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Surprised no one picked up on this, copy and pasted from
Source
The pro league will be released post-ship and it will be based on an invitational basis. Being in the pro league there will be some privileges and being in the pro league your replays will be automatically uploaded online. The specifics of the pro league are forth coming and they do expect to release an esports focused release.
I see this as being good and bad, depending on the type of player you are. If your a player who follows the latest trends and just does the standard then its probably no harm. However top players who are always trying new stuff and who use the ladder as a way to test new strategies, they might be turned away from this.
From a casual player perspective, this is great.
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Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x]
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Hm that is very interesting wonder if you can get "cash" if your in proleague. I doubt it but hope they live stream some games or something 
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this is awesome , I can't wait to hear more
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I hope they let some unknowns in. There are several unknown players out there that can definitely hold up their own, myself included.
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I don't see the issue. Plenty of high level players ladder without smurfing. Sure, they ladder, but they practice the strategies that they are planning for huge tournaments like WCG or something with their team mates. I really see no problem with this.
I highly doubt it will automatically upload pro-league player matches from custom games. And if they do, the professional players will buy another account that they use for practicing internally with team mates in custom games.
What this really does is create another league sort of tournament thing. What I do hope, however, is that players have the ability to disable the chat being saved.
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On April 25 2010 09:16 blade55555 wrote:Hm that is very interesting wonder if you can get "cash" if your in proleague. I doubt it but hope they live stream some games or something
They might have to offer cash as incentive for people to join :p. With this pro league though itll promote more practice partners to try new builds as to not show them in pro league.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Funny - we'll have a league called proleague, with almost NO real professional players
The only exception to this would be if being in the proleague meant you could win a lot of money, in which case it'd be fine. If it's just "the highest division".... I forsee a lot of people playing custom games.
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theres gotta be a perk to being in the "proleague"
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Depending on how exclusive pro-league is that could be incentive enough, as the popularity from X amount of people viewing your games could get you invites into other cash tournaments.
I think you are also exaggerating the amount of people who hold back winning builds... For instance ill play my placement games like there is 10k$ on the line :D
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
It'll force people to innovate more, which is a good thing.
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Blizzard seems to favor a top-down approach these days. Battle.net 2.0 is really an attempt to centralize everything, and I'm not sure how it'll all work out. I was hoping that they'd be more hands-off and just provide the tools that'll make running tournaments easy, but apparently they want players to play the way they want them to play ala WoW. Personally, I'm really against the limitations they've placed on Battle.net 2.0 and hope that organizations like ICCUP will be able to provide alternatives - though legally speaking Blizzard is probably capable of shutting them down if they wanted to.
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this is a pretty cool idea
it at least gives blizzard a list of people that are at that skill level for them to follow
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"Unit discussion involved a confirmation that the Broodlord was 'insanely overpowered'. However, they are leaning more towards nerfing rather than changing the design of the unit. Statistically the Battlecruiser is the least used unit, but it has some prominence in some Terran vs Terran games, while the Archon is second least used, but being a recycle unit they feel that this is normal. The idea behind the Archon being a recycle for the Dark Templar is that if the enemy has too much detection you have the option of recycling them into an Archon. Although Dustin Browder admits that the fans may prove him wrong, he does not feel the Ultralisk can be played in a lot of viable scenarios."
wow... just wow
There should be a 2 week delay or something on replays, allowing players to get some use out of innovations. Most halo pro's play customs 90% of the time, I've seen some of there accounts where they have over 15000 customs played and under 1000 matchmaking. I would be surprised if sc2 isnt similar in this reguard.
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not sure if i like this. Sure its sweet to have their reps but think about it. If someones practicing a build they made up to use in a tournament and its a build that'll leave our jaws open cause its so amazing and creative, then everybody will know about it before that tournament even takes place. I like that tournament replays will be made available to us but just them practicing their builds, idk.
But then again they would probably just play custom games and even if the reps weren't publicly available, other ppl in the pro league would get the reps and know their enemies build, so maybe its not a bad idea at all. Actually its probably a good idea.
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lol if a professional scene ever develops there will be zero "pro" players on it at all, and anyone aspiring to be an actual pro will probably not play on it either.
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If people were going to be using a creative build they would rely on thier practice partners in custom games not to reveal that build.
Also I noticed that there will not be chat channels in B.net 2.0 at the time of release. This is very dissapointing.
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the players create the scene not blizzard. blizzard can try and implement whatever they want but the players will go for what they like.
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I imagine there will be some incentive for players to join the proleague. Blizzard threw like 100k at WoW tournaments over the last year or two. If they can do that for such a crappy competitive game I would hope they can at least meet that bar for a game designed around competition.
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Players on teams like Mousesports, EG and Fnatic, are 'professional gamers' per se. Just because they don't earn 300k like Flash doesn't make them not professional. They play for a professional gaming team.
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Pro League matches = like the OSL prelims. It's not a big deal if replays are auto-uploaded. Since I doubt people who are in the Pro League will ONLY play in the Pro League, I don't see this as having a big impact on creative builds. After all, if I'm practicing something innovative, I'm going to be doing it in a custom game with a practice partner, right?
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Would it basically become the WC3 ladder 'pro league' that is invite only? The top qualifiers of that is invited to the blizzard invitation tournaments.
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Because SC2 is so popular, LAN events will be will the staple of competition (Just like CS, etc), online would turn into merely practice area.
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it sounds great to me, complainers die!
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If you want Esports to become legitimate then you have to allow for people to examine opponents strengths and weaknesses. The only way to do that is being able to watch their games. Ladder matches will be the public games and spectators will have something to watch as well. Custom games will remain like a private practice and Blizzard won't touch those, so you can work on your super secret strats.
The more people whine and cry about public ladder games being released the less legitimacy SC2 Esports will have. Progress means things changing and if you want to make some sort of "stand" against the "man" for making your precious ladder matches public, someone else will take your place. There are people that will be the best at SC2 that haven't even heard of the game yet. Go ahead and fracture the player base before it's even been established just because you don't want to do things a different way.
I want my horse and buggy back damn it!
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51444 Posts
It will be like the WC3 Blizzard invitational ladder is my guess.
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No chat channels at ship is ridiculous... I don't get hey blizzard would completely remove communicationbetween players...
They have been basing a lot of their decisions on newer players but how can newer players without experienced friends even learn from others if they can't find people to talk to in a public forum???
Just so disappointing.
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On April 25 2010 10:47 Dr.Frost wrote:
No chat channels at ship is ridiculous... I don't get hey blizzard would completely remove communicationbetween players...
They have been basing a lot of their decisions on newer players but how can newer players without experienced friends even learn from others if they can't find people to talk to in a public forum???
Just so disappointing.
Wrong thread. This one is complaining about something else. Although all these complaint threads sound the same after a while, so I can't blame you for getting mixed up.
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On April 25 2010 10:47 Dr.Frost wrote:
Wrong thread. This one is complaining about something else. Although all these complaint threads sound the same after a while, so I can't blame you for getting mixed up.
Incorrect. In that interview it was mentioned that chat channels would not be included. So this comment was pertinent to the discussion at hand.
I think Blizzard will handle this pro league just fine and even if it doesn't work out there will be multiple other venues for players to use.Just have some patience and faith in their system.
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On April 25 2010 10:41 GTR wrote:
It will be like the WC3 Blizzard invitational ladder is my guess.
That ladder was so stupid, so many people threw games to teammates/friends to bump them up the ladder and it ended up deciding a lot of the tourney invites.
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pro players are going to be playing pro league, just like they do iccup. but of course they will heavily favor playing custom games or find a non-blizz non-sanctioned/network server to play on.
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If blizz puts enough money into it then im sure pros(at least foreign pros) will join. I doubt people would use creative builds on it anyways, I mean the replays could still leak out that way. They would probably just practice creative builds against team mates(like korean pros do right now) and then use them in all sorts of tournaments. If blizz does put enough money into it and it becomes a prestigious league then it would be a gateway to other invitational tournaments.
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If blizzard's proleague gets half the money that the WoW competitions get then great/pro players will play in them.
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On April 25 2010 10:37 ComradeDover wrote:
Pro League matches = like the OSL prelims. It's not a big deal if replays are auto-uploaded. Since I doubt people who are in the Pro League will ONLY play in the Pro League, I don't see this as having a big impact on creative builds. After all, if I'm practicing something innovative, I'm going to be doing it in a custom game with a practice partner, right?
I'm thinking along those lines. If someone is developing a super secret build that they don't want to spoil, they won't try it in ladder games. Anyway, a good build should be able to win even if the enemy knows about it (or at least do well), catching your opponent by surprise is a one trick pony.
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Pro anything means your games are watched. Any sport, and any esport imo. So to me that's just the burden that goes with the title.
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well, another interpretation is that they upload the replays online for storage. so in case your computer gets wiped theyre stored on a database for posterity. and maybe not necessarily for public consumption.
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Marshall Islands104 Posts
Does this mean that the replays will be accessible to all or to just the pro league himself? I mean, is it just automatic, free online storage for the gamer, or is it available to the public.
Unless I misread, I bet it is just auto-storage as a perk for the pro league players. Not necessarily making the replays automatically public.
[EDIT] I must have just said what the the above poster said.
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On April 25 2010 10:41 GTR wrote:
It will be like the WC3 Blizzard invitational ladder is my guess.
Care to shed some light on that? Was it any good or a huge failure, not caring for WC3 I don't know myself.
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On April 25 2010 12:26 Jayde wrote:
Does this mean that the replays will be accessible to all or to just the pro league himself?
[EDIT] I must have just said what the the above poster said.
I am assuming it is going to be a system like HON, where all pro replays are stored in the cloud. You can search via player name, account or recent matches; request the download and its stored in your replays directory. So anyone with access to the cloud (anyone with a battlenet account) will have access to it.
They did mention incentives to play in the pro-league; so i assume that means cash prizes or flights to tournaments with cash prizes.
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On April 25 2010 09:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x]
When a football team plays a game all their game film goes into a database that every team can analyze.
Same deal. Use it to your advantage to run with unorthodox strategies, instead of crying about it
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This is going to be really great for the vast majority of the playerbase! Having a large selection of "standard" games to look at and study very very carefully will do wonders for advancing the skill level of the vast majority of studious players.
As for the complaint that it ruins "creative" builds, I really don't see it. I mean, say you have some creative new build like DIMAGA's baneling bust. DIMAGA probably practiced that build order with training partners in custom games, not against random opponents on the ladder, since he wouldn't want it to get leaked anyways. (If he did practice it on ladder, that's pretty risky--all it takes is 1 opponent to upload the replay somewhere and suddenly the build is "out there" for opponents to study).
I'd say more than anything what it does is allow "standard" players to really refine, optimize, and perfect their safe build orders, because they have a HUGE variety of replays to study a standard build order and see all the timings/nuances of it. With BW, often times people wouldn't release replays where Player X plays a very standard, ordinary BO and just crushes player Y with pure mechanics--solid macro and solid timing--because it wasn't interesting or creative enough that most people would want to watch it, and so learning the really specific timings of how do do a standard build had to be done through reading on forums, carefully watching VODs, or reading Liquipedia, and maybe watching a few replays that you could get your hands on.
With this system, I can go and just download all of IdrA's ladder games to see exactly how he plays out his standard 15pool 16hatch ZvX opening, and how he develops it into the midgame and what his timings are. And then I can go practice a very standard, macro oriented style and build order with a lot of information about exactly how it's done. Some people might say that's a bad thing, since it'll increase the skill level of the players much more rapidly, but as far as I'm concerned anything that furthers along the development of the game is good.
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I think, at the very least, the pro league will allow a lot of fresh blood to get some recognition, even if some of the more well known players opt out because they don't want their strategies revealed. I honestly feel that there are more solid random players out there than some of the more recognized ones in our community, but there's no outlet for them to gain that attention.
Regardless, at the highest of the highest, I don't see why it would really matter if a strategy is revealed. The game reaches a point where everything is known, and it's just a matter of anticipation. In other words, the game reaches a point where solid play trumps creative strategy, because there is little innovation left, and it comes down to a player's individual ability more than anything else. It just means we'll reach that point quicker than we have with Brood War, bu tmaybe I'm talking out of my ass, I don't know. It makes logical sense to me, though.
Honestly, depending on how Blizzard handles the professional league, for example broadcasting tournaments that generate tons of exposure and media, it could potentially hurt the people who opt out more than it helps. We can only wait and see.
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On April 25 2010 12:42 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 09:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x] When a football team plays a game all their game film goes into a database that every team can analyze. Same deal. Use it to your advantage to run with unorthodox strategies, instead of crying about it
Right, when the play a game it's recorded. But it's not recorded when they practice.
As a result, people in proleague will either have alternate accounts for practicing or they'll just be playing customs like 75%+ of the time, depending on how much they practice.
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Most pros practice in customs anyways right? Besides if the replay is worth reviewing the opponent will save it and learn from it and possibly upload it anyways, this just makes it more streamlined.
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On April 25 2010 12:56 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:42 PanzerDragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 09:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wow...that's going to make a lot of players not want to join the proleague.
If replays are automatically uploaded then no one's going to do anything innovative in that league. They should hide replays and leave it up to the players to decide whether or not to upload them. If they want people to see the matches then just make it so people can spectate or something.
EDIT: I read the source and it's interesting how Browder himself thinks that ultras are useless x] When a football team plays a game all their game film goes into a database that every team can analyze. Same deal. Use it to your advantage to run with unorthodox strat, instead of crying about it Right, when the play a game it's recorded. But it's not recorded when they practice. As a result, people in proleague will either have alternate accounts for practicing or they'll just be playing customs like 75%+ of the time, depending on how much they practice.
Won't they be practicing on customs anyway? Top plat players practice primarily in customs already, so you can do the same build in the same matchup over and over and over again to iron out the timings. You're not going to want to practice in ladder anyway where half the time people random race into 6pool.
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Hopefully there is an option to turn off replay uploading on some games that they may be trying hidden strategies. Along with that hopefully there is a feature to rate (*) games after it is played so we know which are the most entertaining games to watch!
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On April 25 2010 10:28 Reborn8u wrote:
wow... just wow
There should be a 2 week delay or something on replays, allowing players to get some use out of innovations. Most halo pro's play customs 90% of the time, I've seen some of there accounts where they have over 15000 customs played and under 1000 matchmaking. I would be surprised if sc2 isnt similar in this reguard.
Yeah, I feel even if replays were protected it would break down into customs being the primary form of practice because you can do so much more when you can tell the other guy to do a certain b.o, etc.
As a spectator, the release of replays is a great thing lol.
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The other weird thing about proleague will be constantly getting matched with top-tier players. I feel like you'd play them enough to have a good feel for them come serious tournaments and whatnot.
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On April 25 2010 10:40 Hrrrrm wrote:
If you want Esports to become legitimate then you have to allow for people to examine opponents strengths and weaknesses. The only way to do that is being able to watch their games. Ladder matches will be the public games and spectators will have something to watch as well. Custom games will remain like a private practice and Blizzard won't touch those, so you can work on your super secret strats.
The more people whine and cry about public ladder games being released the less legitimacy SC2 Esports will have. Progress means things changing and if you want to make some sort of "stand" against the "man" for making your precious ladder matches public, someone else will take your place. There are people that will be the best at SC2 that haven't even heard of the game yet. Go ahead and fracture the player base before it's even been established just because you don't want to do things a different way.
I want my horse and buggy back damn it!
What this guy said is a QFT...
Maybe people hold current pros is far too high esteem.....if they cant play this game like any other pro sport, it doesnt deserve to be considered an esport...period.
$0.02
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Where can someone get their hands on these replays? Or are still not available?
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On February 07 2013 12:39 Pucca wrote:
Where can someone get their hands on these replays? Or are still not available?
Not in this universe!
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EPT
