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The issue
Compared to Korea where there are regulations against excessive public bad manner and crude ceremonies, will the western competitive RTS scene allow such behavior just because it may make the game more interesting?
My thoughts:
I was musing around with the idea that StarCraft 2 might actually make its mark in competitive gaming in the West, at least being on recognition with "competitive games" such as Halo or MW2. By recognition, I at least mean that the general population is aware that StarCraft 2 has a competitive scene with big money tourneys. No more of "omg in korea its like their national sport" in every article written by mainstream gaming blogs.
But if you compare big games like Halo, MW2, Counter-Strike, and even competitive WoW, you can definitely notice that these players have a lot more of a rage and BM personality. Of course we've all experienced extreme frustration and rage quit some of our SC games, but professional players in modern competitive FPS games openly display this in a public tournament.
Also, consider that American audiences are different from our fellow Koreans in terms of cultural behaviors as well. The general American audiences want big personalities and big talk with flashy stages and pre-game trash talk. Though Koreans do have flashy stages and insane intros and over the top ceremonies from time to time, for a competition you can see that the players display themselves in a humble manner with handshakes and bows before each match.
My concern is that though I admit the world may never nerd out with the rest of us and raise StarCraft 2 to the realm of high competitive art, a flashy over the top bad manner big personality extravaganza is something I fear will shed an even more disturbing light on what competitive gaming is all about.
For discussion:
Input from players around the world is greatly appreciated on this matter. What do you think will happen if StarCraft 2 really blows up in the West? Essentially WWE for gamers, or a respectable competitive scene?
Note: I admit the most I've seen with competitive FPS games is random clips on youtube and random matches. I encourage anyone to correct me on any misconceptions I have, whether it be competitive FPS or western and asian culture
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I like flash and pomp but I also appreciate honor among competitors of any sport.
I'm all about a confident sportsman who feels he is the best and wants to prove it but when it goes to the level of trash talking the other competitors then I do not like it.
In my opinion being a good sportsman can include confidence etc but making others look worse so you look better is never called for in any culture. It may be more acceptable in the west but that doesn't make it a good thing.
I will never root for a jerk, and someone being the 'villain' doesn't add entertainment value to me personally.
I think Husky's interview of InControl is a perfect example of how someone can be confident, even arrogant but its silly in a good way and outside of his (very obvious) joking about shoes and europeans it was done in fun. Great example imo of a sportsman being competative and even talking a little trash but not denigrating anyone seriously and not treating others like crap to look better or tougher.
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I think the level of professionalism will rely heavily on the organizations who promote SC2 as an e-sport. If they want to play up the drama it would be good of them to handle it like WWE or such, with lots of trash talking between competitors so that stories outside of the game can develop easier. If they want to make it look like a real sport such as the NFL or NBA then they would do well to limit the amount of BM and other bad press that players get. Even if the players themselves are BM they're not going to specifically show it in a game if doing so will risk them getting fined for lots of money. Any professional sport does of course have its fair share of BM, however it's up to the press and the organizations running it to determine how prevalent that kind of BM is out there to be easily accessed by the public.
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Have you ever considered that the Korean esports scene is influenced by its (Confucious) culture? Western culture is much more open and flamboyant, for better or worse. Just because esports is big in Korea don't assume thats the only model that will work.
Just let the scene evolve naturally, I can think of serveral occasions where series have been made 100 times more exiting because of the feud between the players. Drama is exiting, and thus could be a force for good in the western esports scene.
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On April 25 2010 08:13 Reach_UK wrote:
Have you ever considered that the Korean esports scene is influenced by its (Confucious) culture? Western culture is much more open and flamboyant, for better or worse. Just because esports is big in Korea don't assume thats the only model that will work.
Just let the scene evolve naturally, I can think of serveral occasions where series have been made 100 times more exiting because of the feud between the players. Drama is exiting, and thus could be a force for good in the western esports scene.
I agree that drama will inevitably exist no matter the location or scene. However, I just thought it'd be a shame if the reputation of mostly positive competition built over years and years by the community was immediately associated with over-aggressive drama and bad manner.
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I don't see what the problem with this would be. I'd be more worried about Sc2 actually becoming that competitive in foreign countries before worrying about how the players act. I wouldn't mind if people talk smack, it makes things hilarious (look at the Uvic rap/diss parodies, those are comedy gold!)
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the only way sc2 will become an esport in the "western" scene, is if it gets backed by legitimate, or major companies. It is the reason why sc is so big in korea, the teams are owned by major corporations
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you forgot to mention brawl for the rage/bm part, at mlg orlando ally was raging that he lost the brawl tourney.
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On April 25 2010 08:24 biology]major wrote:
the only way sc2 will become an esport in the "western" scene, is if it gets backed by legitimate, or major companies. It is the reason why sc is so big in korea, the teams are owned by major corporations
^
+1
I mean as competitive as other games may be, like Counterstrike, Halo, Smash brothers, etc etc, they don't have that "professional" backing like a sports team or something. There's a huge difference between a competitive community with many tournaments when compared to how in Korea matches are aired, there are specific stadiums just for starcraft, there's an official organization looking over, and large companies (I mean Korea Air this time, seriously) sponsoring sanctioned events.
However, although the pro gaming scene in the west may or may not be as "professional" as in Korea,it doesn't mean its worse. After all games are for fun and enjoyment as well. I'm sure when/if Korea adopts SC2 it will still be highly sponsored with coaches etc etc much like it is now. Watching Korean SC tournies just feels more "official." and I do hope that SC2 will carry this sort of aura as it progresses
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I believe internet or "nerd" culture in general will have a much larger effect on this in the western world than cultural differences between countries. When it comes to politeness, I'd say Asia is a different animal, but when it's the United States and Europe most of what will be acceptable will stem from the culture surrrounding the game, rather than what is the norm in the individual countries.
Then again I have a hard time seeing the immensly commercialized spectacle that is US sports happening in Sweden where I live, where it seems sports fans in particular and people in general dissapprove of this type flashiness and pomp. Also Sweden is a small country, and there might be an insufficient nerd problem. Not per capita, because we have a comparatively high nerd to regular person ratio, but in real numbers. It might make it tricky for big events to attract sufficient crowds.
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It depends on how the sponsors set it up. Hockey and WWE are set up in ways that encourage this sort of 'BM'. (Strange to use it out of context) If let's say, AMD sponsors it, and makes it seem very professional, it would be different from if a different corporation sponsors it and portrays it in a different light.
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On April 25 2010 08:46 Froadac wrote:
It depends on how the sponsors set it up. Hockey and WWE are set up in ways that encourage this sort of 'BM'. (Strange to use it out of context) If let's say, AMD sponsors it, and makes it seem very professional, it would be different from if a different corporation sponsors it and portrays it in a different light.
Well you would have to consider that if a corporation like AMD wants to draw more attention to the scene, they may allow or encourage crazy bm trash talk =O
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Canada5565 Posts
Korean pros are that, professionals, and they act like it. Classy and baller.
Some teenage nerds in the U.S. raging over losing something that requires minimal skill doesn't make it entertaining imo.
Jaedong's killer stare > any bm ceremony/yelling
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Uh in america BM isn't thought of as bad. Really trash talk is VERYYYYYYYY common among competitive gaming in NA most notably MLG. Really though its regulated, but its apart of the game. If you get bothered by it you shouldn't be competiting in the first place. Everyones friendly and people still talk trash. I dont really understand why in SC theres a thing called bm anyway.... If your competiting of course theres trash talk.
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Until the stigma of nerds = games goes away, i dont see e sports happening outside of Asia.
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On April 25 2010 08:52 OHtRUe wrote:
Uh in america BM isn't thought of as bad. Really trash talk is VERYYYYYYYY common among competitive gaming in NA most notably MLG. Really though its regulated, but its apart of the game. If you get bothered by it you shouldn't be competiting in the first place. Everyones friendly and people still talk trash. I dont really understand why in SC theres a thing called bm anyway.... If your competiting of course theres trash talk.
Of course. Korean progamers return to their houses and probably complain about a loss or act bad manner, but I'm considering the public display of the game.
Yes, there will be trash talk in competition and it is unavoidable. It may even happen live in a big finals tournament. However, what I'm concerned about is if this trash talk will be elevated and praised by organizations running the tournaments - like if you don't trash talk, you're not playing the full game.
Everyone got worked up over the Flash overlay during the memorable and atrociously run MSL finals between Flash and Jaedong since people thought it brought e-sports to the realm of WWE. This is what I'm personally against in terms of developing competitive games in the west.
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Canada11479 Posts
If, (that's a big if) there is e-sports outside of Korea, it will probably have more trash talking. But I would really hope it would never turn into WWE. I think it's idiotic with those grown men- now consider it coming from nerdy teens?
Essentially this:
On April 25 2010 08:52 Xxio wrote:
Korean pros are that, professionals, and they act like it. Classy and baller.
Some teenage nerds in the U.S. raging over losing something that requires minimal skill doesn't make it entertaining imo.
Jaedong's killer stare > any bm ceremony/yelling
I really think people like Tasteless and Day[9] would do far more e-sports then any raging teen. The subculture of gaming may think the trash talking is tough stuff, but I think it will always be a very insular community and never have a chance to break out.
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Ummm yeah if by bad mannered you mean trash talking, than it is very common amongst competitive US gaming. But the trash talking isn't really meant as something serious and it is for most part a way for teams to get themselves pumped up. "THESE GUYS TRASH, CMON GUYS". That's very common. The fighting game scene does it a lot and its our way of having fun. If you take it personal and feel like crying than you must be new. Also FPS =/= Fighting =/= RTS. You'll find that in FPS trash talking is more common amongst many of the scenes simply because of the type of game it is.
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On April 25 2010 08:56 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 08:52 OHtRUe wrote:
Uh in america BM isn't thought of as bad. Really trash talk is VERYYYYYYYY common among competitive gaming in NA most notably MLG. Really though its regulated, but its apart of the game. If you get bothered by it you shouldn't be competiting in the first place. Everyones friendly and people still talk trash. I dont really understand why in SC theres a thing called bm anyway.... If your competiting of course theres trash talk. Of course. Korean progamers return to their houses and probably complain about a loss or act bad manner, but I'm considering the public display of the game. Yes, there will be trash talk in competition and it is unavoidable. It may even happen live in a big finals tournament. However, what I'm concerned about is if this trash talk will be elevated and praised by organizations running the tournaments - like if you don't trash talk, you're not playing the full game. Everyone got worked up over the Flash overlay during the memorable and atrociously run MSL finals between Flash and Jaedong since people thought it brought e-sports to the realm of WWE. This is what I'm personally against in terms of developing competitive games in the west.
Uh i dont know if you know about MLG, but theres trash talk every single major tournament with major sponsors.. Take in mind though that the Officials arn't forcing them to trash talk it's that there competitive side is showing and there letting it out.The main point though is that its pretty hard to trash talk in SC (unless you litterally type it out) so i dont think it will ever be a problem for SC in general in the NA scene.
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Yeah, FPS players are generally low-life trash. =/ There should be regulations prohibiting BM in public tournaments. If we want SC2 to be a professional sport in the west, then we should hope that it will be run professionally.
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^ Why would they prohibit it? Trash talking raises hype. It pleases the crowd and they love it. SC2 being as professional as Korea will depend on the players and not the tournament organizers.
Unless I'm retarded I do know of many top US players who behave like Idra. Most of them are very well mannered and can provide a good match without telling the other player to go fuck himself.
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I think that one thing to consider is the plain and simply different people playing RTS. Its no secret that the FPS and Fighting game communities are generally made up of less calm and mature people. RTS is a lot more like Chess than a gladiator sorta thing. Having such a nature, the type of people that are top level RTS players tend to not be complete assholes. To be on the top of an RTS community, you gotta be pretty damn brilliant, and you have to have incredibly solid work ethic. Unlike FPS games where you rely on a team to practice, RTS lets you practice virtually nonstop because you don't need to coordinate with a team and then find another team.
To add, the current RTS community is not bad by any means. The European and American WC3/SC1 communities are really not that bad at all. Perhaps when you compare them to people who aren't ALLOWED to be even remotely rude, sure. But considering the fact that people don't have a reason to be nice, yet act the way they currently do, I'd say we're good.
There will of course be bad mannered scum of the earth players. But they won't be top players. They never have been and they never will be.
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What players say and do when they're playing with their friends or whatever is their own business, but I think anyone who believes in e-sports should agree that this kind of behavior should be greatly frowned upon in public broadcasts.
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@ Mohdoo Yup. Pretty much.
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On April 25 2010 08:46 Froadac wrote:
It depends on how the sponsors set it up. Hockey and WWE are set up in ways that encourage this sort of 'BM'. (Strange to use it out of context) If let's say, AMD sponsors it, and makes it seem very professional, it would be different from if a different corporation sponsors it and portrays it in a different light.
Hockey as in the NHL? Because, just, no. That's not even a little true. Professional hockey players are the classiest athletes in the world, bar none. What could possibly make you think that?
I think it's unfortunate, but BM players like Idra will only help the game get popular in the West. I don't know if full-on WWF style grudge matches and trash talk are the way to go, but you 'mericans sure do like your drama.
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I doubt this will happen with SC2. Read @Mohdoo post above why.
Also I think you guys are worrying for nothing. Most of our top US players are not like the top CS, Halo and WoW teams. Sure we have Idra and we'll probably have more but they are not many. Looking at the tournament in the SC2 tourney forums with the US players in it they there hasn't been many cases where players get into huge trash talks and ruins the fun.
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OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
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On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
Also, consider that American audiences are different from our fellow Koreans in terms of cultural behaviors as well. The general American audiences want big personalities and big talk with flashy stages and pre-game trash talk.
wrong.
i do not want this crap. i don't watch WWE, and i wouldn't watch pro sc2 if they acted like morons either.
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Canada11479 Posts
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses.
And I suppose would be the point of contention- what do we mean by trash talking? Your basketball example, I would be perfectly fine with if translated to SC2. If it's the FPS trash talk diarrhea of "fag, nigger, jew, etc" Then I would have nothing to do with it (imagine if your professional sportsmen doing that to each other.)
But as most of that diarrhea is limited to the lower levels of play, I guess there would be less to worry about.
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On April 25 2010 09:29 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
Also, consider that American audiences are different from our fellow Koreans in terms of cultural behaviors as well. The general American audiences want big personalities and big talk with flashy stages and pre-game trash talk. wrong. i do not want this crap. i don't watch WWE, and i wouldn't watch pro sc2 if they acted like morons either.
Oh so you are speaking on behalf of the American audience? Sorry but you are in the minority. Look how popular WWE and MMA are or shows like the Jersey Shore. People love that stuff and to try and say that his statement is wrong is just ignorant.
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Christ you people are sheltered. I get annoyed by BM too from time to time, but you guys are acting as if trash talk is the end of the world. Rudeness happens, deal with it.
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On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company.
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I've never heard of any gaming competition allowing talk like that (they want to broadcast this stuff to as wide an audience as possible including minors who make up a huge chunk). In professional sports they don't allow that as well, unsportsman like conduct anyone? I wasn't meaning profanity just telling someone how bad they are or just making little comments when they screw up is what I meant in my post. Like if someone suicides there army into defenses saying wow nice attack genius, or something like that. But profanity and racial slurs should absolutely be disqualification. I've heard halo players swear a lot, they get warnings, as long as it's not directed at the other team, like saying fuck or oh shit when you get killed.
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On April 25 2010 09:29 danl9rm wrote:
wrong.
i do not want this crap. i don't watch WWE, and i wouldn't watch pro sc2 if they acted like morons either.
Top US SC2 players don't act like morons. You make it sound as if we do not have top US players already. Check out the tournament forums. ITL, CraftCup, Triple Strike, GosuCoaching Weekly and etc where the top US players compete. Essentially they are the ones who are going to be competing at major tournaments in the US if we eventually get those. Idra doesn't count for all of them.
On April 25 2010 09:33 Falling wrote:
And I suppose would be the point of contention- what do we mean by trash talking? Your basketball example, I would be perfectly fine with if translated to SC2. If it's the FPS trash talk diarrhea of "fag, nigger, jew, etc" Then I would have nothing to do with it (imagine if your professional sportsmen doing that to each other.)
But as most of that diarrhea is limited to the lower levels of play, I guess there would be less to worry about.
Trash talking in the US is done for the sole purpose of intimidating your opponents and making yourself look good and can be done in a humorous way as well which is what the crowd loves. Sure trash talking can form of insult but its not meant like that and players usually end up shaking hands and drinking beer together after that since its all done for the fun of the game.
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On April 25 2010 09:43 segfix wrote:
Christ you people are sheltered. I get annoyed by BM too from time to time, but you guys are acting as if trash talk is the end of the world. Rudeness happens, deal with it.
Again, at least I am very aware that trash talk is inevitable.
The issue is whether or not trash talk will be exemplified as part of the professional competition and encouraged pregame.
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On April 25 2010 09:04 NeVeR wrote:
Yeah, FPS players are generally low-life trash. =/ There should be regulations prohibiting BM in public tournaments. If we want SC2 to be a professional sport in the west, then we should hope that it will be run professionally.
lolololololol. Im sorry, but starcraft is the only esport game in the world where people are this mannered.
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On April 25 2010 09:45 GenoZStriker wrote:
Trash talking in the US is done for the sole purpose of intimidating your opponents and making yourself look good and can be done in a humorous way as well which is what the crowd loves. Sure trash talking can form of insult but its not meant like that and players usually end up shaking hands and drinking beer together after that since its all done for the fun of the game.
Yeah. I don't know about you, but intimidating opponents in not my definition of 'fun of the game'.
I don't get terribly thrown off by it and I certainly won't throw any tantrums about BM players, but seriously.
Trash talk is only 'fun of the game' for the player doing it. The player on the receiving end is going to be annoyed at best if he isn't into that sort of stuff. Rivalries and drama are not why I play videogames and I can't imagine that's the case for most of the pro players either.
That aside, it's childish as hell.
Intimidate me with your play if you so desire, not with 'your mom' jokes or smack talk.
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On April 25 2010 09:49 OHtRUe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 09:04 NeVeR wrote:
Yeah, FPS players are generally low-life trash. =/ There should be regulations prohibiting BM in public tournaments. If we want SC2 to be a professional sport in the west, then we should hope that it will be run professionally. lolololololol. Im sorry, but starcraft is the only esport game in the world where people are this mannered.
Can you explain the relevance in what you just said? All that you have established is that the Starcraft community has much better manners than other communities. Is the implication that as a result of this, we should be less mannered?
Judging by your comment, and your choosing to begin your post with "lolololololol", you just proved our point. The way things are now is great.
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Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company.
I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican.
The live audiences are probably the ones you have to worry about! chanting USA USA USA lol
but seriously it not like were gonna have it where the players can hear the commentators and only the Chinese players can understand them, now that would be BM!
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On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote + Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican.
So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations..
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I think trash talk is fine and spices things up to a certain degree, by no means do i think chat should be banned in games because seeing chat is interesting as a spectator. It lets you know more about the player and their personality and honestly, people like idra that you love to hate really help the sport as a whole. Obviously if people are using racial slurs that should be penalized but, I dont think there is a professional game that allows that in any genre anyways so Im not sure why that is brought up.(maybe im wrong?)
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On April 25 2010 09:52 DarQraven wrote:
The player on the receiving end is going to be annoyed at best if he isn't into that sort of stuff.
It really depends on how you personally deal with it. I have friends who are big trash talkers during the game and I have played Brawl tournaments as well where players talk shit non stop but at the end of it I just laugh and focus on my game. With time you learn to ignore them. Ofcourse if I lose I might feel pissed depending far the person has gone but if I win the satisfactions is even great. And like I said in the end its all about the fun of the game and people never mean what they say. Same
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Just cause people dont talk in game doesnt mean they dont talk out of game, you should see garena chat vs some korean/chinese and russian/german teams, it can get pretty unmannered.
also manner doesnt exactly mean telling someone to go fuck themselves, it could be refusing to play on their hosts, delaying them just because you want to, not allowing barred players, or purposely taking rules out of context.
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In short, trash-talk and cockyness is usually damn entertaining.
Either you love it, or you love to hate it, and it's easy to just ignore if you really don't care. But more importantly, players should be able to behave however they want towards eachother. Of course there are boundaries, like in real life, but fierce rivalry matches are always gonna bring in the biggest crowd.
There's a difference between friendlies and championship matches, lets keep it that way.
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I was thinking about this the other day too. The thought of people like the alpha male cocky Marvel vs. Capcom 2 crowd getting hyped over SC makes me shudder.
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Sportsmanship is important, it encourages kids to not be sore losers. Parents see this which is why they encourage sports.
If there is no sportsmanship parents will not allow their kids to play competitively, and the (e)sport will phase out, with no support from underneath.
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I think spectators should be watching the game the player is playing instead of the player. There is no need for regulations against BM, just let people be themselves and the choice of who to be a fan of is that much easier.
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If anything, the perception that gamers are oversensitive uptight nerds is hurting esports way more than trash talk.
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when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone.
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^ "Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west"
It happens in China as well when we talk about the same games US players trash talk during with games like DotA and Counter-Strike. You are right the argument isn't valid at all. Europe is also not a nation to play innocent. At the WCG 2009 CS Grand Final the Polish and the Swedes where trash talking each other (LOL they don't understand each other), but because it wasn't in English no one knew what was going on till the chat was translated and people figured out they'd been trash talking the whole game.
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SWING BATTA BATTA BATTA < baseball
3 guys jumping in the air bellslapping each other < football
100 people waving shinny foam bats behind the away teams goal during free throws < basket ball
people chanting USA < olympics
well I guess we just dont have any professional sports in the us lolz
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On April 25 2010 09:04 NeVeR wrote:
Yeah, FPS players are generally low-life trash. =/ There should be regulations prohibiting BM in public tournaments. If we want SC2 to be a professional sport in the west, then we should hope that it will be run professionally.
As bad as it sounds, Its true. I consider competitive gaming here a lost cause TBH.
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What does professional mean? :/
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Yeah a lot of people also quit because they get beat down so much playing HoN/DoTA. I'm pretty much the only one that says GG and good luck in games, and doesn't blame my own team.
I think professionals should be used to trash talking though so I don't think its a problem there. What the problem is I think is people BM after the game is over and making up excuses for losing and not gg'ing.
Professionals are still professionals in the end, you can't act like a someone who can't control their emotions. This happens in any sport, no matter how much trash talk there is, the players congratulate each other at the end. Putting aside what happened before because its only a part of game, not anything more. Otherwise you just give the e-sport a bad image.
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On April 25 2010 10:22 GenoZStriker wrote:
What does professional mean? :/
It means you get paid to do it.
That's about it.
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Lets just hope that the 'foreign' scene's "gg", "gl"etc... formality doesn't turn into another Korean censor fest.
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Seeing as I'll never be a pro player I don't really care what they enforce there either way. I won't be exposed to it, except for watching streams and such.
However, what example the pros set WILL have an effect on the general online population, especially if SC2 becomes as big as this thread suggests.
Right now, if some guy on bnet acts like a moron during a match, he'll be considered BM. In some way, that's probably going to come back to him, some day. Even if it's only the fact that there is a concensus that he's BM, that could be enough.
However, if immature BS like that is common, even encouraged among pro players, what moral high ground do we 'regular' players even have over these little dirtbags?
Are you guys really looking forward to countless ladder matches being riddled by opponents taunting and smacktalking all the time? Do we want the counterstrike crowd in here?
I must say I rather enjoy being able to play a game without having my sexuality questioned or being told what my mom did last night with my current opponent.
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I wouldn't worry about it.
There will never be a big sc2 scene in the west. Once the DLC starts rolling in, the "scene" will be no different than activision's other products, namely call of duty. A bunch of people will play it online and hate each other, but that's about it (as far as anything good).
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On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone.
None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad.
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Well I see that everyone is just dodging the points I made in concerns to Trash talk vs professionalism. BTW Comparing FPS players skill level to Starcraft is like comparing apples and oranges, there just totally different. There are some truly skilled, amazing, and mature fps players out there. For that matter is watching all these Korean players avoid saying they think there team is going to win handily a sign of maturity or just a scared child mentality? I'm sure there are examples of both. Being cocky and immature does not dictate skill, thats just false! It may hold some statistical advantage but will never be true down to the individual. IM SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE STARCRAFT ELITISM THOUGH, all these people thinking that the top starcraft players are just more skilled in general, than all other gamers is foolish!
There are fps teams that practice 14 hours a day, have incredible teamwork and at times seem telepathic in predicting there opponents movements. Go watch some pro halo players vod's! Go watch the mlg championships for the last few seasons before you judge there skill level so harshly.
BM isn't whats gonna hurt SC2 as a western esport ELITISM IS! I can't think of a bigger turnoff to fans and future players.
Obviously, top starcraft players have way better multitasking than an FPS player but to say there just all around superior is sickening. And believe me there is some multitasking involved in fps, most top players have to keep track of spawn times for weapons, how there positioned and how the opponent is positioned affects player's respawns, keep track of there teamates locations so they dont get caught alone, while effectively communicating these things to there team and trying to kill the person shooting at them. And it's all lightning fast decision making.
DEATH TO ELITISM!! theres no bigger turnoff than a complete snob
Also there is a lot more on the line at FPS these teams play in tournaments for a lot more money, they pay to go to them and to enter, and they play for 6 hours nonstop in the tournaments, often much longer if they do good, so to say they lack mental fortitude or endurance or so many other important skill is obviously an opinion born out of pure ignorance.
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Activision tries to market C&C VoDs like the WWE. Though it comes across sounding rediculous and forced too me. What do they think injecting competative gaming with testosterone will make it cool? I think the commentators have a lot of influence on the feel of any sport, and the players add to it too during interviews.
I like Diggity's commentary style the most so far for e-sports. A lot of the time it can come across timid like golf when there's no action going on, but he explains each player's moves in depth and the possibilities along with it which subtly pulls you into the head of these players sometimes. Then when one of the players does something special, like a crazy scarab shot or lurker trap going off, his voice increases 100x in intensity, without screaming into his mic and nerdgasming like a lot of other commentators. and I think that's exactly how you should be commentating this kind of thing.
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Who cares if people are BM?
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Take a look at boxing, even thou it was kinda popular, after mohammed ali stepped in with all his trash talking, it actually made the sport more popular. I'm not saying i like trash talk but it does bring attention.
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On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad.
Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap.
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The King of Kong (2007) the most successful video game documentary ever was based around the feud between two players. I mean there's not much to watch when you see someone playing Donkey Kong but this was very entertaining. There's no story if its just a game. People are the story, people are what the others come to watch not the game. The game is an excuse. You want to watch the "people" who are better then you. Nobody would show up to watch two computers play against each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_of_kong
Watching this is really eye opening too. It's shocking how every generation repeats itself in the exact same manner only with different games.
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On April 25 2010 11:08 segfix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad. Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap.
Where do I say that every single top level player is always BM free? I even say that all top level players tend to BM all the time. What I am referring to are the general tendencies. The entire reason this thread exists is the enormous difference between "top level console" and "top level RTS" manner. Even when you remove the social factors that go with being from different countries, the kind of manner you see in top American SC1 players is radically different from that seen in top American Halo. Now explain to me how what I am saying is incorrect. The whole point of this thread is the worrying going on about the manners in SC2 changing from how they were in SC1. My argument is that they will not change. The best RTS players will continue to show themselves for who they tend to be. And these top RTS players will generally speaking be much more mannered than the top Halo or whatever players.
You make it sound like I am the only person pointing out the differences between the two communities. The entire thread is BASED on that being generally accepted as true. Where my opinion comes in is my rationalization of why this is. To me, looking at how the type of mannerisms and conduct seen in top level console games is also seen on a "above average, but not professional" level of RTS, it just makes sense.
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If any game is to become widespread, it will have to have organized rules and not be BM. The game examples you gave are not anywhere near what Starcraft is to Korea. In order for the game to be accepted by the general public, it is expected that the players act and look mature. It's that way for even the most violent sports. You may think BM is funny and all, but it distinguishes it between some kid entertainment and something to be taken seriously.
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any decent self respecting tournament/league event will have rules against BM.
every culture has some people who will be BM. most will never be good, the few that are must learn to constrain themselves or will suffer the consequences.
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Once again, I guess I need to bold it..
Who cares if people BM?
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I think some levels of BM aren't bad, but at the same time BM can be very detrimental to a league trying to appear "professional." If players are cursing at each at the end of the game and that chat is being publicized to the world that won't be good. At the same time, I know there are people out there who wish Koreans were more publicly vocal, instead of secretly. Things should definitely be regulated during the broadcast and fines, etc. should be in place in case something were to happen. Players should behave professionally, but shouldn't be denied a personality or the right to be human. Smack/trash talk, bm is one thing, but being vulgar and cursing each other is something else.
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I don't think it matters as long as there are clear rules and they are enforced.
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On April 25 2010 10:02 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote: Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican. So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations..
How are they not well mannered? They all shake hands at the end of each series instead of saying GG through the computer. Seriously if you think trash talk is bad shows how incredibly well mannered this community it is and it shows because how boring the scene is. There was a reason FBH got popular and it was because he had a personal edge and isn't a robot unlike all the other korean players.
If you think good ol trash talk is bad i'm kinda wondering if you ever played sports at all as a kid or had any sort of siblings or close friends? Seriously theres a reason why its called competition and when you compete theres usually trash talk around because of the emotion involved.
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LOL.
Elitism. Well, I mean, if you're a starcraft fan-girl, it's not like you're going to be rooting for top CS players more than top SC players.
That's just a part of loving the game: championing the players who know how to play so well at the game that you love so much.
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On April 25 2010 12:15 OHtRUe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 10:02 Endymion wrote:On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote: Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican. So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations.. How are they not well mannered? They all shake hands at the end of each series instead of saying GG through the computer. Seriously if you think trash talk is bad shows how incredibly well mannered this community it is and it shows because how boring the scene is. There was a reason FBH got popular and it was because he had a personal edge and isn't a robot unlike all the other korean players. If you think good ol trash talk is bad i'm kinda wondering if you ever played sports at all as a kid or had any sort of siblings or close friends? Seriously theres a reason why its called competition and when you compete theres usually trash talk around because of the emotion involved.
Your argument regarding FBH would have some level of merit if FBH was the most popular player. However, FBH is not the most popular player, and it turns out that the players with the best performances tend to be the most popular. So there goes that. FBH got popular, sure, no one denies that. Nor do people deny the entertainment factor that Idra contributes. There isn't much harm in there being the occasional BM guy or someone who dances after matches. But if everyone is like that, it loses credibility and people lose respect for the sport.
I think the real issue here is that you simply can't grasp the fact that there are so many people prefer strong play over strong emotions. If you want to watch trash talk and disputes, go watch a reality show on MTV. And once again, no one is saying zero bad manner. What people are voicing their concern over is it reaching the disgusting levels that it has reached in the console communities. The console community is built primarily by a much younger audience. As people grow older, we tend to not be so entertained by people yelling at each other and being rude. It gets old. Its dull. There is only so much you can hear. Whereas the intricacies of strategy and play often times feel infinite. That is where the real entertainment comes from for the older and more mature audience. But like I said, I love Idra and FBH being a part of the community. They add a great spice. But a 32 person tournament of nothing but Idra clones? Good lord, please no!
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On April 25 2010 11:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Well I see that everyone is just dodging the points I made in concerns to Trash talk vs professionalism. BTW Comparing FPS players skill level to Starcraft is like comparing apples and oranges, there just totally different. There are some truly skilled, amazing, and mature fps players out there.
I really hope you don't mean on the consoles.
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You should always respect your opponent, regardless of sport or activity, because without them you are nothing. You cannot call yourself the greatest player of Starcraft, if you have no-one to play with.
It's interesting you bring up the WWE and their use of exaggerated promos to increase feud potential and interest. The UFC is obviously it's biggest competition but it's continually stated that the UFC would love to be able to create feuds and stories, in the way the WWE is capable of. Obviously it's never truly possible as it's real but if it were capable, it would draw a far bigger crowd. Brock Lesnar gets major heat and is a HUGE monetary success because he's a former wrestler and has a great story, about him proving himself as a real fighter. The majority of fighters aren't like that though, the same can be applied to all other fighting sports.
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Banning ceremonies was the worst thing KESPA ever did.
Let the players have fun and show their personality.
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On April 25 2010 12:02 bokchoi wrote:
I think some levels of BM aren't bad, but at the same time BM can be very detrimental to a league trying to appear "professional." If players are cursing at each at the end of the game and that chat is being publicized to the world that won't be good. At the same time, I know there are people out there who wish Koreans were more publicly vocal, instead of secretly. Things should definitely be regulated during the broadcast and fines, etc. should be in place in case something were to happen. Players should behave professionally, but shouldn't be denied a personality or the right to be human. Smack/trash talk, bm is one thing, but being vulgar and cursing each other is something else.
Yeah all the trash talk sure damages football's popularity in the US
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On April 25 2010 12:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:15 OHtRUe wrote:On April 25 2010 10:02 Endymion wrote:On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote: Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican. So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations.. How are they not well mannered? They all shake hands at the end of each series instead of saying GG through the computer. Seriously if you think trash talk is bad shows how incredibly well mannered this community it is and it shows because how boring the scene is. There was a reason FBH got popular and it was because he had a personal edge and isn't a robot unlike all the other korean players. If you think good ol trash talk is bad i'm kinda wondering if you ever played sports at all as a kid or had any sort of siblings or close friends? Seriously theres a reason why its called competition and when you compete theres usually trash talk around because of the emotion involved. Your argument regarding FBH would have some level of merit if FBH was the most popular player. However, FBH is not the most popular player, and it turns out that the players with the best performances tend to be the most popular. So there goes that. FBH got popular, sure, no one denies that. Nor do people deny the entertainment factor that Idra contributes. There isn't much harm in there being the occasional BM guy or someone who dances after matches. But if everyone is like that, it loses credibility and people lose respect for the sport. I think the real issue here is that you simply can't grasp the fact that there are so many people prefer strong play over strong emotions. If you want to watch trash talk and disputes, go watch a reality show on MTV. And once again, no one is saying zero bad manner. What people are voicing their concern over is it reaching the disgusting levels that it has reached in the console communities. The console community is built primarily by a much younger audience. As people grow older, we tend to not be so entertained by people yelling at each other and being rude. It gets old. Its dull. There is only so much you can hear. Whereas the intricacies of strategy and play often times feel infinite. That is where the real entertainment comes from for the older and more mature audience. But like I said, I love Idra and FBH being a part of the community. They add a great spice. But a 32 person tournament of nothing but Idra clones? Good lord, please no!
Uh the best players in the world in pretty much every single sport of the world trash talk. I don't know where you get this thing that people can be good at the game and not be robots. Seriously if you ever played a FPS you would know why people trash talk because its fun and motivates you to play better if your on the recieving end or your giving it out. Or you could look past esports and look at actual sports and see how everyone talks trash.... Also i think you don't understand that trash talk isn't always 100% heated and serious.
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Whats wrong with BM? Wow, did your parents never teach you kids anything?
You like it when I rape you in a 1v1 and insult you in all sorts of ways? You like it when I pull cheesy plays on you while I act rude and obnoxious? Not everyone is a masochist. Some people prefer a modest, humble attitude in gaming.
Okay yes, we need some rebels and we need some saints on the scene. A certain level of BM is natural and adds some spice to the game, but the fact that people think there's nothing wrong with BM in a professional sport just shows what the world has come to.
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On April 25 2010 11:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 11:08 segfix wrote:On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad. Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap. Where do I say that every single top level player is always BM free? I even say that all top level players tend to BM all the time. What I am referring to are the general tendencies. The entire reason this thread exists is the enormous difference between "top level console" and "top level RTS" manner. Even when you remove the social factors that go with being from different countries, the kind of manner you see in top American SC1 players is radically different from that seen in top American Halo. Now explain to me how what I am saying is incorrect. The whole point of this thread is the worrying going on about the manners in SC2 changing from how they were in SC1. My argument is that they will not change. The best RTS players will continue to show themselves for who they tend to be. And these top RTS players will generally speaking be much more mannered than the top Halo or whatever players. You make it sound like I am the only person pointing out the differences between the two communities. The entire thread is BASED on that being generally accepted as true. Where my opinion comes in is my rationalization of why this is. To me, looking at how the type of mannerisms and conduct seen in top level console games is also seen on a "above average, but not professional" level of RTS, it just makes sense.
And what I'm saying is you and others in this thread are completely clueless about other gaming communities. I saw the fighting game community mentioned several times so I'll use that as an example. Competitive fighting games are played almost exclusively on arcade. This means that top-level players who practice 6+ hours a day are forced to physically interact with each other for long periods of time at arcade halls. This is unlike starcraft, where online play or even lan play can often be very impersonal. So the overall competitive fighting game community is very close-knit and pretty much all the top players are on friendly terms with one another. This allows them to "trash talk" each other with the understanding that it's all done in the spirit of friendly banter and hype. An ignorant outside observer viewing this on youtube would probably misconstrue this as BM. Think of it this way, if player 1 greeted player 2 by saying "sup noob", the situation would be entirely different depending on if they were friends. Now imagine if player 1 was Jangbi and player 2 Stork. I'm sure many of you would throw a fit about it. You guys just need to grow some thicker skin and get over it, that's all.
On April 25 2010 12:59 Xyik wrote:
Whats wrong with BM? Wow, did your parents never teach you kids anything?
You like it when I rape you in a 1v1 and insult you in all sorts of ways? You like it when I pull cheesy plays on you while I act rude and obnoxious? Not everyone is a masochist. Some people prefer a modest, humble attitude in gaming.
Okay yes, we need some rebels and we need some saints on the scene. A certain level of BM is natural and adds some spice to the game, but the fact that people think there's nothing wrong with BM in a professional sport just shows what the world has come to.
Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
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On April 25 2010 13:06 segfix wrote:
Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
Yep, the "Yeah, he was terrible, his mom probably taught him how to play. But I think the problem there was that I was with his mom last night, he probably didn't have enough time to get his retarded fingers into shape, the poor fat faggot" type of interview gets me every time.
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The people who trash talk just look silly to me. Show that you're the best by being the best, not acting like a 2-year-old.
When you play against yourself you start getting better at a much faster pace anyways
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On April 25 2010 13:11 Xyik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 13:06 segfix wrote:
Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
Yep, the "Yeah, he was terrible, his mom probably taught him how to play. But I think the problem there was that I was with his mom last night, he probably didn't have enough time to get his retarded fingers into shape, the poor fat faggot" type of interview gets me every time.
Exaggerate much? If anyone actually said that in an interview, I'd be more disappointed in the lack of wit than the profanity.
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On April 25 2010 13:06 segfix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 11:23 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 11:08 segfix wrote:On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad. Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap. Where do I say that every single top level player is always BM free? I even say that all top level players tend to BM all the time. What I am referring to are the general tendencies. The entire reason this thread exists is the enormous difference between "top level console" and "top level RTS" manner. Even when you remove the social factors that go with being from different countries, the kind of manner you see in top American SC1 players is radically different from that seen in top American Halo. Now explain to me how what I am saying is incorrect. The whole point of this thread is the worrying going on about the manners in SC2 changing from how they were in SC1. My argument is that they will not change. The best RTS players will continue to show themselves for who they tend to be. And these top RTS players will generally speaking be much more mannered than the top Halo or whatever players. You make it sound like I am the only person pointing out the differences between the two communities. The entire thread is BASED on that being generally accepted as true. Where my opinion comes in is my rationalization of why this is. To me, looking at how the type of mannerisms and conduct seen in top level console games is also seen on a "above average, but not professional" level of RTS, it just makes sense. And what I'm saying is you and others in this thread are completely clueless about other gaming communities. I saw the fighting game community mentioned several times so I'll use that as an example. Competitive fighting games are played almost exclusively on arcade. This means that top-level players who practice 6+ hours a day are forced to physically interact with each other for long periods of time at arcade halls. This is unlike starcraft, where online play or even lan play can often be very impersonal. So the overall competitive fighting game community is very close-knit and pretty much all the top players are on friendly terms with one another. This allows them to "trash talk" each other with the understanding that it's all done in the spirit of friendly banter and hype. An ignorant outside observer viewing this on youtube would probably misconstrue this as BM. Think of it this way, if player 1 greeted player 2 by saying "sup noob", the situation would be entirely different depending on if they were friends. Now imagine if player 1 was Jangbi and player 2 Stork. I'm sure many of you would throw a fit about it. You guys just need to grow some thicker skin and get over it, that's all. Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:59 Xyik wrote:
Whats wrong with BM? Wow, did your parents never teach you kids anything?
You like it when I rape you in a 1v1 and insult you in all sorts of ways? You like it when I pull cheesy plays on you while I act rude and obnoxious? Not everyone is a masochist. Some people prefer a modest, humble attitude in gaming.
Okay yes, we need some rebels and we need some saints on the scene. A certain level of BM is natural and adds some spice to the game, but the fact that people think there's nothing wrong with BM in a professional sport just shows what the world has come to. Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
To your first point, that makes a lot of sense, thank you for clarifying that. A friend of mine is into the competitive scene for MVC2, and the way you describe it is very similar. I think it is easy, however, to get the (false) impression that I and others had because fighting games and the like are widely played by young kids. Highschool/Junior high kids tend to be jackasses. So when we see them act like that, then competitive fighting game guys talking the same, I suppose we don't give it a second thought. But thank you for correcting me.
For your second point, I think a lot of people should read interviews done in WC3. I am someone who kept up real close with both WC3 and SC1.
WC3 is unique in how the top top Korean/Chinese players are equal to the Europeans. Because of this, they are interviewed just as often. The Korean interviews are just like you have come to expect from SC1. "I will try my best. I will do all I can" blah blah blah. Fucking most boring thing ever. HOWEVER, The Europeans are a completely different story. They'll talk about balance, they'll talk about how Night Elf is fucking imba and stuff like that, yet they are still calm and relaxed. Its very similar to how you describe the fighting game scene. Sure, they say they were really mad about losing. But they also talk about how they feel they could have done better and they just got outplayed. It can really go both ways.
My personal prediction is that the SC2 scene will be almost identical to WC3 in its prime. China = Korea = Europe/USA. The USA very rarely had good players though. I think SC2 will have a lot of good Americans. I think Koreans are only so untouchable right now because they have had the best training conditions for the longest time and they do a good job at keeping it that way. WC3 was different. They couldn't hold their monopoly. But anyway, I'm getting off topic.
Returning to my main point, I think that it is possible to be personable yet respectful. ToD would always say stuff like "Yeah, I lost in the quarter finals, but what can ya do, right? Night Elf is too imba" and then he'd laugh jokingly and continue the interview. And others would say more "nice" things. Then the boring as fuck Koreans that shouldn't even bother being interviewed. It doesn't have to be either yelling obsceneties and racial slurs...or...Koreans. There is an in between, and it was very clearly present during the peak of WC3. I think this will be how SC2 is.
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A lower caliber play where there's a clear rivalry is more entertaining than some uptight/polite duel between super pros.
In the first case, you will pick a player, the agressor or the victim, and root for him up to the end, cheering silently when there's a turn around favoring whoever you picked. The later is just about watching clean execution... Now obviously you want both but emotion as a few already mentionned it is fairly important for the "entertainment" aspect.
E-sport or not I really dont care anyway, too old for this, just playing for FUN.
Edit:
Nice post Mohdoo
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On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
The issue
Compared to Korea where there are regulations against excessive public bad manner and crude ceremonies, will the western competitive RTS scene allow such behavior just because it may make the game more interesting?
With a lot more "scandals" involved in a topic you get lots more viewers, so if the rules are simply left to companies who want to make money they will encourage such stuff. Just look at the devolution of the quality of television ... at least here in Germany. We only had state run TV until 1984 and it was a good time for quality TV. Now we have lots of private channels and they are trying to outdo each other with scandalous shows (nudity, violence and military alway help) while keeping the cost low (lots and lots of repetitions). Back in the "good old days" we never had nudity on TV, but now you can tune in and get naked women posing for phone sex every day and even the "society magazines" are looking for that and show it to us during daytime. The big question is: Has this made our lives better? Not really. Has it made money? Certainly!
On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
competitive WoW
That is one of the things which ruined the game for me, because they had to change the classes so much to make each one of them challenging for competitive gaming, that they totally forgot the main thing: "us against the monsters". Catering to PvP-junkies took a lot of effort and ruined the story.
On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
Also, consider that American audiences are different from our fellow Koreans in terms of cultural behaviors as well. The general American audiences want big personalities and big talk with flashy stages and pre-game trash talk. Though Koreans do have flashy stages and insane intros and over the top ceremonies from time to time, for a competition you can see that the players display themselves in a humble manner with handshakes and bows before each match.
My concern is that though I admit the world may never nerd out with the rest of us and raise StarCraft 2 to the realm of high competitive art, a flashy over the top bad manner big personality extravaganza is something I fear will shed an even more disturbing light on what competitive gaming is all about.
For discussion:
Input from players around the world is greatly appreciated on this matter. What do you think will happen if StarCraft 2 really blows up in the West? Essentially WWE for gamers, or a respectable competitive scene?
Note: I admit the most I've seen with competitive FPS games is random clips on youtube and random matches. I encourage anyone to correct me on any misconceptions I have, whether it be competitive FPS or western and asian culture
Starcraft is no Wrestling and you dont know who is watching and how they react to trash talking. Some might actually mistake that for real and get a false perspective of the whole scene. The easiest example here would be first person shooters and the ever present argument that these games make kids more likely to start a massacre at their school. Lets not have that with Starcraft. Lets keep the behaviour more like that of chess players, friendly and professional, because too much emotion will ruin concentration and wreck the game anyway.
The US-Army already fight their wars as a kind of video game, but real wars should be brutal and bloody, so you dont start them lightly. If a new generation of young people grows up accustomed to fighting wars on a screen they will be more likely to press a button to kill someone from far far away. That should never be taken lightly, but as we all know from practicing the game: The more you practice, the less you have to/will think about certain actions ...
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That's because bad manners are inversely correlated with skills. Foreigners suck and nothing will ever change that fact.
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There isn't a need to keep BM down. There's only a need to remove the anonymity of the internet, and the current Foreign scene does this well enough.
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i think that huge problem will the that korea is a small country united states is a large, this creates problems. 2 there is only one massive main city in south korea, there a serveral in united states. 3 buissnesses are just not willing to throw out so much money to something that people wouldnt just watch on thier television, aka pro sport teams.
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Bad Manner is fun, ads another fun element to the game. Everyone who thinks otherwise can go F*** themselves rofl
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I think of a lot of people don't really understand to what extent behavior can be considered BM.
Disrespecting an opponent and not acknowledging his or her skill is BM. Insulting others is BM. Obviously friendly banter, rivalry and joking is not BM. Expressing opinions in a humble and civilized manner while giving credit to others and treating them the way they would like to be treated is how professional players should act 90% of the time. Of course however, there is time for disagreement and frustration. But there's a difference between saying 'I think marauders are OP, my opponent didn't play very well but he still won, I couldn't believe it' and saying 'Yeah, I could beat my opponent 10 times out of 10 if they would just balance marauders, that guy is a skill-less newb for abusing those units'.
This is something that's apparently not common place in American culture anymore? It's considered okay to disrespect others now for the price of entertainment?
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Drama brings in viewers. That's about it.
Besides, SC2 will never be big in the west, stop pretending it's going to be like NFL or the NBA. I doubt it'll even be bigger than CS or Halo.
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I think people are getting confused. In all of the sports that I know of the only trash talk that happens is in-game. Before the game they talk about strategies and the other team's strengths and weaknesses with the interviewers, afterwards they shake hands with the other team.
Also "swing batter batter batter" is a lot different to "f***ing noob camper!"
If anyone is heard openly swearing excessively, in a lot of sports they can be sent off.
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as someone else already stated there are 2 paths based on how it grows
a) either the teams/owners/organization makes things like the NBA
b) WWE-style waste of time
im gunna go with a being the most likely if you considerin WoW and its sponsored teams
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Prohibiting "BM"? That is one of the things I love about the LAN CS scene, there is a lot of passion. You don't get a lot of people that rage hardcore (lolcheck6), and I am perfectly fine with trash talking. It is part of the game, it happens in real sports too. Shake hands afterwards, but on the field, you are enemies. (By the way, at CS tournies I have never seen a team not shake hands with their opponents)
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Well its obvious with players like Idra the western scene is more crude. However, I think that if the players are on LAN, they will be more respectful to each other, and thats why you don't really see koreans raging, its also their culture but I think that even western players wouldn't rage in lan tournaments.
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EPT
