on a group of mutalisks without dying (not currently the case), However, for the rest of the units in the game, you can "dance" with most of them, and i think that hellions would be rediculously OP if you could move attack with them the way you can with vultures.

To be honest- i feel this method of thinking is only goign to set people back in SC2. Somone else already quoted Day[9] [quoteDay9 said a genius thing yesterday on his daily: You should play the game given the current set of rules and ask yourself, how do I play optimally in this situation? After you realize that you can play optimally in most situations (which I doubt anyone can claim right now), then can you only start thinking about whether the current gameplay is in any way favored to lucky all-ins as opposed to a more management macro game approach.

And honestly while there arent any vulture/muta micro tricks like BW- theres plenty of sweet micro to be abused. Reapers jumping diagonaly up and down cliffs can cover TONS of ground in no time, hellions require absolute perfect micro to be a good tactical unit, marauders and marine micro is subtle yet wins and loses games on its own. (only terran examples from terran player), but i think i got my point across.

I agree with the premise, but I disagree with your conclusion. SC1 has a very strong skill wall between even the lowest level of competitive play and the highest level of casual play. You could call this the D/D- wall.

In order to become D+ as a Zerg, for example, you must learn Muta micro. Period. You don't have to be great at it, but you need minimal proficiency in the concept. And since Muta micro is an arcane concept that requires a nonsensical array of inputs to work correctly, the only way to learn it is to read about it online. You'll never figure out the sequence of inputs and timings necessary otherwise.

So the division is between those who spend time researching online and those who don't.

So long as SC1's skills are based on arbitrary game engine quirks rather than explicit design, discovering them will be a question of culture rather than learning. If you're part of the TeamLiquid.net community, you can find the tricks and get ahead. If you're not, and you're not part of a similar community, you never will.

To be honest- i feel this method of thinking is only goign to set people back in SC2. Somone else already quoted Day[9] [quoteDay9 said a genius thing yesterday on his daily: You should play the game given the current set of rules and ask yourself, how do I play optimally in this situation? After you realize that you can play optimally in most situations (which I doubt anyone can claim right now), then can you only start thinking about whether the current gameplay is in any way favored to lucky all-ins as opposed to a more management macro game approach.

On April 28 2010 01:33 Qikz wrote:



Retarded unit clumping? How about you MICRO your units so they don't do it?

On April 28 2010 03:08 infrinjinsin wrote:


Bah.. Nerd > Nerd alcoholic

I am a total newb, this cannot be denied. I just registered to respond to this thread specifically because the tone was like "so much is WRONG with SC2." But I think pretty much everything about it is frickin awesome. I played a good deal of BW, not enough to get very good though.

Here's the thing - why on earth would anyone see only being able to select 12 units is a good thing? Only people who have invested a great deal of time to become masters at working around such a limitation could be so inane, and the moving shot exploits are the same I feel. That's kind of why I said "get a grip" but what I meant was more "take a step back and think objectively".

On April 28 2010 03:53 killias2 wrote:
[long ass post]

On April 28 2010 03:53 killias2 wrote:
I think this article has some good points, but, overall, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Yeah, some elements of micro have been lost, but others have been added in. I honestly don't know how you can make the argument that SC2 does not involve micro and/or does not allow pros to distinguish themselves from amateurs. These are critical points to your viewpoint, and you don't come anywhere close to proving them. Hell, as someone who plays fairly frequently (Gold) and watches a lot of replays, I just don't believe either of these points are true. Better players can differentiate themselves in plenty of ways. There are hundreds of important uses for micro in terms of harassment, pitched battles, and scouting, and I just don't see how someone who PLAYS this game can't see that.

I do think there are some problems with SC2 as things stand. Hard counters are far too prevalent and powerful. I think this is at the heart of most of the controversies. Still, even though you imply the opposite ("Starcraft had a one size fits all damage system. Now how the hell did Blizzard balance it despite not being able to give units arbitrary bonus damage values towards specific armor types?"), Starcraft actually DID have a unit type/damage type system. Why do you think bats were GREAT against Zealots and lings and absolutely awful at everything else? The difference between SC1 and 2 here is that SC2 has beefed up the system, and, IMO, probably a bit too much. This explains why buildings are too easy to destroy, thus rendering defense difficult at best (any unit with + vs. armored will rip through buildings like tissue paper), why Terran ground is essentially worthless against Protoss ground in mid-game (name a Terran unit that isn't hard countered by a major component of a mid-game Protoss army...), and why certain early cheese is so effective (fast reaper.. Jesus, WAY too effective). It also gives off the "rock, paper, scissors" feel that makes games feel slightly more luck-based than SC1 did.

Nonetheless, these problems can be dealt with without your favored mechanic, and, in fact, this mechanic does virtually nothing to address any of these problems. How would better micro-ed air lead to any changes in the balance? Phoenix may be better against Muta... but Muta will be better against virtually everything else. I also not convinced that a well micro-ed Muta couldn't respond to a well micro-ed Phoenix. Even within the contours of the game AS IS, there are solutions to these problems. First and foremost, SCOUT! Scouting is a HUGE part of this game. In fact, due to the hard counters, its quite possibly more important than in the first one. I understand that scouting while creating armies, expanding, macroing, and harassing is difficult.. but that's why you need skill. Along with all the classics of micro (skills, cliff abuse, utilizing opportunities for mobility, harassing, etc.), scouting must also use up valuable APM.

If you can't handle it, please return to Brood War. I'm sure you'll have more fun, and I won't have to read another 10 page piece on how Browder doesn't care about the fans and how SC2 is all about n00bs and bright colors.

On April 28 2010 04:00 lolaloc wrote:

Examine this table:

On April 28 2010 04:00 lolaloc wrote:

Examine this table:

On April 28 2010 04:01 Fallen wrote:

Well said! I can't believe this thread is getting so much replies.

I'm glad its a different game, I wouldnt like to play "brood war with better graphics". They kept enough of the first game to get the feel of it and they did a marvelous job if you ask me. I wanted new mechanics, new units and totally different strategies and tactics. Thats what I got and im very happy with the results that I've got my hands on.

I'm sure some poeple will come up with "brood war with better graphics" custom maps and all you whiners and BW fanbois can go play that!

I'm also glad lalush wasnt on the balance team, what a horrible POS we would be playing right now lol.