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On April 25 2010 09:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x]
When a football team plays a game all their game film goes into a database that every team can analyze.
Same deal. Use it to your advantage to run with unorthodox strategies, instead of crying about it
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This is going to be really great for the vast majority of the playerbase! Having a large selection of "standard" games to look at and study very very carefully will do wonders for advancing the skill level of the vast majority of studious players.
As for the complaint that it ruins "creative" builds, I really don't see it. I mean, say you have some creative new build like DIMAGA's baneling bust. DIMAGA probably practiced that build order with training partners in custom games, not against random opponents on the ladder, since he wouldn't want it to get leaked anyways. (If he did practice it on ladder, that's pretty risky--all it takes is 1 opponent to upload the replay somewhere and suddenly the build is "out there" for opponents to study).
I'd say more than anything what it does is allow "standard" players to really refine, optimize, and perfect their safe build orders, because they have a HUGE variety of replays to study a standard build order and see all the timings/nuances of it. With BW, often times people wouldn't release replays where Player X plays a very standard, ordinary BO and just crushes player Y with pure mechanics--solid macro and solid timing--because it wasn't interesting or creative enough that most people would want to watch it, and so learning the really specific timings of how do do a standard build had to be done through reading on forums, carefully watching VODs, or reading Liquipedia, and maybe watching a few replays that you could get your hands on.
With this system, I can go and just download all of IdrA's ladder games to see exactly how he plays out his standard 15pool 16hatch ZvX opening, and how he develops it into the midgame and what his timings are. And then I can go practice a very standard, macro oriented style and build order with a lot of information about exactly how it's done. Some people might say that's a bad thing, since it'll increase the skill level of the players much more rapidly, but as far as I'm concerned anything that furthers along the development of the game is good.
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I think, at the very least, the pro league will allow a lot of fresh blood to get some recognition, even if some of the more well known players opt out because they don't want their strategies revealed. I honestly feel that there are more solid random players out there than some of the more recognized ones in our community, but there's no outlet for them to gain that attention.
Regardless, at the highest of the highest, I don't see why it would really matter if a strategy is revealed. The game reaches a point where everything is known, and it's just a matter of anticipation. In other words, the game reaches a point where solid play trumps creative strategy, because there is little innovation left, and it comes down to a player's individual ability more than anything else. It just means we'll reach that point quicker than we have with Brood War, bu tmaybe I'm talking out of my ass, I don't know. It makes logical sense to me, though.
Honestly, depending on how Blizzard handles the professional league, for example broadcasting tournaments that generate tons of exposure and media, it could potentially hurt the people who opt out more than it helps. We can only wait and see.
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On April 25 2010 12:42 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 09:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x] When a football team plays a game all their game film goes into a database that every team can analyze. Same deal. Use it to your advantage to run with unorthodox strategies, instead of crying about it
Right, when the play a game it's recorded. But it's not recorded when they practice.
As a result, people in proleague will either have alternate accounts for practicing or they'll just be playing customs like 75%+ of the time, depending on how much they practice.
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Most pros practice in customs anyways right? Besides if the replay is worth reviewing the opponent will save it and learn from it and possibly upload it anyways, this just makes it more streamlined.
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On April 25 2010 12:56 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:42 PanzerDragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 09:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x] When a football team plays a game all their game film goes into a database that every team can analyze. Same deal. Use it to your advantage to run with unorthodox strat, instead of crying about it Right, when the play a game it's recorded. But it's not recorded when they practice. As a result, people in proleague will either have alternate accounts for practicing or they'll just be playing customs like 75%+ of the time, depending on how much they practice.
Won't they be practicing on customs anyway? Top plat players practice primarily in customs already, so you can do the same build in the same matchup over and over and over again to iron out the timings. You're not going to want to practice in ladder anyway where half the time people random race into 6pool.
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Hopefully there is an option to turn off replay uploading on some games that they may be trying hidden strategies. Along with that hopefully there is a feature to rate (*) games after it is played so we know which are the most entertaining games to watch!
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On April 25 2010 10:28 Reborn8u wrote:
wow... just wow
There should be a 2 week delay or something on replays, allowing players to get some use out of innovations. Most halo pro's play customs 90% of the time, I've seen some of there accounts where they have over 15000 customs played and under 1000 matchmaking. I would be surprised if sc2 isnt similar in this reguard.
Yeah, I feel even if replays were protected it would break down into customs being the primary form of practice because you can do so much more when you can tell the other guy to do a certain b.o, etc.
As a spectator, the release of replays is a great thing lol.
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The other weird thing about proleague will be constantly getting matched with top-tier players. I feel like you'd play them enough to have a good feel for them come serious tournaments and whatnot.
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On April 25 2010 10:40 Hrrrrm wrote:
If you want Esports to become legitimate then you have to allow for people to examine opponents strengths and weaknesses. The only way to do that is being able to watch their games. Ladder matches will be the public games and spectators will have something to watch as well. Custom games will remain like a private practice and Blizzard won't touch those, so you can work on your super secret strats.
The more people whine and cry about public ladder games being released the less legitimacy SC2 Esports will have. Progress means things changing and if you want to make some sort of "stand" against the "man" for making your precious ladder matches public, someone else will take your place. There are people that will be the best at SC2 that haven't even heard of the game yet. Go ahead and fracture the player base before it's even been established just because you don't want to do things a different way.
I want my horse and buggy back damn it!
What this guy said is a QFT...
Maybe people hold current pros is far too high esteem.....if they cant play this game like any other pro sport, it doesnt deserve to be considered an esport...period.
$0.02
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Where can someone get their hands on these replays? Or are still not available?
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On February 07 2013 12:39 Pucca wrote:
Where can someone get their hands on these replays? Or are still not available?
Not in this universe!
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EPT
